Black Crow

Heresy 201 and onward we go...

406 posts in this topic

17 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Ah don't get me wrong, Thoros wasn't expecting anything to happen. He thought he was just giving Beric the last rites, but because the red comet had scattered its magic pixie dust the transubstantiation actually happened; what I'm saying though is that the ritual was necessary. Beric didn't get better spontaneously 

Considering that Beric's resurrection happened right after an ambush from the Mountain's men, can't we assume that Beric wasn't the only one who received a last rite from Thoros?  How come no one else came back to life?  Did no one else get the magic comet pixie dust?

And how come Thoros can keep bringing him back long after the comet has disappeared?

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5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't doubt that they are being led or "directed", what I'm questioning is the assumed possession. The blue light exclusively belongs to those who have been raised, whether as wights or walkers, certainly, but its a mark of that transformation, not an external thing.

I might agree, were it not for the confounding variable of Coldhands.

I'm still inclined to use both Varamyr and (presumably) Bloodraven as comparison points, assuming I'm not making an incorrect leap in interpreting Bloodraven as able to 'watch' through ravens, crows, weirwoods, etc.

How do we imagine that Varamyr 'commands' his snow bear when he's in combat? Do we imagine that he is jumped in the bear, and personally micromanaging it, while also keeping his body safe, directing One Eye, directing the shadow cat, and spying with Orell's eagle, that his mind is in several places at once?

There's a heavy element of suspending disbelief and head canon here, but that's not the way I've imagined it--it's my take that the snow bear is "chained" to Varamyr's will, and that all of his animals collectively sense his intent ("attack the Night's Watch!") and behave accordingly, while Varamyr might occasionally choose a particular animal to share minds with (eg, the eagle if he needs information); this is essentially how I imagine the wight horde is managed.

For the sake of clarity, it is only the wights that I perceive as lacking individuality--not the white walkers.

Edited by Matthew.

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38 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Ah don't get me wrong, Thoros wasn't expecting anything to happen. He thought he was just giving Beric the last rites, but because the red comet had scattered its magic pixie dust the transubstantiation actually happened; what I'm saying though is that the ritual was necessary. Beric didn't get better spontaneously 

I don't think so BC.To reiterate what FreyFamily reunion said.Thoros would have been giving last rites to a bunch of men after that battle.Yet,Beric was the only one who rose.Pixie dust being selective? I don't think so.

That reeks of intelligent design.

18 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Considering that Beric's resurrection happened right after an ambush from the Mountain's men, can't we assume that Beric wasn't the only one who received a last rite from Thoros?  How come no one else came back to life?  Did no one else get the magic comet pixie dust?

And how come Thoros can keep bringing him back long after the comet has disappeared?

This!

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Posted (edited)

 

2 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

I have believed for some time that there is something to the many Targaryen stillbirths - monstrous, seemingly long dead babies - and the fact that GRRM originally proposed an ice faction called the Neverborn. In Dany's fever dream before hatching the dragons, she escapes death by flying as a dragon, but her baby is "fed to the darkness". A darkness she also refers to as the "icy cold", and that is the reason she can't look back or she is lost. She chooses fire and escapes the cold darkness; from then on, she is on team fire, the mother of dragons. Nowhere else is the fire/ice split so obvious within one (purple-eyed) person. 

It would give a new meaning to Tyrion's (show) line, every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin:devil:

There is also this business with MMD:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"That may be as it may be," answered Mirri Maz Duur, "yet the creature that came forth from your womb was as I said. Death was in that tent, Khaleesi."

"Only shadows," Ser Jorah husked, but Dany could hear the doubt in his voice. "I saw, maegi. I saw you, alone, dancing with the shadows."

"The grave casts long shadows, Iron Lord," Mirri said. "Long and dark, and in the end no light can hold them back."

Ser Jorah had killed her son, Dany knew. He had done what he did for love and loyalty, yet he had carried her into a place no living man should go and fed her baby to the darkness. He knew it too; the grey face, the hollow eyes, the limp. "The shadows have touched you too, Ser Jorah," she told him. The knight made no reply. Dany turned to the godswife. "You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse."

 

More to the point, Dany sees the shadows of the Great Wolf and another that looks like a man wreathed in flame.  Graves casting long shadows could refer to the Crypts of Winterfell and House Stark.  Indeed the Great Wolf would have to cast a long shadow to touch Jorah all the way over to the Dothraki Sea.  Likewise Dany seems to be have been touched by the shadow of the man wreathed in flame since she wakes the dragon by invoking MMD's ritual. 

