Risto

Discussing Sansa XXVII: Northern ways...

191 posts in this topic

Dear ladies and gentlemen, here we are again...

Given that our favorite ginger Stark has survived Season 6, the time has come to continue the discussion with the new material. Hope you'll enjoy the season and welcome to this little corner dedicated to one of the most controversial and divisive characters.

Winter has come and so has she :D 

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I really liked Sansa in this Episode. I think she had some excellent points. Perhaps it should be said in private, but I guess that Jon doesn't have a small council. He seems to be making all the decision himself at the moment- at least that is the impression I had. Sansa is following her grandfather Rickard's advice of  "...if you have to fight, win."

 

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Please don't tell me that they had invited Ned Umber and Alys Karstark all the way from their castles and never ever once discussed about it.

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She usually behaves very childish and selfish, I was surprised be her this episode. She made Jon look like an idiot(which he was).

it seems Jon doesn't trust her no matter what she says, smart or stupid. That spells trouble.

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She's absolutely untrustworthy. Poor Jon will need to be on constant guard from her backstabbing him.

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OK... This was unexpected...

So, this is the problem writers of the show always had. When they clash two main characters, such as Sansa and Jon, one of them inevitably looks like an idiot. We have seen it with Dany and Tyrion numerous times for the last two years, we see this one now. I feel as if they are trying to balance these two, between their responsibilities and love for each other and it's not that they are doing worst job, it is just that two characters can shine in the same scene, it only needs to be written and acted properly.

As for Sansa questioning Jon in the Great Hall... Well, I think half of the people there questioned him. Glover questioned his decision about women, Tormund agreed with him, but wasn't very receptive, Lord Royce also expressed his thoughts. Generally, it feels that is the way Northern court operates. Like the round table of Camelot. They all speak, but at the end of the day, just like Sansa did, obey to Jon. I think it was good idea to have Sansa teasing and questioning him, it did make a lot of sense, I just wish Jon was a bit more eloquent in his reasoning.

As for the courtyard scene, again, Sansa expresses why it is very important for her to question him. His focus is on the Night King and rightly so, but she knows the enemies of House Stark. We have seen how Jon underestimated Ramsay. We now see him not paying too much attention to Cersei. Sansa seems far more vigilant. She doesn't negate the danger in the north, she just points out that there are dangers on the south. Much like Cersei's 4 sides of the world enemies.

Realistically, Miss Turner and Mr Harington was building hype for nothing. Sansa does feel unappreciated but I suppose that is going to be settled when

Spoiler

Jon goes South and leaves Sansa in charge.

Also, has anyone noticed how Miss Turner got better in her job? One can almost feel how much she is enjoying Sansa's new status and that this is something closer to what she wanted to do with the character she is playing.

3 hours ago, Bear Claw said:

I really liked Sansa in this Episode. I think she had some excellent points. Perhaps it should be said in private, but I guess that Jon doesn't have a small council. He seems to be making all the decision himself at the moment- at least that is the impression I had. Sansa is following her grandfather Rickard's advice of  "...if you have to fight, win."

 

I think that is more of a common sense and survival instincts :D

3 hours ago, Ice Walker said:

Please don't tell me that they had invited Ned Umber and Alys Karstark all the way from their castles and never ever once discussed about it.

Apparently they did. Boy, it must have been a bad trip for them not knowing what's going to happen.

1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

She's absolutely untrustworthy. Poor Jon will need to be on constant guard from her backstabbing him.

Meh.

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Posted (edited)

She was a complete ______ aggressive, rude, ignorant, conceited, manipulative, condescending person  with a superiority complex who thought they were the smarter and better than everybody else for no reason 

Cersei taught me a great deal.

Really? Of all the people in the world you have to learn from Cersei? Of all the things in the world that you could have learned, you learned to be a rude, manipulative smartass? Great job! What a strong and independent female you are! 

I mean who does something like that? Who questions their (elected) leader in front of a bunch of strangers? This resonates so well with Jon's agenda about standing together and not fighting amongst themselves. And when Jon calls her out on it, she compares him to Joffrey? 

