Discussing Sansa XXVII: Northern ways...

[Ice Walker]

1 minute ago, Hoo said:

Sansa will not betray Jon. 

Didn't say that she will betray Jon. Your statement declared that she already had. Not just, Jon. But, all the men & Lords who decided to lay down their lives for her and her youngest brother.

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However, Jon does not deserve to be the KINT by any criteria.  If she removes him that is not betrayal, he is an usurper and rules only with her approval.

From what you posted, Sansa doesn't deserve to be anything by any criteria. At least, not in the North. She can be LF's wife at the Vale/King's Landing.

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 LF  is 100% right.

Also, 

[Hoo]

LF was looking at that KITN ceremony squinteyed and thinking this is so incredibly stupid, just like mining for glass.  Sansa knew it too, and they were right.

[Ice Walker]

6 minutes ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

The thing is, all this tension between Sansa and Jon is temporary. Jon will soon find out he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, which will elevate him above King of the North. Where will Sansa be when that happens and what will her purpose be then?

I think Bran might reveal it to Jon but, not to others. If it becomes public knowledge, it will be too self-serving for Bran. Kinda like Stannis' claim to the Iron Throne by revealing the parentage of bastard(s). He would want Jon to continue as the Commander/Leader against the Night King.

I doubt the adult Howland Reed or his army will make an appearance on the show.

[Lord Godric]

40 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

No she didn't.  She double crossed her half brother/cousin by (1) complaining that no one was listening to her, (2) saying she don't know nuthin bout fighting battles anyway, (3) failing to inform John she had sent for the Vale army, we won't get into how Ramsay and his 20 good men failed to notice this giant army moving through the North, LOL.  This makes her a traitor to the North and House Stark.

And yep, she straight up murdered Ramsay.  Not an execution, no trial, no list of his crimes, nothing official about it, pure I spit on your grave revenge.

She is a traitorous beast in the show at this point and should be confined for her own good and the good of everyone around her.

Hyperbole much? It sounds like you just want to blame Sansa for everything.  How can you consider her a traitor to the North and House Stark when House Stark would be practically extinct if not for her actions in calling for the Vale army? 

As for Ramsey, Sansa didn't need to put him on trial. He raped her, she knows it. When did Ned put the Night's Watch deserters on trial? When did Robb put Karstark on trial? When did Jon put his murderers on trial? Stop trying to find things to hate Sansa for. There are legitimate reasons to criticize her character, but nothing that you said constitutes that. 

[Lord Godric]

1 hour ago, Ice Walker said:

The only mistake Jon ever did was rushing towards a hostile army to save his youngest "brother." Alliser Thorne being an idiot doesn't mean Jon had made a mistake.

Sansa compared Jon to Ned and Robb because the writers want to empower "Sansa" as someone smart. The best thing they could come up with is to attach the popular opinion from social media to her. Sansa never had the power but let's look at her track record on the show:

S1. Betrayed her own sister and consequently, lost her direwolf

S2. Refused to take the Hound's offer during the Battle of Blackwater

S3. Trusted Littlefinger.

S4. Trusted more Littlefinger and lied to Yohn Royce.

S5. Trusted even more Littlefinger, ignored Brienne and got raped by Ramsay.

S6. Trusted Littlefinger more than Jon. Sent a raven to him even though he is untrustworthy. Kept quiet when her half-brother asked for advice.

S7. Wouldn't even let Jon finish his POV before interrupting over and over.

She has some good one-liners to shut up Joff, Ramsay, and Littlefinger. That's about it.

A perfect example of conveniently forgetting Jon's disastrous attempt at bringing the Wildlings and Watch together that ended in his death. The "only mistake Jon ever made..." I mean I know Jon is a Gary Stu, but even that is pushing it. 

As for Sansa, I think you are right to criticize her in the earlier seasons, that's the whole point. Sansa's arc is supposed to go from this idealistic, young, girl to a politically smart young woman. All of your points after S1 are ridiculous. Sansa does not have the knowledge that the book/show audience does that Sandor isn't a terrible person. She had no way of knowing that this drunken brute was going to actually protect her and not rape her. Trusting Littlefinger may not have ultimately been the smart move, but the alternative was staying in King's Landing and either being Joffrey's plaything or being tried for Joffrey's murder, so I'm not sure that is a mistake.  You can't compare interrupting Jon with betraying Ned in S1. 

[Ice Walker]

11 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

A perfect example of conveniently forgetting Jon's disastrous attempt at bringing the Wildlings and Watch together that ended in his death.

Please explain why that was a bad decision of Jon and not Alliser Thorne. Would you rather have more men to fight an army of dead or let those potential men join the dead army?

