Black Crow

Heresy 201 and onward we go...

406 posts in this topic

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9 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

I agree.  Lots to say on this that i can't do on a phone , but yes- putting together something now that boils down to basically a Great War between the ancient GeoDawnians - that I think Qarth may be a remnant of - and Asshai.       It is similar to the popular theories and involves magic, but is focused more upon the lasting effects of empire building.  

Long story short, if the Undying are representatives of that old culture, I think they've seen their opportunity for a comeback...but so do the Red Lot, for related reasons in ancient days.  

To go back to the Undying of Qarth.  It seems to me that those who enter the Palace of Dust can be trapped or leave the shadows behind:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting . . .

 

When the palace of dust is burned down; some of those shades seem to have rejoined their original host:
 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

Dany had laughed when he told her. "Was it not you who told me warlocks were no more than old soldiers, vainly boasting of forgotten deeds and lost prowess?"

Xaro looked troubled. "And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. Ghost grass grows in the Garden of Gehane, phantom tortoises have been seen carrying messages between the windowless houses on Warlock's Way, and all the rats in the city are chewing off their tails. The wife of Mathos Mallarawan, who once mocked a warlock's drab moth-eaten robe, has gone mad and will wear no clothes at all. Even fresh-washed silks make her feel as though a thousand insects were crawling on her skin. And Blind Sybassion the Eater of Eyes can see again, or so his slaves do swear. A man must wonder." He sighed. "These are strange times in Qarth. And strange times are bad for trade. It grieves me to say so, yet it might be best if you left Qarth entirely, and sooner rather than later." Xaro stroked her fingers reassuringly. "You need not go alone, though. You have seen dark visions in the Palace of Dust, but Xaro has dreamed brighter dreams. I see you happily abed, with our child at your breast. Sail with me around the Jade Sea, and we can yet make it so! It is not too late. Give me a son, my sweet song of joy!"

 

So perhaps the shadows lurking in the background are the warlocks hidden in the windowless houses and blind Sybassion; eater of eyes can see again.   Dany is first show the false light, the splendor of wizards:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Beyond the doors was a great hall and a splendor of wizards. Some wore sumptuous robes of ermine, ruby velvet, and cloth of gold. Others fancied elaborate armor studded with gemstones, or tall pointed hats speckled with stars. There were women among them, dressed in gowns of surpassing loveliness. Shafts of sunlight slanted through windows of stained glass, and the air was alive with the most beautiful music she had ever heard.

A kingly man in rich robes rose when he saw her, and smiled. "Daenerys of House Targaryen, be welcome. Come and share the food of forever. We are the Undying of Qarth."

"Long have we awaited you," said a woman beside him, clad in rose and silver. The breast she had left bare in the Qartheen fashion was as perfect as a breast could be.

 

 

In reality, the King and woman clad in rose and silver are seated at the stone table in the next room surrounded by the shadows of the wizards of Qarth.  Who are they in the world outside the palace of dust?

Euron and the woman with pale hands come to mind as well as Qyburn:
 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IX

"No. Please. She never . . . I sang, I only sang . . ."

Lord Qyburn ran a hand up the Blue Bard's chest. "Does she take your nipples in her mouth during your love play?" He took one between his thumb and forefinger, and twisted. "Some men enjoy that. Their nipples are as sensitive as a woman's." The razor flashed, the singer shrieked. On his chest a wet red eye wept blood. Cersei felt ill. Part of her wanted to close her eyes, to turn away, to make it stop. But she was the queen and this was treason. Lord Tywin would not have turned away.

 

Qyburn who garbs himself in wizard's robes and appears to Cersei with bold blue eyes. 
 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IV

"I have informers sniffing after the Imp everywhere, Your Grace," said Qyburn. He had garbed himself in something very like maester's robes, but white instead of grey, immaculate as the cloaks of the Kingsguard. Whorls of gold decorated his hem, sleeves, and stiff high collar, and a golden sash was tied about his waist. "Oldtown, Gulltown, Dorne, even the Free Cities. Wheresoever he might run, my whisperers will find him."

 

 

...who once mocked a warlock's drab moth-eaten robe, has gone mad and will wear no clothes at all.

In the end it's Cersei who walks naked through the streets and goes mad. 