Jon, you should have the lord's chamber, Jon, you are the lord of Winterfell, but you really should do exactly what I want because I'm smarter? How is she smarter? Who should have those castles? The Mormonts, the wildlings or the Vale, because that was about how many people fought for Jon. Why not give away the BOLTON castle if she really wants to reward someone? Isn't that standing empty without an heir? Wasn't giving Winterfell to the Boltons after Ned's betrayal while the stark kids were still there EXACTLY the same what Sansa proposed to do now? Yes, I can see to Cersei lessons, indeed. 

And Sansa is SO clueless about the white walker thhreat while being infinitely convinced that she is the smartest person in the world. She is the difinition of Cersei. 

Edited by RhaenysB
I must express myself in more polite ways.

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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

She was a complete bitch. 

Can we just refrain from calling women by that word, whether they are real or imaginary? There are far more polite ways to express yourself without resorting to that kind of language. Thanks :D 

As for the rest of the post, I simply saw those scenes in a different fashion.

Edited by Risto

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Sansa makes a good point when she is once again (think back to her warning about Ramsey pre-BOTB) trying to get Jon to stop, listen, and take advantage of her experience and knowledge of the enemy. As Cat pointed out in season 1, a lady's armor is her courtesy and she learned a great deal about and from these evil characters like Cersei and Ramsey while she had to endure living with them. Jon learned to fight at the Wall, but Sansa has been learning too. Cat knew that Ned's honor and lack of political maneuvering would get him in trouble and that guided her actions previously. If Jon were smart, he would take advantage of Sansa's knowledge and abilities after she proved herself to be right about Ramsey and able to bring in her own allies. If Jon keeps ignoring her, I can see Sansa making moves with LF, to try to fix some other perceived mess that comes about from Jon trying to be an honorable hero and then getting out maneuvered by LF...

I really enjoyed the obvious "girl-power" vibes this episode!

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8 minutes ago, Risto said:

Can we just refrain from calling women by that word, whether they are real or imaginary? There are far more polite ways to express yourself without resorting to that kind of language. Thanks :D 

As for the rest of the post, I simply saw those scenes in a different fashion.

Amen to that! I don't see any of the strong men (even when they do stupid stuff) being referred to like that...

Figuring out where Sansa's head is is tough with the departure between shows and book... So much of her character development is skipped (of course book Sansa will feel differently about Bastards) and then gets subbed in with storylines from other book characters... It feels like D&D are trying to be very explicit about her motivations when she points out that she recognizes that Jon didn't learn much about political maneuvering from Ned or Rob and that he'll need it... Most of her action and dialog during the season 6 finale and this season 7 premiere tried to blatantly foreshadow this as much as the freaking countless references to how the wall is about to take a tumble...

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58 minutes ago, RhaenysB said:

I mean who does something like that? Who questions their (elected) leader in front of a bunch of strangers? This resonates so well with Jon's agenda about standing together and not fighting amongst themselves. And when Jon calls her out on it, she compares him to Joffrey? 

Jon, you should have the lord's chamber, Jon, you are the lord of Winterfell, but you really should do exactly what I want because I'm smarter? How is she smarter? Who should have those castles? The Mormonts, the wildlings or the Vale, because that was about how many people fought for Jon. Why not give away the BOLTON castle if she really wants to reward someone? Isn't that standing empty without an heir? Wasn't giving Winterfell to the Boltons after Ned's betrayal while the stark kids were still there EXACTLY the same what Sansa proposed to do now? Yes, I can see to Cersei lessons, indeed. 

And Sansa is SO clueless about the white walker thhreat while being infinitely convinced that she is the smartest person in the world. She is the difinition of Cersei. 

:D:D Agree!

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Sansa having nothing to say to Jon's observation that it sounds like she admires Cersei except that she learned a lot from her was very interesting.

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I was pleasantly surprised by Sansa this episode but since last season, I've been wishing she turns against Jon, so this gave me a bit of hope. But honestly, I'm not getting my hopes high up, because Sansa will never become a player and she is just clueless about almost everything, I can't help it. The part with "you should listen to me, you bad boy!" was just plain bad...

