Discussing Sansa XXVII: Northern ways...

[Hoo]

To chime in on the three dragons, isn't there a theory the imp is also a Targ?

Mother died at birth just like Jon's, Tywin denounced him, dragons sniffed him as a friendly, he always dreamed of having a dragon as a child??

[Cas Stark]

11 hours ago, Lord Godric said:

That's assuming she caused the situation in the first place. Unless you blame her for running away from Ramsey too. 

On the show, she was presented with a choice, marry Ramsay or go back to the Vale. 

But the purpose of attacking WF was to get their brother back, not avenge Sansa, and she first convinces Jon they need to get Rickon and then announces Rickon is 'already dead'.....part of her duel personality personna.  

If we don't want to call what she did Treason, then we can just call it a betrayal of Jon and the people who fought for him.

[divica]

2 hours ago, Hoo said:

To chime in on the three dragons, isn't there a theory the imp is also a Targ?

Mother died at birth just like Jon's, Tywin denounced him, dragons sniffed him as a friendly, he always dreamed of having a dragon as a child??

I think that would be just bad.

The targs should be jaime and cercei. It makes more sense that aerys slept with joanna in the first night of her mariage. They fit in the mad/great prob (Jaime—great,Cersei—mad,Joffrei—mad) and it would be fitting that the son tywin always hated to be his only true son while his loved ones aren t his sons at all.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Oh this is difficult trying to analyze an inconsistent character because you may end up giving the writers to much credit.

I wanted to better understand what happened with Sansa last season so I watched only her scenes from the last few seasons. My final interpretation, to put it simply, was that she was going to stop Ramsay no matter the cost.

Now this season we have to look through a faux-feud to see clearly. On a personal level it truly was nice to see Sansa feel safe and confident enough to have a voice. Sansa is a Stark at home with friends, family and can finally speak her thoughts.... but...

 I do not think Sansa should have spoken against Jon so forcefully in court like that. The points are irrelevant, it was just handled poorly. That was not the way to play Jon. What did Littlefinger tell her? Once you know what they want... Jon wants unity above all else and Sansa questioning him like that could cause serious division. Sansa is a Stark and her voice holds more weight than anyone else. Imagine if that was Bran or Rickon questioning Jon... lords could start succession wars over shit like this... but...

Even though we can see her playing with Jon a little bit you can still see more trust coming into their relationship, I think, I hope, idk.... what are they trying to tell us since Sansa spoke up after Royce - speaking for her Vale army - spoke against the Umbers and Karstarks. Does she still feel she needs her own army or does she want them for the good of all? I'll go with the latter, I guess, because I don't think that Jon and Sansa will go against each other. Like I said above I believe last year Sansa had revenge tunnel vision.

I do hate they have Sansa slamming Ned and Robb, it's disgusting. Particularly the "father couldn't protect me" line... I guess they forgot he literally lost his head to protect her. But I guess I have to let it go the same way as Moat Cailin and many other things.

I also hate the line "Everyone who's ever crossed her, she's found a way to murder." Um... doesn't Cersei blame Sansa for killing Joffery. So is it a done deal then? Cersei will find a way to murder Sansa? Sansa 'knows her', and Sansa knows this about her, so is this foreshowing? Or are they just trying to make Cersei look more badass and a bigger threat?

It's also strange when you look at the rest of the parallels in the episode. Are the writers trying to tell us something or would that give them too much credit?

First you have Jaime and Cersei. They do have a private discussion before holding court and it works very well even though they have more tension and strife in their relationship. So what does this tell us about Jon and Sansa? Does Jon need to set aside time for Sansa to hash out important points before court? I think so, but I'll cut them some slack since not only are Jaime and Cersei older but they are lovers that have been sharing secrets for years. Jon and Sansa could make it work and it does feel like they are trying.

Next we have Arya getting revenge against those that betrayed their family, intended as a fist pump moment. So why can't Sansa get revenge against those that betrayed their family? Well Arya does spare the women and children where Sansa was, indirectly or not, going after the women and children. If it was intended as a parallel, which I doubt, it ties back to how the Lannisters treated Sansa and it makes her a hypocrite. But does that make her less deserving of vengeance, justice, loyalty or safety? I don't think so.

