Risto

Discussing Sansa XXVII: Northern ways...

191 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

39 minutes ago, xjlxking said:

Except Sansa kept information from Jon hoping he'd need her. When he asked her where he can get more men from, she did not inform him about the Veil.

Good think Jon killed every wilding instead of sparing them.

Sansa learned so much from Cersei. Look what position she is in now because of the approach she took

I think she kept info from him because she knows he is all temprament, and would have misused it.

Cersei has bad luggage, starting with incest, a psycho son, just a dysfunctional family.  Jaime tells Edmure that they would kill all of Blackfish's men for their children or each other.    Cersei did that with the sept,   But she made sure Tomen would survive.  They don't make dumb moves.  Whereas Jon took 2000 men to death to save Rickon who was going to die no matter what.  That's the difference between right and wrong and heart, light and darkness.

i think Sansa is the light.

I think Cersei is finally free.  She told Jaime, we have ourselves to fight for.  No more family.  Just her, finally, no more family headaches.  And then Eurone told her, she should kill her brother too, it's liberating.  She is finally free of BS.

But, unfortunately Arya is coming.

Edited by Hoo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, divica said:

Dont agree. Jon agrees with killing the traitors. what he doesn t agree is punishing the familly of the traitors because the leader of their familly was a traitor. He just wants to kill the people who actually betray him.

Sansa's stance is useful to rule through intimidation while jon's stance is useful to rule through loyalty and love (which was how the northerners felt about ned). I think the show is trying to portray jon as what could possibly be a great ruler while sansa is using cersei's tactics.

There is no love in ethics, there is right and wrong. Jon has a lot of emotions.  He killed the traitors but feels bad about it.  He wants to save everyone.  He did not even kill Ramsey.  He is s mess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

51 minutes ago, Hoo said:

I think she kept info from him because she knows he is all temprament, and would have misused it.

Cersei has bad luggage, starting with incest, a psycho son, just a dysfunctional family.  Jaime tells Edmure that they would kill all of Blackfish's men for their children or each other.    Cersei did that with the sept,   But she made sure Tomen would survive.  They don't make dumb moves.  Whereas Jon took 2000 men to death to save Rickon who was going to die no matter what.  That's the difference between right and wrong and heart, light and darkness.

i think Sansa is the light.

I think Cersei is finally free.  She told Jaime, we have ourselves to fight for.  No more family.  Just her, finally, no more family headaches.  And then Eurone told her, she should kill her brother too, it's liberating.  She is finally free of BS.

But, unfortunately Arya is coming.

-

I don't know why Sansa is to be considered de facto a good guy.

There are things and instances in the show that points to a far more grayer color for her. Far far grayer, leaning to black. Now these may be the showrunners miscommunicating the character with lazy writing, but until proven otherwise I will judge Sansa from her actions and not her family name.

They are in the eve of the most important battle. An all or nothing battle. How could Jon misuse the information that the Knights of the Vale are comming to his aid? Would he sent them back? No. He would coordinate with them. It is a show, but as played Starks are very lucky that the Knights arrived not only in the same day of the battle, but at the same hour. Starks could have lost the battle only because Jon went to battle while the KoV where still riding through the Neck.

There are two probable explanations for Sansa NOT telling abt the Knights of the Vale. 1) Show needed to maintain suspense, they had Sansa to keep it a secret for no reason 2) Sansa wanted to take most of the credit for the victory herself and maybe see Jon killed in action (a moment after the KoV charge, she spots a living and fighting Jon gives him a weird, dissapointed and kind of a bitter look in the lines "he is still alive")

In this episode she opposes Jon in front of everyone and I think that she does it for the sake of opposing him in front of everyone. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Sansa has huge trust issues at this point. Almost everyone she's ever depended on has let her down - her father, Robb, Cersei and Joffrey (who she trusted for several months at least), and Littlefinger.  I think she wants to trust Jon, but it's hard, especially when she fears he is going to get himself killed and, by consequence, herself put in danger/killed.  

Both Jon and Sansa had valid points of view in Dragonstone.  Jon wants to uphold his father's style of ruling, the traditions and compassion that made Ned Stark so beloved, and give the traitors' innocent children a new chance to uphold their Houses' honor.  Sansa worries that Jon is so busy trying to be Ned Jr. or Robb II that he'll make their mistake of ignoring the political side of ruling and end up dead.  Sansa's point that Jon should reward those most loyal to him is valid as well.  And Jon has very little political experience, while Sansa has observed politics at fairly close range.  Jon is putting politics on the back burner in order to concentrate on the great threat of the Walkers.  The thing is, politics are important in that if one ignores them in Westeros, one can easily end up dead; and a dead-again Jon won't be of much use in fighting the Walkers.  Also, although the Northern Lords don't play as sophisticated a political game as the Southerners, Littlefinger's presence, which includes the Vale Knights, means that the Game of Thrones has come to Winterfell and must be played there.  