Edited by LynnS

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On 7/16/2017 at 9:51 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

George also seems to have set up a clause that gives allowance to "wise men" who can see through the artifice of a glamour

Even blind, wise men. (Aemon)

 I wonder if the Black Gate was purposely blinded in an attempt to bypass the security check. Supposedly one can not lie in front of a heart tree which makes a certain sense that an animated weirwood would be tasked with keeping the gate. (Coldhands knows the words but cannot pass.)  The Gate might then see the soul (or heart) of the being passing through? 

 

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On 15.7.2017 at 10:42 PM, Black Crow said:

unless of course the internet melts

So both of you have given up hope to read ADOS?

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7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

An interesting thought, but I'm not sure it aligns in practice; GRRM's Time interview seems to suggest that the nature of the wights reflects the magic that is animating them, rather than any personal quality within the soul of the resurrected. Were it otherwise, you'd think we'd see more variation in those raised north of the Wall.

True, there's no doubting its the magic, whether of ice or fire which has raised them; but its still their own souls which we see in the light rather than someone possessing them.

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1 hour ago, alienarea said:

So both of you have given up hope to read ADOS?

Nah, hope springs eternal

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15 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There is a half-formed thought that occurs to me on this business of the flames. There's an assumption, certainly so far as the cold wights are concerned, that the blue light represents possession by an unknown entity, whether that entity is a dark lord [sorry] or the weirnet or whatever, but that doesn't seem to be the case with the red flame.

What if both blue and red co-exist within the soul and when Thistle "sees" Varamyr, it is the cold side of Thistle's own soul that sees him. The absence of a red or blue flame shining through Coldhands' black eyes might then be explained by his being resurrected, but neither side of his soul being dominant.

What is the deal with Coldhand's black eyes?! The white walkers have blue eyes as well as the wights, so are we to conclude that ice magic is not to be credited for his resurrection? Melisandre has red eyes, but does Beric or Lady Stoneheart have red eyes? Shouldn't fire magic burn red in their eyes? None of the resurrected are truly alive. Their blood doesn't circulate even if it does run out of their bodies when pierced. Coldhand's blood is black. Melisandre's is black and smoking. Doesn't it seem like Coldhands condition is more like those resurrected by fire rather than by ice?

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

What is the deal with Coldhand's black eyes?! The white walkers have blue eyes as well as the wights, so are we to conclude that ice magic is not to be credited for his resurrection? Melisandre has red eyes, but does Beric or Lady Stoneheart have red eyes? Shouldn't fire magic burn red in their eyes? None of the resurrected are truly alive. Their blood doesn't circulate even if it does run out of their bodies when pierced. Coldhand's blood is black. Melisandre's is black and smoking. Doesn't it seem like Coldhands condition is more like those resurrected by fire rather than by ice?

I think FreyFamilyReunion is correct.  Upon death, the soul is split in two, with the dark aspect of the soul, the shadow, remaining attached to the body, while the light aspect departs. 

I think we are shown something of this in Tyrion's beserker dream:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

The wine, the food, the sun, the sway of the litter, the buzzing of the flies, all conspired to make Tyrion sleepy. So he slept, woke, drank. Illyrio matched him cup for cup. And as the sky turned a dusky purple, the fat man began to snore.

That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

 

Jon's dream:

Quote

 A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow," the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom.

 

It's the indiscriminate, destructive, blood-thirsty aspect of Jon's shadow self that he acts out in his dream.  The curious thing is that a gnarled hand seizes Jon roughly by the shoulder to shake him out of it.  Pecking at his chest where his heart is located reminding him that he is "Snow" and glaring at him balefully, with displeasure. 

It appears that someone with a gnarled hand is watching over Jon's dreams.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon I

Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"

Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put a hand on Jon's shoulder. "Come back to me after you've fathered a few bastards of your own, and we'll see how you feel."

Jon trembled. "I will never father a bastard," he said carefully. "Never!" He spat it out like venom.

 

@wolfmaid7  There is a subcontext in the above passage as well, when Benjen tells Jon to come back to him after he has fathered a few bastards of his own.  This is the feast where Robert takes Ned's place on Cat's arm and Robert is the other figure in the room known to have fathered a few bastards.    

 

Edited by LynnS

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9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

True, there's no doubting its the magic, whether of ice or fire which has raised them; but its still their own souls which we see in the light rather than someone possessing them.

I'm not so sure, because outside of the Other/wight horde, I don't think we have precedent for eyes that burn like stars--unless my mental image is greatly off base, I always took Mel's red eyes to be more mundane (relatively speaking) than the intensity of the wights' and the Others' burning eyes.

