Elmar Frey

[Aline de Gavrillac]

This is about Elmar Frey.  What are your thoughts on

 

1. Suppose Arya refused.  Were the Starks prepared to force Arya to honor their bargain or are they going to break their word? 
2. I don't believe Arya would fit in at The Twins.  Can Elmar fit in at Winterfell? 
3. Who is smarter between Elmar and Big Walder?
4. Do you think Big Walder could have made a better match for Arya? 

[HouseFossoway]

1. If Arya refused to marry him initially, Catelyn and Robb would have asked to postpone the marriage until they were older, by which time Arya probably would have run away, found a way to get out of the marriage, or reached an understanding with Elmar on how much freedom she would have.

2. The freys are actively sending there family members (at least the ones far down in the line of succession) away from the twins, to extend their influence. Elmar's about as far away as one can be (currently he's the youngest son, so he's only ahead of his sister). Elmar as a child would be similar to the walders in winterfell. As an adult, depending on how much of his childhood is spent with the starks, he'd either still be a frey loyalist or aspire to become a stark like theon

3. Not enough information about elmar

4. Big Walder's pretty mean, he's just better at hiding it than Little Walder

[Vaedys Targaryen]

6 hours ago, HouseFossoway said:

1. If Arya refused to marry him initially, Catelyn and Robb would have asked to postpone the marriage until they were older, by which time Arya probably would have run away, found a way to get out of the marriage, or reached an understanding with Elmar on how much freedom she would have.

2. The freys are actively sending there family members (at least the ones far down in the line of succession) away from the twins, to extend their influence. Elmar's about as far away as one can be (currently he's the youngest son, so he's only ahead of his sister). Elmar as a child would be similar to the walders in winterfell. As an adult, depending on how much of his childhood is spent with the starks, he'd either still be a frey loyalist or aspire to become a stark like theon

3. Not enough information about elmar

4. Big Walder's pretty mean, he's just better at hiding it than Little Walder

You pretty much just said everything that I wanted to say, but I do think that Robb and Catelyn would've forced Arya to marry Elmar regardless of her wishes.

Edit: Also, I think Elmar might've been sent to Winterfell to live with the Starks, not just for the reasons you've mentioned, but because he is the son Annara Farring, who we all know was rumoured to have had an affair with Black Walder which has cast dubious paternity over all of her children. Old Walder has seemed very keen to send all of his (supposed) sons with her as far away as he can, which may also mean that he would be willing to send Elmar away.

But one reason to NOT sending him away from the Twins, is the fact that he is going to be married to a princess. Being married to a princess and thusly have more power might jump him up a little bit in the succession to the Twins. If he is sent away, he might become a very staunch Stark loyalist, and Arya might just want her own children to have their own castle and the Twins are very strategically placed and it would be great to have more loyal kin there...

[TMIFairy]

I don't know much about Elmer but Big Walder was intelligent, if very cynical for a ten year old. I don;t think that he was a nasty piece of work like Little Walder or - at the very least - he could had turned out either "good" or "bad" when grown.

[ftheking]

Wait, Big Walder is the little psycho who murdered Little Walder, because he was before him in the line of succession, isn't he? Pretty sure Big Walder is the worst.

Cat would have definitely forced Arya or tried to. I can't see her givng in, she could always run away, become a silent sister for a time, marry someone else in secret, the possibilities are endless if you are as headstrong as Arya.

 

[Ahl of the House Cutler]

42 minutes ago, ftheking said:

Wait, Big Walder is the little psycho who murdered Little Walder, because he was before him in the line of succession, isn't he? Pretty sure Big Walder is the worst.

Cat would have definitely forced Arya or tried to. I can't see her givng in, she could always run away, become a silent sister for a time, marry someone else in secret, the possibilities are endless if you are as headstrong as Arya.

 

Big Walder didn't kill Little Walder.  IMO Ramsey killed LW and forced BW to keep his mouth shut.

[Moiraine Sedai]

1. Forcing Arya is the proper thing to do if the Freys fulfill their part of the fact.  Arya's feelings are not important enough to place ahead of an oath to a man who fulfilled his obligations.  The Starks were desperate to cross that bridge and they were going to promise anything.  Cat will force Arya but Robb will probably disrespect the Freys like he did.  
2. The ironborn are more culturally different and Theon fitted in.  Elmar would fit in.
3. BW is very sharp.  I'm going with BW.
4. I think given time, BW can handle Arya.  He's clever enough.  Arya will see this eventually and at least respect BW.  I don't think Arya's looks will appeal to BW but the boy is smart enough to ignore that and make the best of his opportunities the marriage can offer.