....A place where no living man should go reminds me of the kings of winter with their swords across their knees... and the house of Undying.

 

Edited by LynnS

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6 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

And no mention of anyone else coming back from the dead.

True, but I was just pointing out that magic had returned to the realm, and different reports of magical happenings were reported to Dany. In order for someone to rise from the dead in Essos, we'd have to have other fire priests like Thoros going around and performing this death ritual. We have no evidence that anyone did or didn't do this, so the lack of a mention doesn't mean that it did or didn't happen.

 

6 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

 

The blue and red have been throwing me off from the beginning. Blue seems mostly associated with ice and the Others, but then we see it in nice warm Qarth in the warlock's lips and the Undying heart. Here in the south, it's more indigo than the ice blue that we see beyond the Wall - so are these related, or no?

Red is associated with the Red Priests and fire, but also weirwoods and as a mark for greenseers. I'm trying to draw the "battle lines" between red and blue, and failing. HOWEVER, your mention of splitting the soul- which originally contained both- to arrive at these colors is certainly intriguing, as is the idea of one perhaps being stronger than the other. Presumably, such a split could not occur in just anyone, but only someone who starts out with both red and blue. And here it may come together, because when we combine red and blue, we get... purple. 

I have believed for some time that there is something to the many Targaryen stillbirths - monstrous, seemingly long dead babies - and the fact that GRRM originally proposed an ice faction called the Neverborn. In Dany's fever dream before hatching the dragons, she escapes death by flying as a dragon, but her baby is "fed to the darkness". A darkness she also refers to as the "icy cold", and that is the reason she can't look back or she is lost. She chooses fire and escapes the cold darkness; from then on, she is on team fire, the mother of dragons. Nowhere else is the fire/ice split so obvious within one (purple-eyed) person. 

It would give a new meaning to Tyrion's (show) line, every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin:devil:

I took the blue lips of the Undying as coming from the inversion to the weirwood trees which have red leaves and red sap. Whatever tree is the opposite of weirwood trees (Ironwood perhaps?) would logically have the opposite color. Red sap, red leaves for ice magic. Blue "fruit" to make whatever the Undying are drinking that make their lips blue for fire magic.

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Considering that Beric's resurrection happened right after an ambush from the Mountain's men, can't we assume that Beric wasn't the only one who received a last rite from Thoros?  How come no one else came back to life?  Did no one else get the magic comet pixie dust?

And how come Thoros can keep bringing him back long after the comet has disappeared?

The comet is the herald that a new cycle of the wheel has begun...at least if you're a theorizer/believer of the wheel of time. :D

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8 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I don't think so BC.To reiterate what FreyFamily reunion said.Thoros would have been giving last rites to a bunch of men after that battle.

No the passage is quite clear that Thoros gave it to Beric alone, precisely because he was his friend.

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

The comet is the herald that a new cycle of the wheel has begun...at least if you're a theorizer/believer of the wheel of time. :D

I don't know about wheels but its certainly the herald of magic [or at least magic powerful enough to be noticed] returning to the world, of which Thoros' powers of resurrection are but one manifestation.

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8 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

....A place where no living man should go reminds me of the kings of winter with their swords across their knees... and the house of Undying.

 

Well as to the Kings of Winter, it  may have been presented to us as a tradition, but we're pretty explicitly told that they are imprisoned there. It may be an empty tradition for the the more recent Stark lords of Winterfell and even the Kings in the North, but the tradition came from somewhere and there may have been good reason for binding the Kings of Winter with cold iron.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Well as to the Kings of Winter, it  may have been presented to us as a tradition, but we're pretty explicitly told that they are imprisoned there. It may be an empty tradition for the the more recent Stark lords of Winterfell and even the Kings in the North, but the tradition came from somewhere and there may have been good reason for binding the Kings of Winter with cold iron.

Yes, that's a tradition that goes a long way back given that Mance is opening graves in search of the horn.  If the purpose of iron is to imprison the shadow until the bones turn to dust; why not not just burn the body to prevent it from rising?  The cold will preserve the bones for a long time.  Unless burning the body releases the shadow only to be consumed by another.    I wonder about Mel's burnt offerings and the Red Lot's plan to burn everyone in sight.  Mel drinks down the fire; does this make her a drinker of shadows?  Is this what it means to drink from the cup of ice and the cup of fire?

