Black Crow

Heresy 201 and onward we go...

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That's why we are heretics :commie:

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Hooray!  I'm finally moved into my new place.  I'm surrounded by boxes and loose ends.

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9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Hooray!  I'm finally moved into my new place.  I'm surrounded by boxes and loose ends.

You're GRRM?

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No, she can't be GRRM, there may be loose ends but she's completed the move :D  

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14 hours ago, LynnS said:

Hooray!  I'm finally moved into my new place.  I'm surrounded by boxes and loose ends.

:thumbsup:

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On 7/28/2017 at 11:34 PM, LynnS said:

Hooray!  I'm finally moved into my new place.  I'm surrounded by boxes and loose ends.

Any joy on the hinges essay - its a bit quiet round here?

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Any joy on the hinges essay - its a bit quiet round here?

Sorry, I'm still getting sorted out and my bookshelf has come apart,  I need some DIY gorilla glue.  But let me throw this out there from Dany's vision in the HoU:

Quote

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . .

So far, the most common interpretation is that this is a blue winter rose, it represents either Jon or Bran.  Others have pointed out that flowers almost always represent females in the story.  I tend to agree.  In this case, I think the blue flower represents Shireen Baratheon, a character that can be described as sweet-natured.  

Her mother is a Forent and their sigil includes a garland of blue flowers.  I'm reminded that the Tudor rose was a very fragrant, simple rose.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:House_Florent.PNG 

So if this a vision or a "morrow not yet made";  I wonder about Shireen's significance given her association with Patchface; her night terrors and dragon dreams.  The chink in the wall of ice could very well be the Black Gate and Stannis has plans to house Shireen, Selyse and Melisandre at the Night Fort.  That seems like a nightmare in the making. 

To add to the mystery; Dany only sees a blue flower in her vision.  It's Jorah who calls it a blue rose and he wasn't party to her vision. 
 

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

"Perhaps," she said reluctantly. "Yet the things I saw . . ."

"A dead man in the prow of a ship, a blue rose, a banquet of blood . . . what does any of it mean, Khaleesi? A mummer's dragon, you said. What is a mummer's dragon, pray?"

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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On 7/28/2017 at 6:34 PM, LynnS said:

Hooray!  I'm finally moved into my new place.  I'm surrounded by boxes and loose ends.

Yay! Congratulations!!! Hopefully it all comes together soon for you and with as little additional stress as possible. 

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6 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sorry, I'm still getting sorted out and my bookshelf has come apart,  I need some DIY gorilla glue.  But let me throw this out there from Dany's vision in the HoU:

So far, the most common interpretation is that this is a blue winter rose, it represents either Jon or Bran.  Others have pointed out that flowers almost always represent females in the story.  I tend to agree.  In this case, I think the blue flower represents Shireen Baratheon, a character that can be described as sweet-natured.  

Her mother is a Forent and their sigil includes a garland of blue flowers.  I'm reminded that the Tudor rose was a very fragrant, simple rose.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:House_Florent.PNG 

So if this a vision or a "morrow not yet made";  I wonder about Shireen's significance given her association with Patchface; her night terrors and dragon dreams.  The chink in the wall of ice could very well be the Black Gate and Stannis has plans to house Shireen, Selyse and Melisandre at the Night Fort.  That seems like a nightmare in the making. 

To add to the mystery; Dany only sees a blue flower in her vision.  It's Jorah who calls it a blue rose and he wasn't party to her vision. 
 

 

As to the first, duct tape is not to be disregarded.

As to the blue rose, there's ambiguity in everything GRRM writes, or rather a duality. There doesn't necessarily have to be one true answer and in this particular context its always worth remembering that a sweet smell is so often associated with corruption.

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Posted (edited)

There is other other possibility

 

Not a female but definitely a new age sensitive type who has if you like been "born again" at he wall.  He is a Florent too and indeed is next but one to being the Florent heir and indeed probably the rightful heir to Garth Greenhand (after his mother).

Indeed I think Sam is the reincarnation of Garth Greenhand, just as Bran is the reincarnation of Bran the Builder, Jon (or Dany) of Azzor Azzai and someone the last hero (my guess is Benjen)

Edited by Luddagain
typo

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7 hours ago, Luddagain said:

There is other other possibility

 

Not a female but definitely a new age sensitive type who has if you like been "born again" at he wall.  He is a Florent too and indeed is next but one to being the Florent heir and indeed probably the rightful heir to Garth Greenhand (after his mother).