[Frey family reunion]

There is something creepy about Big Walder, especially this passage:

Quote

"We're cousins, not brothers," added Big Walder, the little one.  "I'm Walder son of Jammos.  My father was Lord Walder's son by his fourth wife.  He's Walder son of Merrett.  His grandmother was Lord Walder's third wife, the Crakehall.  He's ahead of me in the line of succession even though I'm older."

"Only by fifty-two days," Little Walder objected.  "And neither of us will ever hold the Twins, stupid."

"I will," Big Walder declared. 

Basically Big Walder is predicting that huge amounts of his family will die before him, including Little Walder who is standing right there when he makes that pronouncement.

[ftheking]

17 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

There is something creepy about Big Walder, especially this passage:

Basically Big Walder is predicting that huge amounts of his family will die before him, including Little Walder who is standing right there when he makes that pronouncement.

Exactly, you know your Freys!

Besides that (and there is multiple instances of both,him reciting the line of succession and claiming he will be Lord regardless, including one time when they are told about a relative's death) he is splattered with blood and has bloody gloves after finding LW's persumably frozen corpse. It's pretty on the nose, I don't even think it was meant to be a huge mystery. The creppiest, most fun (in a dark way) explanation is the obvious one. Big Walder seized the opportunity of the unsolved murders and climbed up another step. 

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

This is about Elmar Frey.  What are your thoughts on

 

1. Suppose Arya refused.  Were the Starks prepared to force Arya to honor their bargain or are they going to break their word? 
2. I don't believe Arya would fit in at The Twins.  Can Elmar fit in at Winterfell? 
3. Who is smarter between Elmar and Big Walder?
4. Do you think Big Walder could have made a better match for Arya? 

Sorry OP, you cannot mention either Big or Little Walder in a post without it descending into "who killed Little Walder." He's like the Laura Palmer of Westeros.

Could Arya have been forced to marry? Probably not forced, but Robb and Cat could definitely sit her down and explain the importance of why she should marry and how bad it would be for her family -- and all the north, really -- if she refused. Once married, however, I don't see a whole lot of happiness for poor little Elmar, why by and large appeared to be a pretty decent kid, for a Frey.

Arya would be miserable at the twins, but then again, she'd be miserable anywhere she has to dress up in fine clothes and practice her courtesies and be a proper little lady instead of slumming with the swineherds. That's a good question as to where they would end up, though. I would suspect at first Arya would live wherever Elmar is housed, which at the moment is the Twins. But eventually, I suspect they would be given a castle that befits their station, and since Arya's position in the Stark family is higher than Elmar's in the Freys they would probably be given a seat somewhere in the north. I think there are more empty castles in the north anyway, and there are fewer Starks than Freys to claim them.

Smartness is a highly subjective trait, and it by no means determines who wins or loses in the Game of Thrones. Tywin was smart, but Mace Tyrell is not. Yet Tywin is dead and Mace still lives.

Both BW and Elmar would probably be at their wits end trying to turn Arya into a proper lady wife, although BW might be a little more forceful in the effort (or maybe not; Elmar is still young). And no, I don't believe BW has chosen this moment to begin a decades-long quest of murdering his way through dozens of family members to become Lord of the Crossing -- but if he has, what better wife to have than a highly trained assassin who can change her face into the likeness of her victims?

 

 

[Nevets]

23 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

This is about Elmar Frey.  What are your thoughts on

 

1. Suppose Arya refused.  Were the Starks prepared to force Arya to honor their bargain or are they going to break their word? 
2. I don't believe Arya would fit in at The Twins.  Can Elmar fit in at Winterfell? 
3. Who is smarter between Elmar and Big Walder?
4. Do you think Big Walder could have made a better match for Arya? 

1.  At this point. it is a betrothal, so I doubt that Arya would refuse; I am not sure if she even could.  Marriage would be several years down the road.  Arya would have several years to get used to the idea.  Given that they got along reasonably well at Harrenhal, I would expect that it would work out at the end.  If not, there could be trouble, but by then I expect things would have settled down, so the Freys would likely not be able to do anything about it.  Or, possibly, even care, especially if it was obvious that it wasn't going to work out.  I think the Freys expected the betrothal to naturally lead to a marriage.