Sorry, my thoughts were all over the place and my post is probably a convoluted mess. It's not easy trying to figure out what you are supposed to take away from this character. Final take, Jon needs to respect and listen to Sansa. Sansa needs to speak more honestly and plainly if she wants Jon to use her advice. That's an awful lot of trouble for something so simple.... faux-tension

[Mladen]

31 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

On the show, she was presented with a choice, marry Ramsay or go back to the Vale. 

But the purpose of attacking WF was to get their brother back, not avenge Sansa, and she first convinces Jon they need to get Rickon and then announces Rickon is 'already dead'.....part of her duel personality personna.  

If we don't want to call what she did Treason, then we can just call it a betrayal of Jon and the people who fought for him.

Everything you said is true but the simple fact is that the show doesn't hold that view. For Jon, that was not treason. For those lords fighting, that was not treason. What was it? God only knows but it does seem we are not supposed to see it as treason. Perhaps the necessity of having Gandalfian moment was more important than the narrative consequences of such act.

42 minutes ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

Oh this is difficult trying to analyze an inconsistent character because you may end up giving the writers to much credit.

I wanted to better understand what happened with Sansa last season so I watched only her scenes from the last few seasons. My final interpretation, to put it simply, was that she was going to stop Ramsay no matter the cost.

From time to time, I watch the scenes with Sansa and I would agree that for her, the marriage itself was supposed a way to undermine Boltons from within. The problem well, Ramsay wasn't what they expected. So, the plan backfired. 

I agree with your analysis, it is in many ways difficult to estimate this relationship. Simply, too many illogical things have happened to make some sort of judgement. In a way, Sansa became the most difficult character to read, not because she is some Varys level manipulator, but it is the fact that she has written that way.

I can say that I am truly bothered by the changes in the character. The book Sansa understands the individuality, she knows that one can't blame the entire family for something and yet... 

[Tagganaro]

47 minutes ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

Oh this is difficult trying to analyze an inconsistent character because you may end up giving the writers to much credit.

I wanted to better understand what happened with Sansa last season so I watched only her scenes from the last few seasons. My final interpretation, to put it simply, was that she was going to stop Ramsay no matter the cost.

 

Yeah, I think you just kind of have to put last season out of your head.  I don't think it will ever make any sense and there were unfortunately a lot of those clunky kind of mis-steps where the writers let plot dictate character with no concerns for the integrity of the character.  They needed to get Sansa to WF so they got her there.  

49 minutes ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

 I do not think Sansa should have spoken against Jon so forcefully in court like that. The points are irrelevant, it was just handled poorly. That was not the way to play Jon. What did Littlefinger tell her? Once you know what they want... Jon wants unity above all else and Sansa questioning him like that could cause serious division. Sansa is a Stark and her voice holds more weight than anyone else. Imagine if that was Bran or Rickon questioning Jon... lords could start succession wars over shit like this... but...

Even though we can see her playing with Jon a little bit you can still see more trust coming into their relationship, I think, I hope, idk.... what are they trying to tell us since Sansa spoke up after Royce - speaking for her Vale army - spoke against the Umbers and Karstarks. Does she still feel she needs her own army or does she want them for the good of all? I'll go with the latter, I guess, because I don't think that Jon and Sansa will go against each other. Like I said above I believe last year Sansa had revenge tunnel vision

I agree that Sansa probably handled that poorly as far as form...speaking out like that was undermining of Jon.  I also agree that you see more trust coming in from her side-  She is getting a better understanding of Jon and Jon's honor and sentimentality while also trying to assert her place in all this.  I think I can understand that she is not entirely comfortable with the arrrangement as she is a Stark and Jon is a Snow and she wants to assert at least SOME of her power.

52 minutes ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

I do hate they have Sansa slamming Ned and Robb, it's disgusting. Particularly the "father couldn't protect me" line... I guess they forgot he literally lost his head to protect her. But I guess I have to let it go the same way as Moat Cailin and many other things.

