Risto

Discussing Sansa XXVII: Northern ways...

191 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Lord Godric said:

Everyone seems to have conveniently forgotten that Jons previous attempt at doing the right thing got him killed. He is not politically smart and needs someone like Sansa to advise him away from these disasters. 

It's also why he was resurrected. If he did not do what he did, he wouldn't have people respect.

Sansa on the other hand nearly got Jon killed and pretty much the last remains of any northern house that supported Starks.

All I'm saying is, if I look at their track record, Jon is far better than Sana at making decision. He has more experience from both the situation he was placed in and decided to become a part of.

 

She contradicts her previous actions and advice she gives to Jon. Don't be emotional? Her track record screams, EMOTIONAL. If anything, Jon was able to make more logical and wise decision despite his emotions. He never betrayed his oath, unlike Robb. He was not emotional when his father got killedm unlike Sansa and Robb. She should not be contradiction him or trying to instill doubt in his decision in front of people who just named him king. More importantly, there is no need for her to compare him with Joffrey and nor emulate Cersei whom lost her entire family for her bid to attain power.

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2 hours ago, Lord Godric said:

Everyone seems to have conveniently forgotten that Jons previous attempt at doing the right thing got him killed. He is not politically smart and needs someone like Sansa to advise him away from these disasters. 

In that case jon was in an impossible situation. The watch and the wildlings hate each other too much.

He couldn t let the wildlings die and there wasn t anything that he could do to appease the watchers... They want all the wildlings dead. In the show there wasn t really anything he could do.

On the other hand, in the book maybe he could have done a little more. However he needs to keep a balance between putting people in charge of other castles he can trust and keeping people around him he can trust. Besides I think in both show and book jon thinks that the watchers should be more concerned with the ww and protecting the Wall from them that their feud with the wildlings.

 

However while in the books it makes sense that they try to kill jon because he is trying to get involved in politcs, in the show killing jon gains them nothing. The wildlings vastly outnumber them, killing jon now is useles!

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11 minutes ago, Alayne's Shadow. said:

The issue is that Jon doesn't respect Sansa and that's what she wants. He should have named her his hand or something alike.

But generally, the plot makes no sense because the show makes no sense. There's no explanation as to why would Sansa ever admire Cersei. 

I don't think Jon doesn't respect her.  He loves and respects her but just doesn't agree with some of her advice.  There are trust issues as well.

I disagree with your 2nd point.  Watching Sansa's arc throughout the show it is easy to see why she would respect Cersei and Cersei's ruthlessness.  I would not say she "admires" her, nor does the show suggest that.  She fears her and has learned a lot from her, including during those rare moments where Cersei has let her guard down in front of Sansa like during the Battle of Blackwater

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21 hours ago, Hoo said:

I think she kept info from him because she knows he is all temprament, and would have misused it.

Cersei has bad luggage, starting with incest, a psycho son, just a dysfunctional family.  Jaime tells Edmure that they would kill all of Blackfish's men for their children or each other.    Cersei did that with the sept,   But she made sure Tomen would survive.  They don't make dumb moves.  Whereas Jon took 2000 men to death to save Rickon who was going to die no matter what.  That's the difference between right and wrong and heart, light and darkness.

i think Sansa is the light.

I think Cersei is finally free.  She told Jaime, we have ourselves to fight for.  No more family.  Just her, finally, no more family headaches.  And then Eurone told her, she should kill her brother too, it's liberating.  She is finally free of BS.

But, unfortunately Arya is coming.

Jon is not temperamental..

 

Cersie did not have bad luggage. She was born into the most richest family in the kingdom, managed to get married to the king without lifting a finger. She also does not have any disability.  Tyrion had baggage...Jon has baggage.

 

Most of what occurred in the series to Cersei is because of her own action. She spoiled her kids to the point that she started a war which got her into this situation. She couldn't keep her oath to her husband, nor keep that one thing a secret. Much smarter and more accomplished men have already described Cersei. She thinks she is smarter than everyone.

 

and no Sansa is definitely no the light. 

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When Ellaria killed Doran she said weak men will never rule Dorne again.  That's the theme!

Olena rules, Cersei, Daenerys, Ellaria.  Yara is rising.  

There are weak men in the North.  One of them is little Robyn.  Another is Jon Snow.

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2 minutes ago, Hoo said:

There are weak men in the North.  One of them is little Robyn.  Another is Jon Snow.

Too bad. Jon is currently the best among the Stark family to rule.

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11 minutes ago, Ice Walker said:

Too bad. Jon is currently the best among the Stark family to rule.

Sansa told him he knows how to swirdfight, he does not know how to win, a war, a game if thrones.  He is weak..  And he has no claim to land.  Maybe Rhaegar's old hold which is currently empty and under Lannister control.

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Just now, Hoo said:

Sansa told him he knows how to swirdfight, he does not know how to win, a war, a game if thrones.  He is weak..  And he has no claim to land.  Maybe Rhaegar's old hold which is currently empty and under Lannister control.

I wouldn't take Sansa as an expert on that subject, or any subject. She couldn't even win Lyanna Mormont or Robett Glover over despite being born to a legitimate Stark.

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2 hours ago, xjlxking said:

All I'm saying is, if I look at their track record, Jon is far better than Sana at making decision. He has more experience from both the situation he was placed in and decided to become a part of.

I don't see that at all. Jon has made so many mistakes in how he's managed things. Sansa has never had the same opportunities as she has perpetually been a victim and smaller character. Like I said before, there is a meta-reason that Sansa compared Jon to Ned and Robb, and I think we'll see Sansa proved correct later in the season. 