2.  It is most likely that they would have lived at Winterfell.  I think Elmar would do OK.  He seemed like a nicer kid that the two Walders were, and the Starks would likely try to make him feel welcome.

3 & 4.  We don't have enough info on Big Walder to really say, but he didn't seem very likable at Winterfell.  I think Arya would do much better with Elmar.

[chrisdaw]

Yes thy would have made Arya marry him. Highborn women/girls marry who they're told. Men most the time too. Yes Big Walder is smarter than Elmar and no he wouldn't make a better match for Arya, Big Walder is the next Roose Bolton.

[Targaryen Restoration]

Just a brief comment.  Big Walder and Arya could actually be good for each other.  Walder has the brains and Arya has the balls.  Walder might somehow find a way to become the warden of the north, if the north is lucky.  He's much more intelligent than Robb and the other Stark men.

[Seams]

Aside from the delicious irony that Elmar and Arya have no idea that they are interacting with their betrothed, I suspect Elmar Frey and Catelyn's Frey wards have similar functions in the story: to put a Frey into the action at a key turning point. They're not central to the plot but are primarily symbolic "enemies" who signal the arrival of death or who experience death when the tide turns.

We see this "Frey representative" when the two Walder wards arrive at Winterfell, teaching all the young people about the "Lord of the Crossing" game and foreshadowing the downfall of Robb Stark's brief reign.

Cleos Frey dies at the turning point when Brienne and Jaime finally let their long-simmering sexual tension and battle for control and respect blossom into single combat. They are immediately taken hostage by the Bloody Mummers, resulting in a big turning point. (And eventually a metal hand for Jaime - see the lobstered gauntlet, below.)

Ryman Frey is the Frey onstage at Riverrun when Jaime arrives to resolve the standoff and create more fitting terms for the highborn hostage, Edmure Tully. Ryman's death is somewhat like Merrett's death.

Merrett Frey is the sacrificial Frey in the epilogue of ASoS, signaling the turning point that is beginning with Catelyn's transformation to Lady Stoneheart. I think there is symbolism involving "Queen of the Whores" and the ancient King Tristifer in both Ryman and Merrett's deaths. If we analyzed it, their deaths might serve as mirror images of Robb and Catelyn Stark's deaths.

The death of Little Walder could signal a turning point for the Boltons - we hope. It looks as if their hold on Winterfell is becoming less secure as Manderly and others may begin to put their pro-Stark strategy into action.

Elmar's symbolic role is connected to the barrel of sand he asks Arya to help him roll across the lumpy courtyard at Harrenhal. The barrel contains Roose Bolton's mail, and rolling it in the barrel of sand is supposed to scour the rust from this garment. Other barrels we have seen include a barrel of snow filled with fresh crabs, delivered from East Watch to Castle Black. We don't know for sure what shellfish symbolize, but they seem to have something to do with armor because:

• Shells. duh.
• Aliser Thorne, the Master at Arms for the Night's Watch, has a hissy fit and doesn't eat any crab. Again, not sure what this means, but his function to teach the use of arms and armor seems significant and relevant to the crab symbolism.
• The glove containing the prized and sought-after key at The Citadel is described as a lobstered gauntlet. This is a way of describing the articulation built into the armored glove, but it ties into the shellfish in the barrel, imho.

Another significant barrel is the wine barrel in which Tyrion hides when he arrives at Essos. I believe that GRRM is telling us that Tyrion is "hatching" when he emerges from the wine barrel.

Similarly, I believe that Maester Aemon's body is preserved in a barrel of rum when he dies on board the voyage to Oldtown. I expect we will see a symbolic "rebirth" for Maester Aemon in the next book when his body is removed from the barrel. (In fact, I think his close cuddling of Mance Rayder's baby signals the person who will grow up to resemble Aemon.)

Anyway. Barrels and rebirth or turning points.

There is also wordplay around plum and lump. Lumps and bumps represent pregnancy, if Varamyr's prologue is taken as a model. Rolling the barrel across the lumpy courtyard is a pretty clear signal that there is going to be a rebirth involving the barrel. What is born from the joint barrel-rolling effort by Elmar and his betrothed, Arya? Roose Bolton's mail, which is not really clean but is clean enough for Elmar. A glimpse of that mail under Roose's sleeve is what tells Catelyn that there is something seriously wrong at the wedding feast at the Twins.