I also hate the line "Everyone who's ever crossed her, she's found a way to murder." Um... doesn't Cersei blame Sansa for killing Joffery. So is it a done deal then? Cersei will find a way to murder Sansa? Sansa 'knows her', and Sansa knows this about her, so is this foreshowing? Or are they just trying to make Cersei look more badass and a bigger threat?

I didn't mind these lines.  I enjoyed both of them because i thought they showed Sansa's concern for Jon.  Whatever you want to say about Ned, he certainly left Sansa in a hellish situation in King's Landing, whoever you want to place fault on for that.  Sansa loves Jon and doesn't want to lose him to the same honor that she lost Ned and Robb too.  Her concern about Cersei echoes her feelings for Jon...she does not want to lose him.

[Zumbs]

1 hour ago, Elaena Targaryen said:

 I do not think Sansa should have spoken against Jon so forcefully in court like that. The points are irrelevant, it was just handled poorly.

As I consider and reconsider that scene, I think the point is actually to show how unaccustomed with ruling Jon and Sansa are. Unlike Robb and Bran, neither of them were groomed for ruling by Ned Stark. This is underlined by making their discussion awkward. If I am right, it is not foreboding of a future conflict.

It also illustrates the difference in their thinking.

Jon continues ruling the North in the same way he acted as Lord Commander. The real threat is north of the Wall. Everyone else must stand together, and he is ready to trust anyone that could be an ally. What he does not comprehend (or refuses to comprehend) is that not everyone sees the white walkers as the enemy or even believes that they exist. This causes him to take action that will cause resentment among his allies without any strategy to deflect or contain that resentment. If he does not watch himself, he could end up with a knife in his belly. Again.

Sansa comes from the south and sees the main threat as coming from the south. And I suspect that most northmen and knights of the Vale agree with her. Thus, she is trying to build an alliance to avoid close allies being bought by the Lannisters.

[HungLikeHodor]

Seems like someone who had to beg Joffrey not to shoot her with a crossbow for the crimes of her father would be a little more sympathetic to other people who had no control over the crimes of their families.

[nyser1]

Sansa calling her brother and father stupid is laughable at best. Her stupidity is seen countless times, not to mention she messed things up for her father and family (i.e. kingsroad, telling the Queen of her father's intentions).

[El Guapo]

1 hour ago, nyser1 said:

Sansa calling her brother and father stupid is laughable at best. Her stupidity is seen countless times, not to mention she messed things up for her father and family (i.e. kingsroad, telling the Queen of her father's intentions).

She never did that.

[Thor Odinson]

4 hours ago, nyser1 said:

Sansa calling her brother and father stupid is laughable at best. Her stupidity is seen countless times, not to mention she messed things up for her father and family (i.e. kingsroad, telling the Queen of her father's intentions).

Wow, you're referencing back to a time when she was 13 years old, while at the same time unwilling to hold a man in his 40's to account for his mistakes?

Ned Stark, while I love the guy, did make some pretty big mistakes, and those mistakes got him killed. Just like Robb Stark made some pretty big mistakes, and those mistakes got him killed. So yeah, she's perfectly justified in saying so. She's not simply bad mouthing them, but trying to ensure that Jon doesn't repeat their mistakes (Which he has been doing, and which HAS ALREADY GOTTEN HIM KILLED ONCE!). It should not take a fifth, sixth, or seventh stab in the gut for him to learn his lesson.

[Raksha 2014]

22 hours ago, teej6 said:

I didn't say her acts were treasonous but she probably could have saved a lot of men and her baby brother if she had told Jon the truth. Sansa came across as self-serving, deceitful and callous. She's the one who convinced Jon to attack and take back WF and save Rickon. Then a few episodes later when Jon is all ready for battle Sansa's split personality takes over and she says don't attack and our baby brother cannot be saved. Jon was commanding the forces she asked him to form and yet she does not tell him about the Vale army. I see it as a betrayal on her part although perhaps that's how it comes across because of bad writing by two hacks who can't manage a consistent storyline. 

