Why Imry Florent isnt a terrible admiral

[Lord Vance II]

On 7/17/2017 at 10:27 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Simply landing near the iron gate would have mitigated literally all of these problems if they were dead set on attacking KL

This. Or at least have a second force land there either as a demonstration or a more elite infiltration force. It seems like Tyrion went all-in on the southern and western approaches, which was a reasonable assumption to make. During the battle someone reports civilian mobs are clamoring to get out through the Iron Gate, no other mention really. A few hundred good men and a tough commander could probably get in, and news of Stannis's men inside the city to the rear would have crippled morale. 

On the Imry front, I agree, gets a bad rap. 

On 7/17/2017 at 10:44 PM, Trigger Warning said:

Basically the Blackwater's dumb, it's fun to read, it's not fun to analyse. 

But yeah, this too. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Im sure Stannis thought of it but it makes sense to attack the closest point just by the sound of it. 

It does until you see what the Lannisters did to the quays:

“The charred spars of sunken hulks sat in the shallows, forbidding access to the long stone quays. We shall have no landing there.”

I totally forgot about that. So really they are no better going to the mudgate vs the iron gate, regardless of the chain. 

[Stormking902]

The best man for the job should have been Admiral which in this case is by far Stannis himself, giving Imry command was to keep the Florents happy and only to keep them happy and it cost Stannis big time. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

23 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

The best man for the job should have been Admiral which in this case is by far Stannis himself, giving Imry command was to keep the Florents happy and only to keep them happy and it cost Stannis big time. 

Imry Florent was no more qualified to lead it than anyone and the Florents already counted themselves as his Hand(s) and a significant part of his leading advisors. There's nepotism and then just bad decisions

[That guy]

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Other than the fact he knows there is a possible boom that goes across the river AND he warns his captains to furl their sails because of the siege weapons? Sure let's go with that. Your definition of "wildly incompetent" is pretty far removed from reality, but worse came to worse they could rendezvous with Stannis and ask him since his men were within easy bowshot of the walls.

He knows that the chain is being constructed, at at the time he does not know whether or not it was completed. Yes he does warn them to furl their sails so the anti siege weapons on the walls couldn't destroy their sails. I meant that they would be wildly incompetent if they went close enough to actually see the chain under water which would have exposed them to fire from the walls. Since the river is at least 20 war galleys wide i don't think that they are within easy bow shot. Stannis's force is also located inland on the river shore directly across from the River Gate. So these scouts would have had to sail pas then chain and expose themselves to enemy fire from the walls to link up with Stannis. 

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Those 50+ ships would have the advantage for an hour or more. Do you realize how long it would take to land over a thousand men? Then reorganizing under fire from the walls and siege weapons? Look at the defensive details again man. Communication under those circumstances is basically impossible and you're asking ships to drop off men and then sail against the other half of the fleet to come back out to the bay and fight piecemeal.

Of the 57 ships the Lannisters had, only 45 were actually war galleys and the rest were just ships taken from traders. the 40 war galleys in the front lines had experienced crews and were tearing apart the Lannister fleet in the early stages of the battle.These 40 ships could easily held their own for the hour or so it would taken for more ships to come to their aid. The three lines that were dropping off troops already had the orders to join the fight against the enemy fleet after they were done unloading soldiers so no further communication would have been necessary. It is also my understanding that the fighting happened in the river as Davos mentions passing the chain before he engages the enemy fleet. 

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The chains stick out of the tower. If it is completed, it will stick out of both towers:

“He could see three links of a huge chain snaking out from a hole no bigger than a man’s head and disappearing under the water. The towers had a single door, set a good twenty feet off the ground. Bowmen on the roof of the northern tower were firing down at Prayer and Devotion.”

Split up the scout ships to go north and and south of the river mouth. OR just play it relatively safe and drop off the men near the iron gate and then ferry Stannis' men over. Nothing is stopping them from ferrying the men over. And the men on the troop ships were spearmen, men-at-arms, and archers. They had plenty of heavy infantry to storm the walls (or merely just even split the forces inside the walls.

 Even if Imry was aware that the chain was functional he could just think that the chain could simply have been a futile attempt to split Stannis's fleet. AS far as Imry knows wildfire production and potency is still in a declined state, so he no reason to think that they have something in which to spring a trap with.  Kings landing has a garrison of roughly 7000 men, Imry's fleet is carrying a small unarmored force comprised of only archers and spear men that would be outnumbered and out equipped by the force defending the Iron Gate, which as I recall is significantly stronger then the River Gate.  To reach Stannis's forces they would have to pass the chain to reach them. Even if they just divide their forces like you are suggesting it would result in the spear men and archers broken against the Iron Gate while the force assaulting the River Gate now has no established beachhead that those forces would have provided on the shore of the River Gate. Due to the position of Stannis's camp no matter what any plan of assault would require going past the chain to ferry them. The land forces that the fleet had was only mentioned to be comprised of archers and spear men, no heavy infantry was mentioned to be part of that force. 