A close re-reading of the Harrenhal chapter featuring Elmar makes it pretty clear that Roose has already allied with Tywin Lannister and he was working on bringing around the Freys to see that the Lannisters have a stronger position than Robb Stark has. So the turning point leading to the Red Wedding is beginning to show itself at this point, and Elmar is the central Frey at this turning point.

Regarding Big Walder, I don't think he would be a match for Arya. Somehow, I think he might be matched already with Rickon Stark (not in the same way a marriage partner is matched, but in the way the author gives us pairs of parallel characters). I don't know if they will do battle with each other at a later stage, or maybe become allies if that's possible for a Frey and a Stark. The fact that the Walders and Rickon grew closer after Rickon's wolf attacked one of the Walders is a unique and interesting circumstance.

[Ronnel]

When Ramsey married the fake Arya probabbly take Elmar prisioner

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 7/15/2017 at 1:06 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

This is about Elmar Frey.  What are your thoughts on

1. Suppose Arya refused.  Were the Starks prepared to force Arya to honor their bargain or are they going to break their word? 

Of course. Robb would beat her into submission. Look at what he did to the head of house Karstark 

On 7/15/2017 at 1:06 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

 

1. I don't believe Arya would fit in at The Twins.  Can Elmar fit in at Winterfell?

It doesn't matter where she would fit in. She would live where her lord husband commanded and she would have his children 

On 7/15/2017 at 1:06 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

 

1. Who is smarter between Elmar and Big Walder?

How can one rock be smarter than another rock? 

On 7/15/2017 at 1:06 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

 

1. Do you think Big Walder could have made a better match for Arya? 

Nope 

[Kandrax]

BW isn't much better than LW. In order to become ruler of Twins he needs to eliminate babies

[Varysblackfyre321]

47 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

BW isn't much better than LW. In order to become ruler of Twins he needs to eliminate babies

Meh, slightly better. He doesn't seem to rejoice in cruelty being enacted for cruelties sake. He's still capable of acting a bully but he's not a pure Sadist as his big cousin.

[Zapho]

On 16.7.2017 at 6:04 PM, ftheking said:

Exactly, you know your Freys!

Besides that (and there is multiple instances of both,him reciting the line of succession and claiming he will be Lord regardless, including one time when they are told about a relative's death) he is splattered with blood and has bloody gloves after finding LW's persumably frozen corpse. It's pretty on the nose, I don't even think it was meant to be a huge mystery. The creppiest, most fun (in a dark way) explanation is the obvious one. Big Walder seized the opportunity of the unsolved murders and climbed up another step. 

I'm not usually making this specific argument: This is way too obvious.

If BW really had plans to murder everyone in front of him in the line of succession, he wouldn't announce it all the time that he will be Lord of the Crossing one day. His obsession with the succession is more indicative of how all the Freys are obsessed with it, imo. Or at least worried about it if they are way below. For those Freys, the prospects for their future don't really look too good. BW probably heard it from his parents quite often how important it is to find a place for himself in life. As a landed knight somewhere if he is lucky or a maester. Becoming Lord of the Crossing is probably the height of imaginable ambition to him at the age of eight years. Saying that he will become it one day isn't a sign of cunning, it's childish naivete.

I've read some of the theories out there about what an evil sociopath BW is. A lot of them are based on an, imho, odd interpretation of the conversation he has with Theon in the stable after he returned with that party who looked for the missing Freys. Especially that he said he would have done the same (killing them) if he were Lord Manderly. Which is no more than a realistic assessment of the situation. It just shows that he is aware of the fact that his family created a lot of enemies at the Red Wedding and that they should expect people to get revenge on them.

As for the blood: LW's corpse was at least partially buried in snow which was probably soaked with frozen blood. Snow melts when it comes in contact with body warmth. The blood stains are easily explained by BW digging up LW with his bare hands, finding the body and dragging it out of the snow. 

If the blood stains were as suspicious as some people believe, someone would have pointed it out and asked BW how he got them. And if BW was such a devious little Macchiavelli he should have thought to change his clothes before he told people about LW. 

[Kandrax]

1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Meh, slightly better. He doesn't seem to rejoice in cruelty being enacted for cruelties sake. He's still capable of acting a bully but he's not a pure Sadist as his big cousin.

Raymund's newborn twins are ahead him in line of succession so he need to kill them.