11 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

Sansa does not have the knowledge that the book/show audience

You could apply the same to any character and bail them out. Including Jon for your previous statement.

My whole point was that Jon is "currently" the best leader among the Starks.

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You can't compare interrupting Jon with betraying Ned in S1. 

I didn't even include that because it wasn't in the show.

[Hoo]

Jon got himself killed.

Jon Snow knows nothing.  Sansa gave herself Winterfell by beating Ramsey.  Jon gave her the bedroom.  Not because he is mean, or because he plays the game, but because he is an idiot, a loveable idiot who survives in spite of himself.

but maybe that will change when he finds out he has a claim to Rhaegar's property.

[Thor Odinson]

The thing is, all this tension between Sansa and Jon is temporary. Jon will soon find out he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, which will elevate him above King of the North. Where will Sansa be when that happens and what will her purpose be then?

The revelation will hurt Jon, not help him. It'll cost him his right to be King in the North, for one. As for the Iron Throne, I don't know if you've noticed, but that's pretty hotly contested right now. Trying to claim the Iron Throne would put him in conflict with both Cersei AND Daenerys, who absolutely would not tolerate someone getting in front of her to her claim to the throne.

What I suspect, though, is that if Jon loses his role as King in the North that Sansa, now knowing that Jon is her cousin and not her half-brother, will propose marriage. That way Jon can continue to rule the North through her claim and it'd have the added benefit in that Jon could take her name and become Jon Stark (Which has happened on occasion with the great houses of the First Men. When a great family has nothing but female heirs, a husband takes the daughter's name so that the family name could continue. I believe this happened with the Lannisters once way back in the day). There are countless advantages to this:

1) An unmarried Sansa is a threat to her entire family, because her husband would have the greatest claim to rule the North. Anyone who marries her will want to claim the North with her, putting Jon, Bran, and even Arya in danger.

2) Sansa would finally get to choose who she marries, rather than having the choice made for her, whether it's Joffrey, Loras, Tyrion, and Ramsey, or Littlefinger now trying to force her into marrying him.

3) Jon is exactly the sort of man she's always dreamed of marrying. And in a roundabout way, she'll end up getting what she wanted when this all started, to marry a prince.

4) Both Jon and Sansa want to spend the rest of their lives in Winterfell, and recreate the family they lost. This can only happen with each other.

And before anyone says it, Jon and Sansa have never had a real sibling relationship. As soon as she was old enough to know what a bastard was, she basically ignored his existence, and he spent next to no time with her. So there's no real sibling bond between them the way there is between them and the other Stark kids. And frankly, I suspect a young Jon had a secret crush on Sansa which he felt deeply ashamed over. Who did he almost lose his virginity to? Roz, a redhead. Who did he first fall in love with? Ygritte, a redhead. He obviously has a "type", and if you're willing to consider the possibility that his childhood crush was Sansa, then it's easy to see where his tastes came from.

[xjlxking]

Jon's wont be a King in the North forever. 

 

I'm hoping that he will continue to show the same traits he has done throughout season 1-6 towards other regions. Doing this will make the majority respect him so that when it's evident that he is a part Targ, he'd be welcomed as a ruler and king. Most likely, the dragons will befriend him and a few key character will announce his lineage (Bran)

[teej6]

50 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

Hyperbole much? It sounds like you just want to blame Sansa for everything.  How can you consider her a traitor to the North and House Stark when House Stark would be practically extinct if not for her actions in calling for the Vale army? 

House Stark would be extinct? As far as I can tell, Jon SNOW, House Mormont, and the Wildlings were the ones being defeated in battle. There were no Starks in the battle except for Rickon who would probably be still alive if Sansa had deigned to tell Jon that she had written to LF to come to their aid with the Vale army. But no, the brilliant Sansa just made a lot of noise and told Jon the obvious about not attacking since they don't have enough men. When Jon asks her for a solution, she doesn't say that they might get reinforcements or offer a constructive solution, instead she just says I don't know and callously declares that her baby brother is a dead boy walking, the same baby brother she implored Jon to save a few episodes before. Yeah ShowSansa is a real heroine. 

[Lord Godric]

Just now, teej6 said:

House Stark would be extinct? As far as I can tell, Jon SNOW, House Mormont, and the Wildlings were the ones being defeated at the battle. There were no Starks in the battle except for Rickon who would probably be still alive if Sansa haddeigned to tell Jon that she had written to LF to come to their aid with the Vale army. But no, the brilliant Sansa just made a lot of noise and told Jon the obvious about not attacking since they don't have enough men. When Jon asks her for a solution, she doesn't say that they might get reinforcements or offer a constructive solution, instead she just says I don't know and callously declares that her baby brother is a dead boy walking, the same baby brother she implored Jon to save a few episodes before. Yeah ShowSansa is a real heroine. 