I'm also legitimately surprised that the notion that the wights have lost their free will is even a point of contention--that is the way they are presented from the moment Old Nan tells us of the Others raising the dead as an "army of the slain," and nothing in the subsequent text suggests otherwise.

If they were all Catelyn-esque wraiths carrying out the unfinished business and grudges of their life, their behavior and movements would be far more arbitrary and disorganized, and if they were just zombies seeking warm blooded life, they would have thrown themselves futilely against Mance's army.

Whether it be individual white walkers in the vicinity, a Night's Queen, a greenseer, the "collective" within the trees, something is directing their behavior.
 

17 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Faceless men,weirnet and red lot have one figure emerging and that figure looks awfully like the dead man with one eye and impaled by weirwood roots.

A man behind a curtain is starting to look rather good.

I don't really have a theory here, but I'll just spitball the observation that there is a connective tissue between the two that we've seen resurrected as fire wights, and the one we suspect could become a fire wight--that connective tissue is Lord Eddard.

With Jon and Catelyn it is blatant, but I'll also observe that Beric (in essence) died in service of Lord Eddard, attempting to fulfill an order to bring Gregor Clegane to justice.

As you note, Thoros was surprised that the Last Kiss resulted in a resurrection, so who's special here: Thoros, or Beric? Is it just random chance, after Dany's pyre, that the Last Kiss has now taken on magical potency? Maybe, but you'd think we'd be hearing many rumors out of Essos to that effect, as there must have been thousands of funerary rites performed by the red priests since AGOT.

Perhaps Beric was an instrument of the old gods, allowed to repeatedly come back to fulfill a task placed upon him by the blood of the Starks.

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Does anyone know where Beric was revived?  Thoros gets credit, but hollow hill is a place of weirwoods, and Thoros was surprised Beric came back.  Perhaps Beric came back by some other power, and Thoros just happened to be there.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think FreyFamilyReunion is correct.  Upon death, the soul is split in two, with the dark aspect of the soul, the shadow, remaining attached to the body, while the light aspect departs. 

I think we are shown something of this in Tyrion's beserker dream:

Jon's dream:

It's the indiscriminate, destructive, blood-thirsty aspect of Jon's shadow self that he acts out in his dream.  The curious thing is that a gnarled hand seizes Jon roughly by the shoulder to shake him out of it.  Pecking at his chest where his heart is located reminding him that he is "Snow" and glaring at him balefully, with displeasure. 

It appears that someone with a gnarled hand is watching over Jon's dreams.

@wolfmaid7  There is a subcontext in the above passage as well, when Benjen tells Jon to come back to him after he has fathered a few bastards of his own.  This is the feast where Robert takes Ned's place on Cat's arm and Robert is the other figure in the room known to have fathered a few bastards.    

 

That is a nice catch Lynn.Your right the only parallel I had seen was the Jon and Robert behavioral mirroring across the hall.But that was a cool catch.

35 minutes ago, Matthew. said:


As you note, Thoros was surprised that the Last Kiss resulted in a resurrection, so who's special here: Thoros, or Beric? Is it just random chance, after Dany's pyre, that the Last Kiss has now taken on magical potency? Maybe, but you'd think we'd be hearing many rumors out of Essos to that effect, as there must have been thousands of funerary rites performed by the red priests since AGOT.

Perhaps Beric was an instrument of the old gods, allowed to repeatedly come back to fulfill a task placed upon him by the blood of the Starks.

I won't say Ned is the the connective component because the same imagery appears with the Kindly man.I have said the underlining connection seems to be the Old gods who I believe are perpetrating aspects of the Red lot and the faceless men.....It is all the Old gods imo who have essentially hacked these religions with their magic.

Their reach maybe a bit more far reaching because of where weir wood pieces end up.

I don't believe either of them are special but  what's going on in the world is.I mean specificslly a lot more keys(Dragons,direwolves,trees and crows) finding their locks(Dany and the Stark bunch).

Edited by wolfmaid7

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think FreyFamilyReunion is correct.  Upon death, the soul is split in two, with the dark aspect of the soul, the shadow, remaining attached to the body, while the light aspect departs. 

I think we are shown something of this in Tyrion's beserker dream:

Jon's dream:

It's the indiscriminate, destructive, blood-thirsty aspect of Jon's shadow self that he acts out in his dream.  The curious thing is that a gnarled hand seizes Jon roughly by the shoulder to shake him out of it.  Pecking at his chest where his heart is located reminding him that he is "Snow" and glaring at him balefully, with displeasure. 