The curious thing about Beric is that he raises Lady Stoneheart rather than Thoros. Whatever it is that animates his soul is transferred to Catelyn and presumably Beric is gone for good.  This speaks to Thoros who says that if he raises Beric one more time; it will be the end of both of them.

The life for death equation:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Arya VII

"Yes, but what if he won't?" she insisted.

 

Lord Beric sighed. "Then I will send you to Lady Smallwood for a time, or perhaps to mine own castle of Blackhaven. But that will not be necessary, I'm certain. I do not have the power to give you back your father, no more than Thoros does, but I can at least see that you are returned safely to your mother's arms."

"Do you swear?" she asked him. Yoren had promised to take her home too, only he'd gotten killed instead.

 

"On my honor as a knight," the lightning lord said solemnly.

 

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)

@Frey family reunionGoing back to something in the last heresy concerning Bran and the Black Gate.  I don't actually see the salt tear relating to the prophecy of salt tears and smoke.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"I am the sword in the darkness," Samwell Tarly said. "I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers. I am the shield that guards the realms of men."

"Then pass," the door said. Its lips opened, wide and wider and wider still, until nothing at all remained but a great gaping mouth in a ring of wrinkles. Sam stepped aside and waved Jojen through ahead of him. Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran's turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door's upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran's head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

 

This seems more like a baptism and a communion to me.  The gate itself could be considered a Holy Door which might make some sense if the original Watch was a priesthood.  This might be the meaning of Hodor - Holy Door rather than Hold the Door.  This has more christian symbolism attached to it:

Quote

Pope Boniface VIII began the tradition of the Holy Year, known as a Jubilee, in 1300 and the Catholic Church has celebrated them every 25 years or so ever since.[1] A major part of the Holy Year for Catholics is a pilgrimage to Rome and the ritual passing over the threshold of the holy door to symbolise the passing into the presence of God. At the same time, remission of the temporal punishment for the pilgrims' sins is granted, known as an indulgence.

Symbolism

In John 10:9, Jesus is quoted as saying, "I am the gate. Whoever enters through me will be saved."[7] In Luke 11:9 is found, ""And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." Revelations 3:20 says, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, (then) I will enter his house and dine with him, and he with me." Dom Albert Hammenstede O.S.B. noted that Porter was one of the minor orders.[8]Herbert Thurston suggests that "the symbolism of this ceremony may also have been influenced by the old idea of seeking sanctuary."[4]

"A Holy Door ...is a visual symbol of internal renewal, which begins with the willing desire to make peace with God, reconcile with your neighbors, restore in yourself everything that has been damaged in the past, and reshape your heart through conversion."[11]

 

This would certainly fit with the notion that Bran is on a pilgrimage and seeking sanctuary.

Quote

One of the earliest accounts of the Holy Year dates back to a Spanish historian, traveler and pilgrim called Pedro Tafur in 1437. Tafur connects the Jubilee indulgence with the right of sanctuary for those who had escaped persecution. He also noted its existence in pagan times for all who crossed the threshold of the Puerta Tarpea previously upon the site of the Archbasilica of St. John Lateran. Accordingly, at the request of Emperor Constantine I, Pope Sylvester I published a Papal Bull proclaiming the same immunity from punishment for Christian sinners who took sanctuary there. The privilege, however, was quickly abused and at some point was even commercialised resulting in popes consequently ordering the door to be sealed with a wall, only to be unsealed during Jubilee years.[3] The wall was destroyed and the door opened once in a hundred years. This was later reduced to fifty years and now "opened at the will of the Pope."

Not coincidently, immunity from punishment is something given to the men of the Watch.  As in Rome, there is more than one holy gate or portal not excluding the back door down another sinkhole mentioned by Coldhands.  But it seems likely to me that one exists at Winterfell to be opened at will by the Holy See.   A Holy Door that Hodor has encountered.  There is another at the House of Undying?

If passing through the Black Gate cleanses the pilgrims of their sins; does this make the gate a sin-eater? 

Quote

It is this fear of what the dead in their uncontrollable power might cause which has brought forth apotropaic rites, protective rites against the dead. (...) One of these popular rites was the funeral rite of sin-eating, performed by a sin-eater, a man or woman. Through accepting the food and drink provided, he took upon himself the sins of the departed.