Still not seeing how this is treasonous activity to House Stark. Especially if you want to think that Jon SNOW isn't part of the house. 

[xjlxking]

6 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

Still not seeing how this is treasonous activity to House Stark. Especially if you want to think that Jon SNOW isn't part of the house. 

Jon was a Snow. Legally, he does not represent Starks. 

Yes, Sansa was treasonous. She apologized for lying and misleading Jon. Had she told him, we'd still have a Giant walking in the North 

[Lord Godric]

2 minutes ago, xjlxking said:

 

Yes, Sansa was treasonous.

How? 

[El Guapo]

12 minutes ago, teej6 said:

House Stark would be extinct? As far as I can tell, Jon SNOW, House Mormont, and the Wildlings were the ones being defeated in battle. There were no Starks in the battle except for Rickon who would probably be still alive if Sansa had deigned to tell Jon that she had written to LF to come to their aid with the Vale army. But no, the brilliant Sansa just made a lot of noise and told Jon the obvious about not attacking since they don't have enough men. When Jon asks her for a solution, she doesn't say that they might get reinforcements or offer a constructive solution, instead she just says I don't know and callously declares that her baby brother is a dead boy walking, the same baby brother she implored Jon to save a few episodes before. Yeah ShowSansa is a real heroine. 

So basically you are as naive as Jon Snow and thinking that Ramsey was ever going to let Rickon live.

[teej6]

Just now, Lord Godric said:

Still not seeing how this is treasonous activity to House Stark. Especially if you want to think that Jon SNOW isn't part of the house. 

I didn't say her acts were treasonous but she probably could have saved a lot of men and her baby brother if she had told Jon the truth. Sansa came across as self-serving, deceitful and callous. She's the one who convinced Jon to attack and take back WF and save Rickon. Then a few episodes later when Jon is all ready for battle Sansa's split personality takes over and she says don't attack and our baby brother cannot be saved. Jon was commanding the forces she asked him to form and yet she does not tell him about the Vale army. I see it as a betrayal on her part although perhaps that's how it comes across because of bad writing by two hacks who can't manage a consistent storyline. 

[xjlxking]

Just now, Lord Godric said:

How? 

Kept information from the commander. If it was LF, or Cersei doing that to someone else, we would probably consider that a treasonous move to consolidate power.

 

There was no reason for her to hold that information back unless she wanted to be the hero of the battle or trying to make Sure Jon fails. Hell, i would let it go but apparently, the point of the war room/conference that they had was to offer advise. She was willing to give Jon advise regarding how her little brother was dead to right. Yet couldn't mention that there were other possible allies...he even asked her!

[teej6]

4 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

So basically you are as naive as Jon Snow and thinking that Ramsey was ever going to let Rickon live.

Well ShowRamsay is a strategist isn't he? Or at least that's what the writers want us to believe. In that case, if he's surrounded by a large army, don't you think Ramsay would keep Rickon alive as a hostage? And besides brilliant Sansa initial game plan was to save Rickon. Or have you forgotton?

[El Guapo]

3 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Well ShowRamsay is a strategist isn't he? Or at least that what tve writers want us to believe. In that case, if he's surrounded by a large army, don't you think Ramsay would keep Rickon alive as a hostage? And besides brilliant Sansa initial game plan was to save Rickon. Or have you forgotton?

No, He is a psychopath who likes to play sick games with people just as Sansa said. There was no way Rickon was ever going to survive. 

[teej6]

2 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

No, He is a psychopath who likes to play sick games with people just as Sansa said. There was no way Rickon was ever going to survive. 

That is book Ramsay. ShowRamsay destroyed seasoned commander Stannis' supplies with 20 good men and then proceeded to destroy Stannis and his army. 

And the whole game he played with Jon using Rickon was to lure Jon to attack, not just a sick game as you say. ShowRamsay is a brillant strategist who even managed to take out his cunning and astute father. 

[Lord Godric]

9 minutes ago, xjlxking said:

Kept information from the commander. If it was LF, or Cersei doing that to someone else, we would probably consider that a treasonous move to consolidate power.

 

There was no reason for her to hold that information back unless she wanted to be the hero of the battle or trying to make Sure Jon fails. Hell, i would let it go but apparently, the point of the war room/conference that they had was to offer advise. She was willing to give Jon advise regarding how her little brother was dead to right. Yet couldn't mention that there were other possible allies...he even asked her!

I fail to see how keeping the information from his can be considered treasonous when she was the reason they won the battle. A stupid decision, sure. Treason, no.