It appears that someone with a gnarled hand is watching over Jon's dreams.

@wolfmaid7  There is a subcontext in the above passage as well, when Benjen tells Jon to come back to him after he has fathered a few bastards of his own.  This is the feast where Robert takes Ned's place on Cat's arm and Robert is the other figure in the room known to have fathered a few bastards.    

 

I don't know if I can buy this right now. I am still adhering to the theory that the Starks and Daynes have specific legacies to act as shields for the realm, with the Daynes guarding the south from fire magic, and the Starks guarding the north from ice magic. The fiery sword that Jon wields in his dream is probably Ice, which is never described and only assumed to be made of ice. I think that assumption is incorrect based on the description of Dawn, the appearance of which sounds more like ice with it's milky white appearance and light reflecting properties. I am expecting the sword Ice to be dark and flaming in order to be a counter to ice magic.

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

I'm not so sure, because outside of the Other/wight horde, I don't think we have precedent for eyes that burn like stars--unless my mental image is greatly off base, I always took Mel's red eyes to be more mundane (relatively speaking) than the intensity of the wights' and the Others' burning eyes.

I'm also legitimately surprised that the notion that the wights have lost their free will is even a point of contention--that is the way they are presented from the moment Old Nan tells us of the Others raising the dead as an "army of the slain," and nothing in the subsequent text suggests otherwise.

If they were all Catelyn-esque wraiths carrying out the unfinished business and grudges of their life, their behavior and movements would be far more arbitrary and disorganized, and if they were just zombies seeking warm blooded life, they would have thrown themselves futilely against Mance's army.

Whether it be individual white walkers in the vicinity, a Night's Queen, a greenseer, the "collective" within the trees, something is directing their behavior.
 

I don't really have a theory here, but I'll just spitball the observation that there is a connective tissue between the two that we've seen resurrected as fire wights, and the one we suspect could become a fire wight--that connective tissue is Lord Eddard.

With Jon and Catelyn it is blatant, but I'll also observe that Beric (in essence) died in service of Lord Eddard, attempting to fulfill an order to bring Gregor Clegane to justice.

As you note, Thoros was surprised that the Last Kiss resulted in a resurrection, so who's special here: Thoros, or Beric? Is it just random chance, after Dany's pyre, that the Last Kiss has now taken on magical potency? Maybe, but you'd think we'd be hearing many rumors out of Essos to that effect, as there must have been thousands of funerary rites performed by the red priests since AGOT.

Perhaps Beric was an instrument of the old gods, allowed to repeatedly come back to fulfill a task placed upon him by the blood of the Starks.

I agree the wights have lost free will. They do retain some memories like Othor and Jafer of the layout of Castle Black, but something or someone is directing their actions.

As for Beric...I think Thoros has been giving the ritual of breathing fire into the dead, but with the return of magic into the realm it has only recently been working. The proximity to the hollow hill with it's weirwood throne might be helping, but I'm not so sure it's necessary. Over in Essos there has been a return of magic as well with no mention of weirwoods.

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35 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don't know if I can buy this right now. I am still adhering to the theory that the Starks and Daynes have specific legacies to act as shields for the realm, with the Daynes guarding the south from fire magic, and the Starks guarding the north from ice magic. The fiery sword that Jon wields in his dream is probably Ice, which is never described and only assumed to be made of ice. I think that assumption is incorrect based on the description of Dawn, the appearance of which sounds more like ice with it's milky white appearance and light reflecting properties. I am expecting the sword Ice to be dark and flaming in order to be a counter to ice magic.

I wasn't actually referring to the sword Jon wields.  He says it burns in his hand but the red mist suggests that the sword is drenched in blood.  It's Jon's character; the dark side of his soul that is playing out in his dream.  The blood-lust, or the lies and the lust that produces a bastard.  It's his bastardy that he resents in his dream and at the feast.

The bit that attracts my attention is that he is jarred out of that state by a gnarled hand on his shoulder and on waking Mormont's Raven is pecking at his chest  and then regards Jon disapprovingly with a baleful stare.

Benjen basically does the same thing with Jon at the feast, taking him by the shoulder.  The connective tissue here is Benjen = Mormont's Raven.    

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On 2017-7-18 at 9:01 AM, LynnS said:

I think we have to go East and look at Qarth.  The shadowlands may have more to do with Qarth than they do with Asshai.  Qarth is the oldest city left after the fall of the great empire.