 

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

@Frey family reunionGoing back to something in the last heresy concerning Bran and the Black Gate.  I don't actually see the salt tear relating to the prophecy of salt tears and smoke.

This seems more like a baptism and a communion to me.  The gate itself could be considered a Holy Door which might make some sense if the original Watch was a priesthood.  This might be the meaning of Hodor - Holy Door rather than Hold the Door.  This has more christian symbolism attached to it:

This would certainly fit with the notion that Bran is on a pilgrimage and seeking sanctuary.

Not coincidently, immunity from punishment is something given to the men of the Watch.  As in Rome, there is more than one holy gate or portal not excluding the back door down another sinkhole mentioned by Coldhands.  But it seems likely to me that one exists at Winterfell to be opened at will by the Holy See.   A Holy Door that Hodor has encountered.  There is another at the House of Undying?

If passing through the Black Gate cleanses the pilgrims of their sins; does this make the gate a sin-eater? 

 

I agree that the salt tear was a baptism for Bran.  The fact that the well is contained in an octagonal building certainly adds additional evidence for that.  If you attend any Catholic churches, you will often see that the baptismal pool (or font) is eight sided.  When I was in Florence recently, I went to the Florence Baptistery which is also an eight sided building (and when it was first built it was also a domed structure, exactly like the Night's Fort's "kitchen").  The thought being that the eight sides represents the eighth day, the day Christ rose.

Interestingly enough the tour guide I was with gave an additional explanation, that the eight sided baptismal building was a carry over from when the building was a pagan shrine to a god or goddess of a spring.  I didn't get a chance to ask him too much about that, but I'll try and research it a bit.

But I don't think that this also invalidates it as a possible symbol or link back to the Azor prophecy.  The prophecy was

Quote

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

"Born again" is certainly linked to baptism.  We also have the Ironborn who are baptized in salt water.  So Bran is "born again" when he emerges from the Winterfell tombs as Winterfell lies smoking.  And then born again when he is baptized by the Black Gate's salty tear.

Interestingly enough, we have Theon an Ironborn who is baptized or born again in salt, when Aerion baptizes him with salt water, and Stannis, who has also been likened to iron, being born again during Melisandre's pyre for the statues of the Seven, which may constitute a baptism from smoke.

And of course Iron is the main ingredient for making steel.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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18 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree that the salt tear was a baptism for Bran.  The fact that the well is contained in an octagonal building certainly adds additional evidence for that.  If you attend any Catholic churches, you will often see that the baptismal pool (or font) is eight sided.  When I was in Florence recently, I went to the Florence Baptistery which is also an eight sided building (and when it was first built it was also a domed structure, exactly like the Night's Fort's "kitchen").  The thought being that the eight sides represents the eighth day, the day Christ rose.

Interestingly enough the tour guide I was with gave an additional explanation, that the eight sided baptismal building was a carry over from when the building was a pagan shrine to a god or goddess of a spring.  I didn't get a chance to ask him too much about that, but I'll try and research it a bit.

But I don't think that this also invalidates it as a possible symbol or link back to the Azor prophecy.  The prophecy was

"Born again" is certainly linked to baptism.  We also have the Ironborn who are baptized in salt water.  So Bran is "born again" when he emerges from the Winterfell tombs as Winterfell lies smoking.  And then born again when he is baptized by the Black Gate's salty tear.

Interestingly enough, we have Theon an Ironborn who is baptized or born again in salt, when Aerion baptizes him with salt water, and Stannis who has also been liked to iron being born again during Melisandre's pyre for the statues of the Seven, which may constitute a baptism from smoke.

And of course Iron is the main ingredient form making steel.

Oh a trip to the heavens!  That's very interesting about the eight-sided building.  Bran does have the 'christ-figure' imagery about him.  Christ was the archetypal sin-eater figure.  Bran is later wed to the tree or god-head, the cross he must bare.  In his baptism, he is cleansed of original sin.  But he doesn't strike as dead or reborn or resurrected in the sense that Dany and Jon are filling that role. Bran is certainly transformed.

I think the Azor Ahai story is a composite character with several instruments or swords in the making, rather than one, each with their own purpose.  Although I have to stick with Dany as the one who most closely fits the salt tears, smoke and bleeding star conditions during and after MMD's ritual. But she is only one of three. 