 

Sometimes I get very frustrated with the writing of Sansa, at least in the last few seasons.  (it was fairly consistent in the first two seasons)  Sansa's using Rickon as a goad to spur Jon to fight Ramsay and later telling Jon that Rickon will be killed no matter what Jon does is pretty cold, unless D&D are trying to present Sansa as coldly manipulative of her brother.  But unless Sansa is the best actress in Westeros, she was genuinely happy to see him again when they met at the Wall, and genuinely regretted how she treated him in the past.  I would think that Sansa is smart enough to know that she should not double-cross and manipulate the brother who has sworn to protect her; to save her fledgeling game-playing efforts for Littlefinger.  If not, I would say that Sansa is so emotionally damaged that she cannot trust anyone with the possible exception of Brienne or Theon.  Or that she has become the Cersei of the Starks, or is trying to.  But I'm not really getting a feeling of definition of character from the TV version of Sansa...

[Raksha 2014]

On 7/18/2017 at 8:33 PM, Hoo said:

When Ellaria killed Doran she said weak men will never rule Dorne again.  That's the theme!

Olena rules, Cersei, Daenerys, Ellaria.  Yara is rising.  

There are weak men in the North.  One of them is little Robyn.  Another is Jon Snow.

"Weak" Doran managed to keep Dorne safe and free of war for decades.  "Strong" Ellaria murdered/arranged the murder of her beloved Oberyn's brother, nephew, and nephew's fiancee supposedly to avenge him, igniting Lannister wrath for the murder of the innocent Myrcella.  Ellaria is a loose cannon, not a strong woman.  We don't know who the actual ruler of House Tyrell is.  Cersei is even worse than Ellaria; she's not half as smart as she thinks she is.  Strength does not automatically mean destruction; if a ruler does not pair his/her strength with compassion and intelligence, he/she will not be effective.

 

[Ser Snowflake]

On 7/16/2017 at 11:12 PM, Ari27 said:

She usually behaves very childish and selfish, I was surprised be her this episode. She made Jon look like an idiot(which he was).

it seems Jon doesn't trust her no matter what she says, smart or stupid. That spells trouble.

How did she make Jon look like an idiot? I thought Sansa looked rather idiotic and forgetful. 

Sansa seems to have forgotten how Joffrey had his goons strip her and beat her in court because of the crimes of her brother Robb. Now she wants to do the same for the Umbers and Karstarks. If Jon stripped those castles of the Umbers and Karstarks and gave them to his more loyal supporters, that would be the opening Cersei and the Lannisters need to infiltrate the North. She would have an ally in the Umbers and Karstarks. 

At this point, Cersei has bigger fish to fry than marching her army north to fight the Starks in the middle of winter. Cersei has to deal with the Dragon Queen. The only way she can bring Jon down is if she can sow discontent within his ranks. 

[Lord Godric]

5 hours ago, nyser1 said:

Sansa calling her brother and father stupid is laughable at best. Her stupidity is seen countless times, not to mention she messed things up for her father and family (i.e. kingsroad, telling the Queen of her father's intentions).

I don't understand why it is laughable. It is generally agreed upon that Ned, while doing the noble thing, was completely politically clueless. Because of that he was caught and killed. Same goes for Robb. Robb was foolish to trust Theon, foolish to trust the Freys but he did and it ended with the Red Wedding. You cannot compare Sansa's actions from the very beginning of the series before any character development to the political failings of her brother and father. 

[Lord Godric]

6 hours ago, HungLikeHodor said:

Seems like someone who had to beg Joffrey not to shoot her with a crossbow for the crimes of her father would be a little more sympathetic to other people who had no control over the crimes of their families.

She wasn't asking for the children to be killed, she was suggesting they reward loyalty. 