The warlocks of Qarth are described as drinkers of shadows.  They consume the shades of those they trap in the palace of dust.

Do you think Qarth dates from before the fall of the Great Empire of the Dawn, like Asshai? That it was somehow spared Asshai's fate when the empire fell apart during the Long Night? It does have three walls, that may have helped...

I had never thought to link the current inhabitants of Qarth to the original Asshai'i, but it makes a lot of sense. The two port cities are not far apart and would have been part of the same Empire. Of course there would be a mixing of people from both places (if they were not the same to begin with). I wonder if all the Qarthi are related to the ancient Asshai'i, or if it's just the Undying and their priests (the warlocks and the little rat men)? They are the ones said to drink shadows, and shadow magic is associated with Asshai by many different sources. Maybe they are the last remnant of Asshai left in the world, the way the Targaryens are the last remnant of Valyria?

It really is too bad Dany never thought to visit the library while in Qarth...

On 2017-7-18 at 9:01 AM, LynnS said:

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys III

"Then I must heed Pyat Pree, and go to the warlocks."

The merchant prince sat up sharply. "Pyat Pree has blue lips, and it is truly said that blue lips speak only lies. Heed the wisdom of one who loves you. Warlocks are bitter creatures who eat dust and drink of shadows. They will give you naught. They have naught to give."

"I would not need to seek sorcerous help if my friend Xaro Xhoan Daxos would give me what I ask."

 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Ser Jorah Mormont came up beside them. "What power can they have if they live in that?"

"Heed the wisdom of those who love you best," said Xaro Xhoan Daxos, lounging inside the palanquin. "Warlocks are bitter creatures who eat dust and drink of shadows. They will give you naught. They have naught to give."

Aggo put a hand on his arakh. "Khaleesi, it is said that many go into the Palace of Dust, but few come out."

 

Funny that he would use the exact same sentence twice in two adjacent chapters. An editing mistake, or is this important information? 

If the warlocks and their dusty Undying are indeed the remnants of the great Asshai'i society, it would make sense that they are bitter. They were once very powerful, and (a bit like the pyromancers in Westeros) now they are often not even taken seriously, let alone feared and respected. Usually if someone is bitter it's because they have lost something and can't get over it.

The drinking of shadows, again, reminds us of shadowbinders and Asshai. This also makes me think of Mel, Mirri Maz Duur, and Marwyn, and I can't help but wonder if any/all of them ever visited Qarth and specifically the Undying. 

Lastly, blue lips speak only lies sounds an awful lot like crows are all liars

On 2017-7-18 at 9:01 AM, LynnS said:

There are similarities between the cold wights and the undying who consume and are animated by the corrupted blue heart served on the stone table

I almost wonder if the two are part of a whole: the Undying are but shadows, the essence of who these people once were, but ice wights are only the body. Both are animated by a blue force long after they should be dead. 

But why stop there? Clearly the Others are familiar with this force as well, and can use it capably to their advantage. They are described as mists and shadows, and are not mindless like the wights - so would they perhaps be the better counterpart to the Undying? Or, more intriguingly, are they too somehow related to the ancient inhabitants of Asshai?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

As for Beric...I think Thoros has been giving the ritual of breathing fire into the dead, but with the return of magic into the realm it has only recently been working. The proximity to the hollow hill with it's weirwood throne might be helping, but I'm not so sure it's necessary. Over in Essos there has been a return of magic as well with no mention of weirwoods.

And no mention of anyone else coming back from the dead.

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23 hours ago, Black Crow said:

There is a half-formed thought that occurs to me on this business of the flames. There's an assumption, certainly so far as the cold wights are concerned, that the blue light represents possession by an unknown entity, whether that entity is a dark lord [sorry] or the weirnet or whatever, but that doesn't seem to be the case with the red flame.

What if both blue and red co-exist within the soul and when Thistle "sees" Varamyr, it is the cold side of Thistle's own soul that sees him. The absence of a red or blue flame shining through Coldhands' black eyes might then be explained by his being resurrected, but neither side of his soul being dominant.

The blue and red have been throwing me off from the beginning. Blue seems mostly associated with ice and the Others, but then we see it in nice warm Qarth in the warlock's lips and the Undying heart. Here in the south, it's more indigo than the ice blue that we see beyond the Wall - so are these related, or no?