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20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Oh a trip to the heavens!  That's very interesting about the eight-sided building.  Bran does have the 'christ-figure' imagery about him.  Christ was the archetypal sin-eater figure.  Bran is later wed to the tree or god-head, the cross he must bare.  In his baptism, he is cleansed of original sin.  But he doesn't strike as dead or reborn or resurrected in the sense that Dany and Jon are filling that role. Bran is certainly transformed.

I think the Azor Ahai story is a composite character with several instruments or swords in the making, rather than one, each with their own purpose.  Although I have to stick with Dany as the one who most closely fits the salt tears, smoke and bleeding star conditions during and after MMD's ritual. But she is only one of three. 

Something which occurred to me while while reading this is the absence of sacrifice in the prophecies. If we just stick for a moment with Azor Ahai without troubling ourselves over corporeal identities; this sort of saviour prophecy, in our world at least, tends not to be a matter of the saviour/hero arising to smite the heathen and then living happily ever afterward, but rather sacrificing themselves to bring about the desired result.

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10 hours ago, Black Crow said:

No the passage is quite clear that Thoros gave it to Beric alone, precisely because he was his friend.

It is possible he could have given it only to Beric but that is neither here nor there.

However,what's even more is Thoros affirmation that it wasn't him that raised Beric that is was R'hollor that did it not him.

I have no magic, child. Only prayers. That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god's own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord's servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open. It was not me who raised him, my lady. It was the Lord. R'hllor is not done with him yet. Life is warmth, and warmth is fire, and fire is God's and God's alone."

Something even more interesting is this statement by Thoros.

"The Lord of Light has woken in my heart. Many powers long asleep are waking, and there are forces moving in the land. I have seen them in my flames."

So,Thoros again may well have tapped into the powers that were asleep and now awake.But I agree with him when he says...It is not him but R'hollor(I would say again, nothing but the old powers of the land casting on the guise of the Red lot's god.The Ogs gave "life" to R'hollor.They made him manifest.

So it wasn't Thoros, the old powers hijacked a R'holloist funerary ritual and brought Beric back.

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1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

It is possible he could have given it only to Beric but that is neither here nor there.

However,what's even more is Thoros affirmation that it wasn't him that raised Beric that is was R'hollor that did it not him.

I have no magic, child. Only prayers. That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god's own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord's servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open. It was not me who raised him, my lady. It was the Lord. R'hllor is not done with him yet. Life is warmth, and warmth is fire, and fire is God's and God's alone."

Something even more interesting is this statement by Thoros.

"The Lord of Light has woken in my heart. Many powers long asleep are waking, and there are forces moving in the land. I have seen them in my flames."

So,Thoros again may well have tapped into the powers that were asleep and now awake.But I agree with him when he says...It is not him but R'hollor(I would say again, nothing but the old powers of the land casting on the guise of the Red lot's god.The Ogs gave "life" to R'hollor.They made him manifest.

So it wasn't Thoros, the old powers hijacked a R'holloist funerary ritual and brought Beric back.

I'm glad you quoted that passage.  It does raise a question of whether or not Thoros tried to bring anyone back other than Beric.  Unless he is claiming false modesty, the one or two times that he had previously given the "last kiss" would imply that Beric may have been the only one he tried to bring back.  But the passage also seems to indicate that Thoros thinks that there is something special about Beric which allowed for his resurrection. 

Now does he think this because after he brought Beric back, he was unable to replicate this feat with anyone else?  Which may explain why he isn't taking credit for Beric's resurrection. 

But of course we see Cat brought back as well, but apparently using the same flame that Thoros put into Beric.  Perhaps Cat may share whatever makes Beric special (some king bloodline perhaps?).  Or perhaps the kiss is a one time gift that can be transferred but cannot be replicated.

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Something which occurred to me while while reading this is the absence of sacrifice in the prophecies. If we just stick for a moment with Azor Ahai without troubling ourselves over corporeal identities; this sort of saviour prophecy, in our world at least, tends not to be a matter of the saviour/hero arising to smite the heathen and then living happily ever afterward, but rather sacrificing themselves to bring about the desired result.

I assume the sacrifice is the spouse, Nissa Nissa.  As we discussed earlier, Nyssa means "beginning" in Greek, and "end" in Latin.  So if Nissa is inspired by Nyssa, the spouse is the beginning and the end.

Now compare that to Revelations 1:8
 

Quote

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

So perhaps the savior/sacrifice, our "Corn King" is not Azor but the spouse Nissa Nissa. 