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It does until you see what the Lannisters did to the quays:

“The charred spars of sunken hulks sat in the shallows, forbidding access to the long stone quays. We shall have no landing there.”

I totally forgot about that. So really they are no better going to the mudgate vs the iron gate, regardless of the chain. 

While the ships couldn't access the quays they could still land troops on the shore which would have taken longer, but would still have been quicker then ferrying troops all the way to the Iron Gate.  

[Universal Sword Donor]

17 hours ago, That guy said:

He knows that the chain is being constructed, at at the time he does not know whether or not it was completed. Yes he does warn them to furl their sails so the anti siege weapons on the walls couldn't destroy their sails. I meant that they would be wildly incompetent if they went close enough to actually see the chain under water which would have exposed them to fire from the walls. Since the river is at least 20 war galleys wide i don't think that they are within easy bow shot. Stannis's force is also located inland on the river shore directly across from the River Gate. So these scouts would have had to sail pas then chain and expose themselves to enemy fire from the walls to link up with Stannis. 

Once again. The chain is visible above the water. Davos says so when he sails by. Please quit ignoring that.

They were in damn easy bow shot. Men on the boat WERE BEING SHOT WITH ARROWS. The ships fired back. Galleys aren't gonna half a mile wide. Medieval war galleys were about 10 yards wide at most. Bows and crossbows are easily going to be able to fire 200+ yards. The overlapping arc of fire would definitely cover any ship that came into range.

No they wouldn't have to sail past. They could merely anchor a few miles away, send some men in by dingy (gendry style!), and then have them find Stannis' camp. People on ships are capable of walking through a forest. Stannis controls the entire south bank of Blackwater bay. It's essentially his war camp. 

17 hours ago, That guy said:

Of the 57 ships the Lannisters had, only 45 were actually war galleys and the rest were just ships taken from traders. the 40 war galleys in the front lines had experienced crews and were tearing apart the Lannister fleet in the early stages of the battle.These 40 ships could easily held their own for the hour or so it would taken for more ships to come to their aid. The three lines that were dropping off troops already had the orders to join the fight against the enemy fleet after they were done unloading soldiers so no further communication would have been necessary. It is also my understanding that the fighting happened in the river as Davos mentions passing the chain before he engages the enemy fleet. 

None of the Lannister ships need be engaged (nor should they have been with the chain there), but once again they could have dropped the guys off at the Iron Gate and then ferried men over (or split up). Attacking from multiple gates would really stretch their defenses. There's not much to understand. Davos literally says they are drawing them into the river. And shockingly Davos sees the chain from pretty far away, or at least well before he passes by the winch tower.

17 hours ago, That guy said:

 Even if Imry was aware that the chain was functional he could just think that the chain could simply have been a futile attempt to split Stannis's fleet. AS far as Imry knows wildfire production and potency is still in a declined state, so he no reason to think that they have something in which to spring a trap with.  Kings landing has a garrison of roughly 7000 men, Imry's fleet is carrying a small unarmored force comprised of only archers and spear men that would be outnumbered and out equipped by the force defending the Iron Gate, which as I recall is significantly stronger then the River Gate.  To reach Stannis's forces they would have to pass the chain to reach them. Even if they just divide their forces like you are suggesting it would result in the spear men and archers broken against the Iron Gate while the force assaulting the River Gate now has no established beachhead that those forces would have provided on the shore of the River Gate. Due to the position of Stannis's camp no matter what any plan of assault would require going past the chain to ferry them. The land forces that the fleet had was only mentioned to be comprised of archers and spear men, no heavy infantry was mentioned to be part of that force. 

While the ships couldn't access the quays they could still land troops on the shore which would have taken longer, but would still have been quicker then ferrying troops all the way to the Iron Gate.  

You keep ignoring both text and what I write. Imry's fleet is probably outnumbered by men, but they have archers, men-at-arms, spearmen et al. Those dudes are all wearing armor. Read.The.Chapter.

“A most formidable ship, and very swift as well, although Ser Imry had packed her bow to stern with armored knights and men-at-arms, at some cost to her speed.”