Red is associated with the Red Priests and fire, but also weirwoods and as a mark for greenseers. I'm trying to draw the "battle lines" between red and blue, and failing. HOWEVER, your mention of splitting the soul- which originally contained both- to arrive at these colors is certainly intriguing, as is the idea of one perhaps being stronger than the other. Presumably, such a split could not occur in just anyone, but only someone who starts out with both red and blue. And here it may come together, because when we combine red and blue, we get... purple. 

I have believed for some time that there is something to the many Targaryen stillbirths - monstrous, seemingly long dead babies - and the fact that GRRM originally proposed an ice faction called the Neverborn. In Dany's fever dream before hatching the dragons, she escapes death by flying as a dragon, but her baby is "fed to the darkness". A darkness she also refers to as the "icy cold", and that is the reason she can't look back or she is lost. She chooses fire and escapes the cold darkness; from then on, she is on team fire, the mother of dragons. Nowhere else is the fire/ice split so obvious within one (purple-eyed) person. 

It would give a new meaning to Tyrion's (show) line, every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin:devil:

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2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I won't say Ned is the the connective component because the same imagery appears with the Kindly man.I have said the underlining connection seems to be the Old gods who I believe are perpetrating aspects of the Red lot and the faceless men.....It is all the Old gods imo who have essentially hacked these religions with their magic.

I have always liked this theory, and still do! :cheers:

I encourage everyone to read "And seven times never kill man" by GRRM, for an interesting exploration of such a scenario.

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2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Does anyone know where Beric was revived?  Thoros gets credit, but hollow hill is a place of weirwoods, and Thoros was surprised Beric came back.  Perhaps Beric came back by some other power, and Thoros just happened to be there.

First time around he was dragged out of the water at the Mummers Ford with the broken lance still through him. My impression is that he was just lying on the ground a-dying, but against all expectation made it through the night. There's certainly no suggestion of a hollow hill at that time, although I certainly wouldn't rule out a "place of power" boosting whatever Thoros did, but nevertheless the mahgic wasn't doing it spontaneously. Thoros worked it.

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3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I'm not so sure, because outside of the Other/wight horde, I don't think we have precedent for eyes that burn like stars--unless my mental image is greatly off base, I always took Mel's red eyes to be more mundane (relatively speaking) than the intensity of the wights' and the Others' burning eyes.

I'm also legitimately surprised that the notion that the wights have lost their free will is even a point of contention--that is the way they are presented from the moment Old Nan tells us of the Others raising the dead as an "army of the slain," and nothing in the subsequent text suggests otherwise.

If they were all Catelyn-esque wraiths carrying out the unfinished business and grudges of their life, their behavior and movements would be far more arbitrary and disorganized, and if they were just zombies seeking warm blooded life, they would have thrown themselves futilely against Mance's army.

Whether it be individual white walkers in the vicinity, a Night's Queen, a greenseer, the "collective" within the trees, something is directing their behavior.
 

I don't doubt that they are being led or "directed", what I'm questioning is the assumed possession. The blue light exclusively belongs to those who have been raised, whether as wights or walkers, certainly, but its a mark of that transformation, not an external thing.

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1 hour ago, MaesterSam said:

I have always liked this theory, and still do! :cheers:

I encourage everyone to read "And seven times never kill man" by GRRM, for an interesting exploration of such a scenario.

Word!I second that request.

37 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

First time around he was dragged out of the water at the Mummers Ford with the broken lance still through him. My impression is that he was just lying on the ground a-dying, but against all expectation made it through the night. There's certainly no suggestion of a hollow hill at that time, although I certainly wouldn't rule out a "place of power" boosting whatever Thoros did, but nevertheless the mahgic wasn't doing it spontaneously. Thoros worked it.

Or Thoros provided cover for what was.Mummer's ford is in the Riverland's no?

I have to disagree, intent is a lot in these things.All that ritual was,was a funerary rite.All he did was what Red priests have done thousands of time before;including Thoros.So if he done it before,other priest did it before and nothing like that happened.It ain't them and it ain't what they've been doing.

Edited by wolfmaid7

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7 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I have to disagree, intent is a lot in these things.All that ritual was,was a funerary rite.All he did was what Red priests have done thousands of time before;including Thoros. So if he done it before,other priest did it before and nothing like that happened.It ain't them and it ain't what they've been doing.

Ah don't get me wrong, Thoros wasn't expecting anything to happen. He thought he was just giving Beric the last rites, but because the red comet had scattered its magic pixie dust the transubstantiation actually happened; what I'm saying though is that the ritual was necessary. Beric didn't get better spontaneously 

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