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

That's very interesting about the eight-sided building. 

The 'octagon' symbolism is probably related to the pagan sun wheel, by the way residual symbols of which are found in various places in Catholic iconography, e.g. the design of St Peter's Square at the Vatican.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Bran does have the 'christ-figure' imagery about him.  Christ was the archetypal sin-eater figure.  Bran is later wed to the tree or god-head, the cross he must bare.  In his baptism, he is cleansed of original sin.  But he doesn't strike as dead or reborn or resurrected in the sense that Dany and Jon are filling that role. Bran is certainly transformed.

On the contrary, there's a lot of death imagery associated with Bran.  I mean, he's literally and figuratively gone underground!

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Samwell IV

The living have no place at the feasts of the dead. It tore the heart from Sam to hold his silence then. Bran's not dead, Jon, he wanted to stay. He's with friends, and they're going north on a giant elk to find a three-eyed crow in the depths of the haunted forest. It sounded so mad that there were times Sam Tarly thought he must have dreamt it all, conjured it whole from fever and fear and hunger . . . but he would have blurted it out anyway, if he had not given his word.

Three times he had sworn to keep the secret; once to Bran himself, once to that strange boy Jojen Reed, and last of all to Coldhands. "The world believes the boy is dead," his rescuer had said as they parted. "Let his bones lie undisturbed. We want no seekers coming after us. Swear it, Samwell of the Night's Watch. Swear it for the life you owe me."

Want to take a bet one of these days Bran's going to 'rise again'..? 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I assume the sacrifice is the spouse, Nissa Nissa.  As we discussed earlier, Nyssa means "beginning" in Greek, and "end" in Latin.  So if Nissa is inspired by Nyssa, the spouse is the beginning and the end.

Now compare that to Revelations 1:8
 

So perhaps the savior/sacrifice, our "Corn King" is not Azor but the spouse Nissa Nissa. 

Nice. I am liking this find. 

And now it begins. 

No. Now it ends. 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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On 7/16/2017 at 0:18 PM, Frey family reunion said:

My guess is Jon may be both Ghost and UnJon simultaneously.  Jon's story arc may follow Winterfell's sword, Ice.  (Or the sword Gram of the Norse mythology, another sword broken in two).  

Jon's consciousness escaped into Ghost during the stabbing, but his soul (or perhaps just his shadow) remained with his body.  Jon is resurrected as a being consumed with his last thought: "stick them with the pointy end".  This is Jon's "widow wail".  While Jon's Oath keeper self resides within Ghost.

This is true. Jon thinks of "stick me with the pointy end" as a life lesson. I think he uses those words "life lesson". 

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58 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The 'octagon' symbolism is probably related to the pagan sun wheel, by the way residual symbols of which are found in various places in Catholic iconography, e.g. the design of St Peter's Square at the Vatican.

On the contrary, there's a lot of death imagery associated with Bran.  I mean, he's literally and figuratively gone underground!

Want to take a bet one of these days Bran's going to 'rise again'..? 

I agree that Bran has gone underground, but then again so has Meera, Jojen and Hodor.  The world must think he is dead so nobody comes looking for him.  I don't disagree with the symbolism of death and rebirth around Bran, especially the coma dream.  He doesn't quite fit the conditions for Azor Ahai reborn.  That seems to fit both Jon and Dany.  To my mind, he doesn't fit the sword shattered in water, the heart of a lion or forged in the heart of fire.  That fits more with Tyrion, Jon and Dany in that order.

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Something which occurred to me while while reading this is the absence of sacrifice in the prophecies. If we just stick for a moment with Azor Ahai without troubling ourselves over corporeal identities; this sort of saviour prophecy, in our world at least, tends not to be a matter of the saviour/hero arising to smite the heathen and then living happily ever afterward, but rather sacrificing themselves to bring about the desired result.

I agree.  Bran fits more with the Prince Who is Promised.  The One who will heal the realm if Rhaegar's interpretation stands.

Quote

"A Holy Door ...is a visual symbol of internal renewal, which begins with the willing desire to make peace with God, reconcile with your neighbors, restore in yourself everything that has been damaged in the past, and reshape your heart through conversion.

To that end, the powers of ice and fire can't be allowed to raise the dead.  Bran has to make sure that the dead can't rise again as malevolent ghouls bent on war, death and destruction.     He has to repair what has been damaged in the past.

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