“A jerkin of boiled leather and a pothelm at his feet were his only armor. At sea, heavy steel was as like to cost a man his life as to save it, he believed. Ser Imry and the other highborn captains did not share his view; they glittered as they paced their decks.”

“On deck, soldiers banged sword against shield, while archers quietly strung their bows and pulled the first arrow from the quivers at their belts.”

“Men-at-arms were scrambling on Queen Alysanne’s deck”

“Men-at-arms rushed to defend them with spear and axe, and in three heartbeats the scene had turned to blood-soaked chaos.”

“the ones in heavy mail and plate sank to the bottom”

There's more but I stopped about halfway through the battle.

To ferry them across the river, they have to go around the chain. To meet up with Stannis they merely have to anchor and land the men *before* the chain. Stannis controls the entire souther portion of blackwater bay. 

So not only could Imry have scouted and not been massacred in the water, he had both the numbers, the soldiers needed, and the wherewithal to make a two pronged assault on the city while still ferrying Stannis' men over. But he did neither, got suckered into an obvious trap he knew was there -- and for the last time it doesn't matter if it's dragon fire, pots of pitch, ballistae bolts, boulders, arrows, or anything else -- and lost his fleet.

[Trigger Warning]

Trying to get the army across the river rather than just landing South of the river opening and taking them North is just dumb regardless. 

The river has an enemy fleet, two defensive towers with a chain and a section of wall covering the entire river and landing area with artillery where as the Iron Gate has... a gate. First they should have halted in Blackwater Bay and blockaded the Lannister fleet in the river, sent someone to speak with Stannis, take stock of the situation and decide on how they're going to carry the attack out since you know, they're about to undertake a huge combined operation from land and sea, then they should have thought I know, maybe I shouldn't try and ferry an army across a river that's covered directly by the walls and the citadel, maybe I should just take a bit more time and ferry the army just a little bit North with my huge fleet so that we don't have to fight a naval battle and then ferry men back and forth whilst being slammed with arrows and trebuchets. We can also land the entire army before beginning the assault,  rather than them being dumped directly in front of the walls and having to attack or sit there under attack from the walls before we can get more reinforcements from the other side. 

I don't know if Imry is a bad admiral or not, I know he was given bad orders though. Then again he is a bad admiral for not going "listen, this is dumb as fuck we're going to the Iron Gate." You can make the excuse that they needed to be quick but if that's the case WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING A CITY, that could take days, weeks, months, it's a walled city with a citadel and several thousand defenders.

I hate Blackwater because it just comes across as Stannis being stupid for the sake of the plot. 

[Coolbeard the Exile]

What if Tyrion closed the rush before stannis fleet went in that would be smart of him.

[That guy]

6 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Once again. The chain is visible above the water. Davos says so when he sails by. Please quit ignoring that.

They were in damn easy bow shot. Men on the boat WERE BEING SHOT WITH ARROWS. The ships fired back. Galleys aren't gonna half a mile wide. Medieval war galleys were about 10 yards wide at most. Bows and crossbows are easily going to be able to fire 200+ yards. The overlapping arc of fire would definitely cover any ship that came into range.

No they wouldn't have to sail past. They could merely anchor a few miles away, send some men in by dingy (gendry style!), and then have them find Stannis' camp. People on ships are capable of walking through a forest. Stannis controls the entire south bank of Blackwater bay. It's essentially his war camp. 

i misinterpreted what you said I thought you were referring to Stannis's land force being within bow shot, but yes you are correct about the ships. It is also my understanding that Imry was in a pretty big rush due to the various delays that cost the fleet several days like the storm that scattered his fleet. Not a great excuse but still understandable.  

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None of the Lannister ships need be engaged (nor should they have been with the chain there), but once again they could have dropped the guys off at the Iron Gate and then ferried men over (or split up). Attacking from multiple gates would really stretch their defenses. There's not much to understand. Davos literally says they are drawing them into the river. And shockingly Davos sees the chain from pretty far away, or at least well before he passes by the winch tower.

Fair enough while it would be possible to assault the Iron gate, it would be much more difficult due to the Iron gate being stronger, and the far longer amount of time it would take to ferry soldiers across the bay. While it possible that attacking the Iron Gate would have worked better, what we do know is that even with the chain, and wildfire Imry's plan was still going to work, and if only the chain was a factor then his plan would have worked even better,with him most likely just choosing to assault the Iron Gate like you said if the river was closed off. 