I agree with Jon's having restored the Umber and Karstark heirs to their ancestral seats in return for the youngsters' pledges of fealty to House Stark.  But I think he should have arranged a betrothal of each kid to an heir of a Stark-friendly House, or taken the kids on as wards of House Stark.  

I don't think that Sansa is going to betray Jon this season.  If she does, I think it would be a huge mistake on her part.  But I can understand why she seems to alternate between simmering and sulking.  Sansa is home, but doesn't feel 'at home'; she should be the favored daughter of House Stark, but little Lady Mormont is getting more acclaim; and Jon, now head of House Stark and King In the North, barely listens to her.

It might be good for Sansa to actually be in charge of Winterfell when Jon goes to war or to Dragonstone.  Hopefully it will be good for Winterfell as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

It's quite interesting to see this thread having read the spoilers. My input will simply be i love her S7 look so far.

Edited by SecretWeapon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

No, withholding crucial information from her half brother/cousin on the Vale army is what makes her either treasonous or dumb or both.  Contradicting Jon and then going on to squabble with him in public is Fredo stupid.  

Her decision to withhold the Vale army info speaks volumes about her lack of integrity. She has had a long pattern of willingness to throw people under the bus, going back to the Micah/Arya/Joffrey (swordplay by the river) incident. 

I suspect she will betray someone this season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sansa shutting off LF was her best moment in this episode.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, greensleeves said:

There's a word with no sexist conotations. /sarcasm

I have to ask what the point of these threads is. I doubt many Sansa fans still watch the show (I don't). The show's creators have made it pretty clear that they don't care about or respect this character or gender issues in general.

So here is a question for Risto:

Is show-Sansa well-written enough (or even coherent enough) to actually merit these analysis threads?

My personal answer is no. In the absence of an opportunity for actual thoughtful commentary, these threads seem like just an opportunity for knee-jerk Sansa hate.

Sansa is Sansa... Books or TV, she needs a good defense and these threads are no different than any book thread. Two Four years ago, these threads started as the analysis of why TV Sansa is so different from her book counterpart and what's happening there. And then it became part of my life during the season. 

I know about hate, but that is just the part of any Sansa discussion. So, they continue the hate, I continue with my work... We're all happy in what we do :D 

7 hours ago, Christi84 said:

Her little snipes relating him to Joffrey, Ned and Robb show how little respect she has for him, and shes trying to placate him here and there with her words. But you just know shes pissed shes not queen as Ned's trueborn child and how much no one cared about her. No one tried to rescue her when she was married off to Ramsay or listened to her pleas for support, even little Lady Mormont mocked her. She hates that Jon, a bastard, is treated better than her, still being a spoiled brat I cant stand.

The writers are not THAT smart and subtle to put all of that into that performance. What we do know from everyone involved, Sansa's main problem with Jon is his reluctance to listen to her. As I said, it is not like she has been building her case to be listened. As for relating him to others, she wants to make a point. She wants to tell him that it is good that she can speak to him, freely. Yes, he is King, and I seriously doubt the idea that she wants to be Queen, or that she wants Jon overthrown. When he asked her about him being smart, her answer "Would that be that terrible" just shows her real problem. She wants respect and it seems she doesn't get any from him. I am not saying she is right in this, just that it is how she feels.

Edited by Risto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Risto said:

Sansa is Sansa... Books or TV, she needs a good defense and these threads are no different than any book thread. Two years ago, these threads started as the analysis of why TV Sansa is so different from her book counterpart and what's happening there. And then it became part of my life during the season. 

I know about hate, but that is just the part of any Sansa discussion. So, they continue the hate, I continue with my work... We're all happy in what we do :D 

The writers are not THAT smart and subtle to put all of that into that performance. What we do know from everyone involved, Sansa's main problem with Jon is his reluctance to listen to her. As I said, it is not like she has been building her case to be listened. As for relating him to others, she wants to make a point. She wants to tell him that it is good that she can speak to him, freely. Yes, he is King, and I seriously doubt the idea that she wants to be Queen, or that she wants Jon overthrown. When he asked her about him being smart, her answer "Would that be that terrible" just shows her real problem. She wants respect and it seems she doesn't get any from him. I am not saying she is right in this, just that it is how she feels.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Sansa doesn't want a crown; she wants respect. I fully believe Sansa is trying to protect her family, not sabotage them, and from her point of view Jon is being too stubborn to see that. That line you quoted, "would that be so terrible?" showed a lot of maturity for her as well. Aside from giving a gentle response to counteract her brother's rising temper, it also showed that she's really not all that much like Cersei, regardless of how she styles her hair now. Cersei would have given Jon a much more colorful response. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Content and Delivery. Sansa was rude, disrespectful and acting like a brat. Lady Bolton was a traitor when she wedded and was willingly bedded until "that moment" by Ramsay and in my mind is more a traitor to house stark than Little Umber and long Face Karstark for doing so. It was a hugely hypocritical moment from her and I wish Jon called her out on it. I did enjoy her telling off Littlefinger but do not be fooled, She will be nestling up with him as this season goes. Smooch here and there. This is how she rolls. Sansa Stark-Bane. Lady Bolton by the Laws of Gods and Men.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Remember in season 6 when people said that the ginger will betray leeroy jenkins and ended by saving him from a massacre?