[teej6]

3 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

Sometimes I get very frustrated with the writing of Sansa, at least in the last few seasons.  (it was fairly consistent in the first two seasons)  Sansa's using Rickon as a goad to spur Jon to fight Ramsay and later telling Jon that Rickon will be killed no matter what Jon does is pretty cold, unless D&D are trying to present Sansa as coldly manipulative of her brother.  But unless Sansa is the best actress in Westeros, she was genuinely happy to see him again when they met at the Wall, and genuinely regretted how she treated him in the past.  I would think that Sansa is smart enough to know that she should not double-cross and manipulate the brother who has sworn to protect her; to save her fledgeling game-playing efforts for Littlefinger.  If not, I would say that Sansa is so emotionally damaged that she cannot trust anyone with the possible exception of Brienne or Theon.  Or that she has become the Cersei of the Starks, or is trying to.  But I'm not really getting a feeling of definition of character from the TV version of Sansa...

The writers shoehorned Sansa into the WF storyline not thinking through how they would develop her character. Their thought process was who would care about a nameless character (Jeyne Poole) being abused and tortured by Ramsay so let's give that plot to poor abused Sansa to be tortured and abused some more. This way they thought they can transform Sansa into revenge seeking cold hearted Badass and give her the girl power moment they seem to be so fond of. But instead of an assertive and intelligent Sansa now we get Sandra who vacillates from caring sister to backstabbing plotter and who can't seem to keep a consistent thought in her head. The best use D&D in their infinite wisdom (sarcasm) could find with Sansa's character is to provide tension and suspense in the North and in the process they made LF (the master player) dumb and a love sick puppy. 

[Ice Walker]

39 minutes ago, teej6 said:

The writers shoehorned Sansa into the WF storyline not thinking through how they would develop her character. Their thought process was who would care about a nameless character (Jeyne Poole) being abused and tortured by Ramsay so let's give that plot to poor abused Sansa to be tortured and abused some more. This way they thought they can transform Sansa into revenge seeking cold hearted Badass and give her the girl power moment they seem to be so fond of. But instead of an assertive and intelligent Sansa now we get Sandra who vacillates from caring sister to backstabbing plotter and who can't seem to keep a consistent thought in her head. The best use D&D in their infinite wisdom (sarcasm) could find with Sansa's character is to provide tension and suspense in the North and in the process they made LF (the master player) dumb and a love sick puppy. 

 with everything you said. To be honest, I was really excited at the prospect of placing Sansa in the North in season 5. With all the "The North Remembers" phrases thrown around(even by servants) along with Stannis marching with his good-sized army towards Winterfell almost made me think that "D&D got this." Eventually, Twenty of House Goodmen showed the true qualities of the writers.

[Angel Eyes]

7 hours ago, Ice Walker said:

 with everything you said. To be honest, I was really excited at the prospect of placing Sansa in the North in season 5. With all the "The North Remembers" phrases thrown around(even by servants) along with Stannis marching with his good-sized army towards Winterfell almost made me think that "D&D got this." Eventually, Twenty of House Goodmen showed the true qualities of the writers.

And then the North proceeds. To. Forget. What was up with that? It seemed like the Northern houses were just as loyal as the Freys, and Tywin Lannister circa Robert's Rebellion. 

I just hope Sansa takes a bloody hint, there's bigger things to worry about than the Mad Queen. Plus, I guess I ship Jon and Sansa as far as the remaining characters are concerned. 

[El Guapo]

11 hours ago, Ser Snowflake said:

How did she make Jon look like an idiot? I thought Sansa looked rather idiotic and forgetful. 

Sansa seems to have forgotten how Joffrey had his goons strip her and beat her in court because of the crimes of her brother Robb. Now she wants to do the same for the Umbers and Karstarks. If Jon stripped those castles of the Umbers and Karstarks and gave them to his more loyal supporters, that would be the opening Cersei and the Lannisters need to infiltrate the North. She would have an ally in the Umbers and Karstarks. 

At this point, Cersei has bigger fish to fry than marching her army north to fight the Starks in the middle of winter. Cersei has to deal with the Dragon Queen. The only way she can bring Jon down is if she can sow discontent within his ranks. 

I must have missed the part where Sansa had poor Ned and Alys dragged in front of the room and then ordered Brienne to start wailing on them. Maybe I will need to rewatch that scene.