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Men-at-arms were scrambling on Queen Alysanne’s deck”

“Men-at-arms rushed to defend them with spear and axe, and in three heartbeats the scene had turned to blood-soaked chaos.”

“the ones in heavy mail and plate sank to the bottom”

These quotes are referring to Lannister troops 

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On deck, soldiers banged sword against shield, while archers quietly strung their bows and pulled the first arrow from the quivers at their belts

While the crews might have been armed with shields and swords  I was referring to how they lacked the heavy Armour or troop to stand up to sorties, an example of this is when the men that are initially landed get shattered by a sortie,  

"The Knights fell among the archers like wolves among chicken, driving them back towards the ships and into the river before most could notch an arrow." 

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“A most formidable ship, and very swift as well, although Ser Imry had packed her bow to stern with armored knights and men-at-arms, at some cost to her speed.”

“A jerkin of boiled leather and a pothelm at his feet were his only armor. At sea, heavy steel was as like to cost a man his life as to save it, he believed. Ser Imry and the other highborn captains did not share his view; they glittered as they paced their decks.”

While the knights and highborn captains would have worn plate armor it can be assumed that the spear men and archers carried by the second line would have been armored with mail or leather which leave them vulnerable to archers and sorties from the Iron Gate.

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To ferry them across the river, they have to go around the chain. To meet up with Stannis they merely have to anchor and land the men *before* the chain. Stannis controls the entire souther portion of blackwater bay. 

So not only could Imry have scouted and not been massacred in the water, he had both the numbers, the soldiers needed, and the wherewithal to make a two pronged assault on the city while still ferrying Stannis' men over. But he did neither, got suckered into an obvious trap he knew was there -- and for the last time it doesn't matter if it's dragon fire, pots of pitch, ballistae bolts, boulders, arrows, or anything else -- and lost his fleet.

It is highly possible that the force landed by the fleet would have been routed by the time the fleet was able to ferry Stannis's force to reinforce it. The idea of picking up Stannis's troops before the assault and assaulting each gate with half of their total land force is a decent strategy as each force would have outnumbered Kings landing's entire garrison. Imry not considering this, I can admit this is not exactly strategic genius but in my opinion his original plan was at least competent, and while he made a  few mistakes I think that they are least understandable and other then the scouts not many other commanders would have done things differently (including Davos who only suggests sending scouts).

 

 

[Universal Sword Donor]

18 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Trying to get the army across the river rather than just landing South of the river opening and taking them North is just dumb regardless. 

The river has an enemy fleet, two defensive towers with a chain and a section of wall covering the entire river and landing area with artillery where as the Iron Gate has... a gate. First they should have halted in Blackwater Bay and blockaded the Lannister fleet in the river, sent someone to speak with Stannis, take stock of the situation and decide on how they're going to carry the attack out since you know, they're about to undertake a huge combined operation from land and sea, then they should have thought I know, maybe I shouldn't try and ferry an army across a river that's covered directly by the walls and the citadel, maybe I should just take a bit more time and ferry the army just a little bit North with my huge fleet so that we don't have to fight a naval battle and then ferry men back and forth whilst being slammed with arrows and trebuchets. We can also land the entire army before beginning the assault,  rather than them being dumped directly in front of the walls and having to attack or sit there under attack from the walls before we can get more reinforcements from the other side. 

I don't know if Imry is a bad admiral or not, I know he was given bad orders though. Then again he is a bad admiral for not going "listen, this is dumb as fuck we're going to the Iron Gate." You can make the excuse that they needed to be quick but if that's the case WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING A CITY, that could take days, weeks, months, it's a walled city with a citadel and several thousand defenders.

I hate Blackwater because it just comes across as Stannis being stupid for the sake of the plot. 

Quit making me agree with you whilst I try to debunk trains of thought! The plan was awful no matter who sailed

[Adam Yozza]

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Quit making me agree with you whilst I try to debunk trains of thought! The plan was awful no matter who sailed

Except the plan worked. Most of the fleet got destroyed yes but until Tywin arrived; which wouldn't have changed whether they attacked the Iron Gate or the River Gate; Stannis was still winning.

The plan wasn't perfect and attacking the Iron Gate would have been smarter. But it was quicker to attack the Mud Gate, both because it was closer and weaker, and if it hadn't been for the wildfire; which Imry had no way of knowing just how much they had; the plan would have worked almost flawlessly. No, Imry is not the greatest commander and yes he made some mistakes. Maybe Monford Velaryon would have scouted the river, maybe on the Estermonts would have ferried Stannis to the Iron Gate instead of the Mud Gate, maybe Selwyn Tarth would have commmitted more ships to fighting the Lannister fleet from the offset. But on the whole the plan was not 'awful'.