Indeed I think Sam is the reincarnation of Garth Greenhand, just as Bran is the reincarnation of Bran the Builder, Jon (or Dany) of Azzor Azzai and someone the last hero (my guess is Benjen)

Interesting!  I hadn't considered Sam but given his association with a green man (Coldhands) and the fact that he carries the mysterious broken horn; Gilly and Crastor's boy;  he could very well be the blue flower growing from a chink in the wall (the Black Gate).

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On balance I'm rather of the view that the significance of the blue rose growing out of a crack in the Wall is a pointer to Jon's being Lyanna's son via Bael the Bard and that any other identification is going to be over-analysing things. The only other significance being that the presence of the roots in that crack may signify the breaking of the Wall by that son.

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As to the other matters, however I think that they are good points but am inclined to qualify them a little. There's an awful lot of this "reborn"/"come again" business both in the books and in reader speculation.

I think that there may be two ways of looking at this; either certain characters are indeed reincarnations of heroes of old in which case there is not only a wheel endlessly turning, but those characters are doomed to re-enact those same mistakes and outcomes - albeit GRRM is tolerably vague as to what those outcomes actually were.

Alternatively they are indeed, as GRRM keeps saying, no more than characters out of legend whose very existence is duubtful.

But, given the apparent parallels they may be outlining the roles which certain characters are to take on. That may not sound very different from option A, but I'd argue that far from being a matter of semantics it is very different in allowing our characters to excercise free will rather than merely repeat history.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

On balance I'm rather of the view that the significance of the blue rose growing out of a crack in the Wall is a pointer to Jon's being Lyanna's son via Bael the Bard and that any other identification is going to be over-analysing things. The only other significance being that the presence of the roots in that crack may signify the breaking of the Wall by that son.

This seems to be the commonly accepted interpretation of the meaning behind the blue rose, but I'm not sure it's really correct.  It seems to me that in the Bael the bard tale, the blue winter rose symbolizes the Stark daughter, not her child.  The child was left in payment for the daughter/blue rose that Bael plucked.

Quote

"All I ask for is a flower," Bael answered, "the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell."...

But when morning come, the singer had vanished ... and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter.  Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain."

Be that as it may, what is certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose that he'd plucked unasked...

So the child was a substitute for the pale blue winter rose that was stolen from Winterfell.  

In our tale, if the blue winter rose grows again, it shouldn't be the result of another theft, an offspring between another Bael and a Stark daughter, but it should stand for something being returned to House Stark after having previously been stolen from it.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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33 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

This seems to be the commonly accepted interpretation of the meaning behind the blue rose, but I'm not sure it's really correct.  It seems to me that in the Bael the bard tale, the blue winter rose symbolizes the Stark daughter, not her child.  The child was left in payment for the daughter/blue rose that Bael plucked.

So the child was a substitute for the pale blue winter rose that was stolen from Winterfell.  

In our tale, if the blue winter rose grows again, it shouldn't be the result of another theft, an offspring between another Bael and a Stark daughter, but it should stand for something being returned to House Stark after having previously been stolen from it.

I don't think that the two interpretations are incompatible. Lyanna was stolen and her child will be returned. The wrinkle I'm suggesting is that roots growing in cracks in walls can split them assunder; or to put it simply Lyanna's son is going to bring the Wall down.

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8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 

I don't think that the two interpretations are incompatible. Lyanna was stolen and her child will be returned. The wrinkle I'm suggesting is that roots growing in cracks in walls can split them assunder; or to put it simply Lyanna's son is going to bring the Wall down.

I guess my issue is with the assumption that Jon's father is a Bael type of character.  I agree that George has created an abduction myth inside his story, that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.  Now whether the myth of Rhaegar and Lyanna as a couple is true or not is another story.  But regardless, while Rhaegar superficially seems to fit the mold of Bael, since he is musically inclined and is blamed for kidnapping a Stark daughter, there is one important aspect of the Bael myth that Rhaegar does not fit.  

I think the primary importance of the Bael myth, is that we have an outsider invited into the home, the stranger then violates the guest right by stealing something of the host, in the case of Bael, he steals the paternal bloodline of House Stark, and substitutes it with his own.  It's basically a retelling of the Lan the Clever tale.  Lan is invited into Casterly Rock, and then uses this invitation to substitute the Lannister bloodline for the paternal bloodline of the Casterlies.  

But we don't have that with the Rhaegar Lyanna tale.  Rhaegar is never invited in to the Stark household.  And If he fathered Jon, then his bloodline doesn't substitute itself for the bloodline of House Stark because Jon remains an outside of the House Stark lineage.