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1 hour ago, imp-ty said:

Figuring out where Sansa's head is is tough with the departure between shows and book... 

I think the main issues with today's scenes were her disagreement with the Chosen One, even though she obviously abode to his will and respected his decisions, not to mention giving him credit. The second one gets more interesting. It is so called "empowerment" this version of Sansa has been given. The issue is that this Sansa is EMPOWERED-FEMALE-OF-GOT and as such, she has to be cruel. They are all now looking the same. Dany almost burned cities (as Cersei did with Sept of Baelor). Luckily Tyrion was there. Cruelty seems to go hand-in-hand with the empowerment in this adaptation. That is why Sansa is "admiring" Cersei. Because they are all similar now. Yes, Dany and Sansa have high moral standards than Cersei, but even that is given through their connections to Tyrion and Jon respectively.

20 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

I was pleasantly surprised by Sansa this episode but since last season, I've been wishing she turns against Jon, so this gave me a bit of hope. But honestly, I'm not getting my hopes high up, because Sansa will never become a player and she is just clueless about almost everything, I can't help it. The part with "you should listen to me, you bad boy!" was just plain bad...

Simply, I don't see it and this episode cemented that. She wants him to listen to her, to be his equal, he sees her as his little sister. That is not material for some great confrontation. Especially since...

Spoiler

they won't be anywhere close for the good part of the season, it seems. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Risto said:

 

Simply, I don't see it and this episode cemented that. She wants him to listen to her, to be his equal, he sees her as his little sister. That is not material for some great confrontation. Especially since...

  Hide contents

they won't be anywhere close for the good part of the season, it seems. 

 

Yeah. I think that this ship has already sailed. Their (countless) chance(s) to turn Sansa against Jon was (were) last season, especially if Sansa accepted LF's marriage proposal. Now it's in my opinion too late to make anything similar happen.

By the way, Sansa's desire to be listened to is just an endless source of amusement and irritation. Like last season when this awesome conversation happened:

Sansa: You should listen to my advices, Jon!

Jon: OK, what should I do in your opinion?

Sansa: How tf am I supposed to know it? I'm just a stupid girl!  :bang:

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Honestly from this episode we just saw that sansa is cold and thinks she knows how things should be done.

She didn t really offer options in how to deal with cersei for example, she was just bitching that she is dangerous and that jon is being dumb and should listen to her because she is smart. And I dont think jon oposes to listen to her, however if he is completly against her opinions what can he do? agree with her to make her happy? And what jon did gives him the loyalty of those 2 houses while trying to turn a new page in northern relations because almost every house failed in the war against the boltons.

The worst to me is that they make sansa sound childish. Like I know better so listen to me! otherwise you are stupid...

And I wouldn t be suprised if we see sansa acting like cersei while rulling winterfell (cold and unforgiving) and even beguining to scheme to not lose her power once jon comes back. There is too much tentation for it not to happen. However arya and then littfinger death will end it.

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11 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

Yeah. I think that this ship has already sailed. Their (countless) chance(s) to turn Sansa against Jon was (were) last season, especially if Sansa accepted LF's marriage proposal. Now it's in my opinion too late to make anything similar happen.

By the way, Sansa's desire to be listened to is just an endless source of amusement and irritation. Like last season when this awesome conversation happened:

Sansa: You should listen to my advices, Jon!

Jon: OK, what should I do in your opinion?

Sansa: How tf am I supposed to know it? I'm just a stupid girl!  :bang:

Yeah, it seems like Sansa thinks that she is being self-explanatory in her claims that she should be listened. And I think not just Jon, but also the audience is puzzled by her request or the validity of the same. 

11 minutes ago, divica said:

Honestly from this episode we just saw that sansa is cold and thinks she knows how things should be done.

Well, everyone has opinion on how things should be done. It is in human nature to be opinionated regarding certain things.

At the end of the day, it is not like entire room was against her. Many shared her opinion. In fact, what she suggested was the ordinary practice in these situations. 