[That guy]

2 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Except the plan worked. Most of the fleet got destroyed yes but until Tywin arrived; which wouldn't have changed whether they attacked the Iron Gate or the River Gate; Stannis was still winning.

The plan wasn't perfect and attacking the Iron Gate would have been smarter. But it was quicker to attack the Mud Gate, both because it was closer and weaker, and if it hadn't been for the wildfire; which Imry had no way of knowing just how much they had; the plan would have worked almost flawlessly. No, Imry is not the greatest commander and yes he made some mistakes. Maybe Monford Velaryon would have scouted the river, maybe on the Estermonts would have ferried Stannis to the Iron Gate instead of the Mud Gate, maybe Selwyn Tarth would have commmitted more ships to fighting the Lannister fleet from the offset. But on the whole the plan was not 'awful'.

This, my exact opinion.

[Trigger Warning]

3 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Except the plan worked. Most of the fleet got destroyed yes but until Tywin arrived; which wouldn't have changed whether they attacked the Iron Gate or the River Gate; Stannis was still winning.

The plan wasn't perfect and attacking the Iron Gate would have been smarter. But it was quicker to attack the Mud Gate, both because it was closer and weaker, and if it hadn't been for the wildfire; which Imry had no way of knowing just how much they had; the plan would have worked almost flawlessly. No, Imry is not the greatest commander and yes he made some mistakes. Maybe Monford Velaryon would have scouted the river, maybe on the Estermonts would have ferried Stannis to the Iron Gate instead of the Mud Gate, maybe Selwyn Tarth would have commmitted more ships to fighting the Lannister fleet from the offset. But on the whole the plan was not 'awful'.

Well it kind of is but for plot magic. They didn't even breach any of the walls or capture any section of the walls yet for unknown reasons everyone thinks the fight's over because some sallies didn't go well and they start running away, I mean I get that a lot of them are raw recruits and the King left the battlements but the enemy fleet was aflame and men were landing in drips and drabs, they still held the walls, how could morale be that low before a single section of the wall even falls? Blackwater is just levels of what the fuck is going on over even more layers of what the fuck is going on but that's all it's meant to be really, a big dumb and fun battle to read. 

It went well because GRRM wrote it to go well which is why it's not fun analysing it, in any other circumstance the plan would just be ridiculous in comparison to landing at the Iron Gate and a man like Stannis wouldn't be choosing it. It being marginally quicker doesn't seem worth the cost of having to destroy an enemy fleet, make all of your landings back and forth under fire, land men in drips and drabs directly under the enemy walls and risk being caught by the chain. Walls shouldn't be easy to take, any plan should be made under the assumption that you might not take the walls in a week let alone a day, then again in ASOIAF castles seem to fall like paper when they need to and be impregnable when not. 

[Jedi Exile]

On 7/16/2017 at 2:26 AM, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Nice analysis you missed out the boom chain but the fleet was already committed by then and even Davos didn't know what to make of it.

The fleet was smashed but without Tywin falling on Stannis, what ships remained would have been sufficient to ferry enough troops to take the city and win the war.

 

The only mistake Ser Imry made was not taking the winch tower on the southern side. And that's on Stannis' head since he was the guy with the army on this side.

[PrinceHenryris]

Imry didn't do a bad job.  He was just following his commander's crappy plan.

[Canon Claude]

On 2017-10-09 at 3:50 AM, PrinceHenryris said:

Imry didn't do a bad job.  He was just following his commander's crappy plan.

Was it a crappy plan? Without the wildfyre and the mountain clan ambush, Stannis would have had no trouble taking the city for his own, even before Tywin arrived.

[Jedi Exile]

On 10/10/2017 at 3:04 PM, Canon Claude said:

Was it a crappy plan? Without the wildfyre and the mountain clan ambush, Stannis would have had no trouble taking the city for his own, even before Tywin arrived.

1

The Only Reason why Stannis lost the Battle of the Blackwater is simply due to deus ex machina for the Lannisters.

Stannis took a whole 3 hours (not a full day even) to smash through Tyrion's defense "plan". 

Tyrion fell, his men fleeing for their lives, the gates rammed with no way to stop them, and too few men on the other side of the wall to deny them. Even from the Red Keep, people were starting to flee. Before dawn, the city and the castle would have fallen, and the sun would shine on Joffrey's head upon a spike, with Cersei's and Tyrion's on either side keeping him company.