My thought is, if Jon is the Winter Blue Rose of Winterfell, then his birth symbolize something else.  It may symbolize the return of something that House Stark had lost, the pure bloodlines of House Stark.

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Which calls to mind Mance Rayder another Bael type character who flew down from the Wall for a woman.  Only we are not told which side of the Wall.  

Here's a curious thing about Mance Rayder's raven winged-helm and Mormont's Raven:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon II

A few tents were still standing on the far side of the camp, and it was there they found Mance Rayder. Beneath his slashed cloak of black wool and red silk he wore black ringmail and shaggy fur breeches, and on his head was a great bronze-and-iron helm with raven wings at either temple. Jarl was with him, and Harma the Dogshead; Styr as well, and Varamyr Sixskins with his wolves and his shadowcat.

A Clash of Kings - Jon III
"You are few here, and isolated," Mormont said. "If you like, I'll detail some men to escort you south to the Wall."

The raven seemed to like the notion. "Wall," it screamed, spreading black wings like a high collar behind Mormont's head.

Their host gave a nasty smile, showing a mouthful of broken brown teeth. "And what would we do there, serve you at supper? We're free folk here. Craster serves no man."

It seems the raven has seen Mance Rayder's helm and knows something of Mance's purpose.  Craster is amused when the bird imitates the raven helm after Mormont offers to escort and protect the wildlings at the Wall.  No doubt Craster is familiar with the helm and Mance's purpose as well.  This suggest that the bird has been used for spying and retains memories of what it has seen.   So perhaps we are looking at Uncle Benjen after all.
 
Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

"I do," said Lord Commander Mormont. "The cold winds are rising, Snow. Beyond the Wall, the shadows lengthen. Cotter Pyke writes of vast herds of elk, streaming south and east toward the sea, and mammoths as well. He says one of his men discovered huge, misshapen footprints not three leagues from Eastwatch. Rangers from the Shadow Tower have found whole villages abandoned, and at night Ser Denys says they see fires in the mountains, huge blazes that burn from dusk till dawn. Quorin Halfhand took a captive in the depths of the Gorge, and the man swears that Mance Rayder is massing all his people in some new, secret stronghold he's found, to what end the gods only know. Do you think your uncle Benjen was the only ranger we've lost this past year?"

"Ben Jen," the raven squawked, bobbing its head, bits of egg dribbling from its beak. "Ben Jen. Ben Jen."

 

This is the only time the bird repeats another name besides Jon Snow, making it into two separate names.

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Which calls to mind Mance Rayder another Bael type character who flew down from the Wall for a woman.  Only we are not told which side of the Wall.  

Here's a curious thing about Mance Rayder's raven winged-helm and Mormont's Raven:

 

 

It seems the raven has seen Mance Rayder's helm and knows something of Mance's purpose.  Craster is amused when the bird imitates the raven helm after Mormont offers to escort and protect the wildlings at the Wall.  No doubt Craster is familiar with the helm and Mance's purpose as well.  This suggest that the bird has been used for spying and retains memories of what it has seen.   So perhaps we are looking at Uncle Benjen after all.
 

This is the only time the bird repeats another name besides Jon Snow, making it into two separate names.

And like Mormont, Mance also tried to convince Craster and his wives to leave their homes and join him.  It seems like the Raven is reminding Craster of this when Mormont makes his offer.

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We also have to think about the significance of those wings on the helmet. Do they denote old allegiances or are they trophies?

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Posted (edited)

On 8/6/2017 at 1:52 PM, Black Crow said:

 

I don't think that the two interpretations are incompatible. Lyanna was stolen and her child will be returned. The wrinkle I'm suggesting is that roots growing in cracks in walls can split them assunder; or to put it simply Lyanna's son is going to bring the Wall down.

I agree with FFR on this one.But will add to it.I think this wildly accepted view is a case of trying to make elements fit a theory.

Looking at it as it is instead of Jon is Lyanna son so the blue rose must be him we miss it.

In the story of Bael ,the rose is a replacement for the maiden' s virginity.

Aka "deflowering" that is what he took.

We do not know if Bael took the Stark girl anywhere.In fact that was something Ygritte's story alluded to.

When Jon said "He brought them back" her response was "they were in the crypt all this time."

He "tapped it" she felt ashamed having lost her maiden head so she bolted.

But he was not directly responsible for her going missing.

I think we are looking for a young woman who will flower on the Wall and that being significant somehow coming out of a bad time on the wall to affect it somehow.

I always thought and still believe it will be Arya.But @LynnS said something about Shirren which peaked my interest. 

Edited by wolfmaid7

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