15 minutes ago, divica said:

She didn t really offer options in how to deal with cersei for example, she was just bitching that she is dangerous and that jon is being dumb and should listen to her because she is smart. And I dont think jon oposes to listen to her, however if he is completly against her opinions what can he do? agree with her to make her happy? And what jon did gives him the loyalty of those 2 houses while trying to turn a new page in northern relations because almost every house failed in the war against the boltons.

I think there is a certain reciprocity in how they talk about the dangers. Jon doesn't know Cersei, Sansa doesn't know Night King. Jon thinks they are safe due to weather, Sansa thinks they are safe due to Wall. Well, they are both wrong and they are both underestimating the thing they don't know (Jon is doing this for the second time, after being almost kicked by Ramsay)

Also, I don't think that Sansa believes she is smarter than Jon, I just think that she wants for him to stop looking at her as silly little girl. On the other hand, she is not the most successful in building her case for that.

 

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24 minutes ago, Risto said:

Yeah, it seems like Sansa thinks that she is being self-explanatory in her claims that she should be listened. And I think not just Jon, but also the audience is puzzled by her request or the validity of the same. 

Well, everyone has opinion on how things should be done. It is in human nature to be opinionated regarding certain things.

At the end of the day, it is not like entire room was against her. Many shared her opinion. In fact, what she suggested was the ordinary practice in these situations. 

I think there is a certain reciprocity in how they talk about the dangers. Jon doesn't know Cersei, Sansa doesn't know Night King. Jon thinks they are safe due to weather, Sansa thinks they are safe due to Wall. Well, they are both wrong and they are both underestimating the thing they don't know (Jon is doing this for the second time, after being almost kicked by Ramsay)

Also, I don't think that Sansa believes she is smarter than Jon, I just think that she wants for him to stop looking at her as silly little girl. On the other hand, she is not the most successful in building her case for that.

 

Even if she wants that, it isn t what it seems. To me in the scenes it seems as if she is entitled to be listened and "obeyed". And when jon doesn t listen to her it isn t because he sees her as a little girl, but because he is being naive (in her opinion) like robb and ned were. The scene where she says for him to be smarter than them is the proof of this. It would be a good arc for her if her rulling style fails and she learns that she doesn t know everything (which is the vibe I am getting from her).

Then if they are worried about the lannisters they should send the vale army to the neck and fill the food storages of winterfell. nothing much to do... however sansa doesn t give na option to deal with cersei that doesn t influence the preparation against the ww.

However, next week when jon decides to go with daavos to see danny will be much worse than this week. That decision is completly illogical. No king would go meet another king in their lands to negotiate with some sort of protection. danny could just feast jon to her dragons and talk to the next king of the north...

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1 hour ago, divica said:

Honestly from this episode we just saw that sansa is cold and thinks she knows how things should be done.

She didn t really offer options in how to deal with cersei for example, she was just bitching that she is dangerous and that jon is being dumb and should listen to her because she is smart. And I dont think jon oposes to listen to her, however if he is completly against her opinions what can he do? agree with her to make her happy? And what jon did gives him the loyalty of those 2 houses while trying to turn a new page in northern relations because almost every house failed in the war against the boltons.

The worst to me is that they make sansa sound childish. Like I know better so listen to me! otherwise you are stupid...

And I wouldn t be suprised if we see sansa acting like cersei while rulling winterfell (cold and unforgiving) and even beguining to scheme to not lose her power once jon comes back. There is too much tentation for it not to happen. However arya and then littfinger death will end it.

Meh, I just think there is a lot to deal with at the moment and emotions are high.  Not only that she is kind of playing two identities right now.  She is playing that smart, powerful, and intelligent woman to thwart Little Finger and his manipulation and the other is unfortunately being a little sister to John and assisting him in ruling the North.  On top of all of that you have the North who for all intents and purposes is somewhat uniting back together, but not completely and are all preparing to fight an army of the dead, which no has even seen yet, while having to worry what is happening in the South.

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Sansa was right, fight me. Jon should've married Alys Karstark to someone loyal like in the books and sent that Umber kid packing. It's harsh but that's the name of the game. 

Of course, she shouldn't have argued that in front of literally everyone.

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