Same thing will happen this season

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Her decision to withhold the Vale army info speaks volumes about her lack of integrity. She has had a long pattern of willingness to throw people under the bus, going back to the Micah/Arya/Joffrey (swordplay by the river) incident. 

I suspect she will betray someone this season.

 She won't. But that's not the issue. Sansa never told Jon because the show didn't want her to tell him, to keep the suspense. There's no logic in-story for it, and that's why Sansa apologizes to him the next episode. Neither the writers nor Sophie/Kit could explain why she kept it a secret. That's due to plot necessity.

 

4 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Content and Delivery. Sansa was rude, disrespectful and acting like a brat. Lady Bolton was a traitor when she wedded and was willingly bedded until "that moment" by Ramsay and in my mind is more a traitor to house stark than Little Umber and long Face Karstark for doing so. It was a hugely hypocritical moment from her and I wish Jon called her out on it. I did enjoy her telling off Littlefinger but do not be fooled, She will be nestling up with him as this season goes. Smooch here and there. This is how she rolls. Sansa Stark-Bane. Lady Bolton by the Laws of Gods and Men.

The show never really explained why Sansa married Ramsay, but it was mainly for "revenge", so it wasn't treason. It couldn't really be, since she's the Head of her House. Sansa took back Winterfell and restored the Starks to their ruling seat in Winterfell.

 

7 hours ago, SecretWeapon said:

It's quite interesting to see this thread having read the spoilers. My input will simply be i love her S7 look so far.

Yeah, when you have the info about the entirety of the plot, some points seem almost moronic. LOL 

Anyway, there's no logic in believing Sansa will betray Jon. Sansa wants respect, and I have a feeling she'll eventually get it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was thinking that Baelish will use his usual trick and use the Vale army against Jon in order to give Winterfell to Cersei now after everybody left, but again Sansa will save the "know nothing" boy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, xjlxking said:

I think the worst part is, she believes that she is still in a situation where she can play the "game of thrones". Like there is no one in the room but LF who was push to destabilize the north.

 

And that part about Eddark making stupid decision? HELLO!! The guy was able to overthrown the strongest dynasty the world has ever known. He was not that dumb. The fact that he choose to show mercy, compassion, and keep his honor does not make him stupid. it's like Eddark said, "you think my life is some precious thing to me? That I would trade my honor for a few more years"

I think most fans agree that whole Ned wasn't dumb, he was politically clueless. And there's a reason that Sansa is drawing these parallels (from a meta level I mean). Doing the just thing is not the politically smart thing, and I'm sure Jon will learn that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sansa's opinion that Cersei is a threat is BS (although given her story it's understandable).

However, the Stark tradition of getting killed because 'hey, we have a beef with this family but that's no problem, let's just talk! ^_^' already finished Ned and Robb. And hey, shouldn't those people discuss matters and make decisions before making them public to the crowd? I mean, one time this habit of making controversial moves and not listening to anyone might get Jon killed OH WAIT.

Ah, and the 'daddy didn't swear in front of the girls' was really cute, but when daddy got beheaded for his way of life it was the girls who got to watch it. I get that Ned is a nice nostalgic memory for his kids, but bringing him up as a worldview example in times of conflict is somewhat ridiculous.

15 hours ago, GeorgeIAF said:

Sansa shutting off LF was her best moment in this episode.

Agree, but we all know he's making a comeback in her life sooner or later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, xjlxking said:

Except Sansa kept information from Jon hoping he'd need her. When he asked her where he can get more men from, she did not inform him about the Veil.

Good think Jon killed every wilding instead of sparing them.

Sansa learned so much from Cersei. Look what position she is in now because of the approach she took

Everyone seems to have conveniently forgotten that Jons previous attempt at doing the right thing got him killed. He is not politically smart and needs someone like Sansa to advise him away from these disasters. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What did Littlefinger gain by marrying Sansa to Ramsey Bolton?  What did he want to accomplish?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Cersei is anything like her father, her method of taking down Jon would be to promise power and titles to another Northern house and have them take him out unawares. Unlike in the books, the Northern houses were willing to let the Boltons stay in power until the Starks started rallying to take back Winterfell, so it's not exactly discouraging to other ambitious houses. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If Cersei is anything like her father, her method of taking down Jon would be to promise power and titles to another Northern house and have them take him out unawares. Unlike in the books, the Northern houses were willing to let the Boltons stay in power until the Starks started rallying to take back Winterfell, so it's not exactly discouraging to other ambitious houses. 

She's got a more immediate problem of the other blonde woman with the dragons, the armies, the horde and the navy, on her doorstep as it were.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

The issue is that Jon doesn't respect Sansa and that's what she wants. He should have named her his hand or something alike.

But generally, the plot makes no sense because the show makes no sense. There's no explanation as to why would Sansa ever admire Cersei. 

Edited by Alayne's Shadow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now