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5 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

I don't see that at all. Jon has made so many mistakes in how he's managed things. Sansa has never had the same opportunities as she has perpetually been a victim and smaller character. Like I said before, there is a meta-reason that Sansa compared Jon to Ned and Robb, and I think we'll see Sansa proved correct later in the season. 

The worst thing that can happen to jon this season is if sansa steals his position in the north and basicaly betray him.

Can you see how awkward that would be when jon returns with danny and her army? Hell what would arya say to jon when he returns? 

Bsides that jon is ruling thinking on the big picture and doing what needs to be done. He hasn t done any of the mistakes robb and ned did, besides trusting the people close to him... however there is no defense against that.

I find it more likely that sansa fails in her rulling while jon is away and become more humble and supportive of him.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Godric said:

I don't see that at all. Jon has made so many mistakes in how he's managed things. Sansa has never had the same opportunities as she has perpetually been a victim and smaller character. Like I said before, there is a meta-reason that Sansa compared Jon to Ned and Robb, and I think we'll see Sansa proved correct later in the season. 

The only mistake Jon ever did was rushing towards a hostile army to save his youngest "brother." Alliser Thorne being an idiot doesn't mean Jon had made a mistake.

Sansa compared Jon to Ned and Robb because the writers want to empower "Sansa" as someone smart. The best thing they could come up with is to attach the popular opinion from social media to her. Sansa never had the power but let's look at her track record on the show:

S1. Betrayed her own sister and consequently, lost her direwolf

S2. Refused to take the Hound's offer during the Battle of Blackwater

S3. Trusted Littlefinger.

S4. Trusted more Littlefinger and lied to Yohn Royce.

S5. Trusted even more Littlefinger, ignored Brienne and got raped by Ramsay.

S6. Trusted Littlefinger more than Jon. Sent a raven to him even though he is untrustworthy. Kept quiet when her half-brother asked for advice.

S7. Wouldn't even let Jon finish his POV before interrupting over and over.

She has some good one-liners to shut up Joff, Ramsay, and Littlefinger. That's about it.

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4 minutes ago, divica said:

The worst thing that can happen to jon this season is if sansa steals his position in the north and basicaly betray him.

Can you see how awkward that would be when jon returns with danny and her army? Hell what would arya say to jon when he returns? 

Bsides that jon is ruling thinking on the big picture and doing what needs to be done. He hasn t done any of the mistakes robb and ned did, besides trusting the people close to him... however there is no defense against that.

I find it more likely that sansa fails in her rulling while jon is away and become more humble and supportive of him.

- I don't think Sansa will try to steal Jon's position or betray him.

- It's more likely that the popular theory(Sansa will order LF's execution) will come to fruition.

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Sansa beat Ramsey on the battlefield.  Sansa killed Ramsey.  Jon did not.  Jon Snow is basically full of hot air.  That's his description.

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1 minute ago, Hoo said:

Sansa beat Ramsey on the battlefield.  Sansa killed Ramsey.  Jon did not.  Jon Snow is basically full of hot air.  That's his description.

The Knights of the Vale came because of Littlefinger, not Sansa. Even if Sansa hadn't sent the raven and got killed with Jon & the rest, Littlefinger would have beaten the Boltons and become "Warden of the North". That was his backup plan in Season 5 during his meeting with Cersei.

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7 minutes ago, Ice Walker said:

- I don't think Sansa will try to steal Jon's position or betray him.

- It's more likely that the popular theory(Sansa will order LF's execution) will come to fruition.

It might happen, but until then sansa might do other things...

If she has talks with all the lords in the hall all episodes... and jon seems to be away a lot of time... 

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3 minutes ago, Ice Walker said:

The Knights of the Vale came because of Littlefinger, not Sansa. Even if Sansa hadn't sent the raven and got killed with Jon & the rest, Littlefinger would have beaten the Boltons and become "Warden of the North". That was his backup plan in Season 5 during his meeting with Cersei.

Yet Sansa did not ride in with the losers but at the helm of the winning troop.

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1 minute ago, Hoo said:

Yet Sansa did not ride in with the losers but at the helm of the winning troop.

That literally means that she had completely betrayed Jon and the Stark Loyalists. You're just making it worse, dude!:rolleyes:

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16 minutes ago, Hoo said:

Sansa beat Ramsey on the battlefield.  Sansa killed Ramsey.  Jon did not.  Jon Snow is basically full of hot air.  That's his description.

No she didn't.  She double crossed her half brother/cousin by (1) complaining that no one was listening to her, (2) saying she don't know nuthin bout fighting battles anyway, (3) failing to inform John she had sent for the Vale army, we won't get into how Ramsay and his 20 good men failed to notice this giant army moving through the North, LOL.  This makes her a traitor to the North and House Stark.

And yep, she straight up murdered Ramsay.  Not an execution, no trial, no list of his crimes, nothing official about it, pure I spit on your grave revenge.

She is a traitorous beast in the show at this point and should be confined for her own good and the good of everyone around her.

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Posted (edited)

33 minutes ago, Ice Walker said:

That literally means that she had completely betrayed Jon and the Stark Loyalists. You're just making it worse, dude!:rolleyes:

Sansa will not betray Jon.  However, Jon does not deserve to be the KITN by any criteria.  If she removes him that is not betrayal, he is an usurper and rules only with her approval.  LF  is 100% right.

 

JOn Snow betrayed Sansa.  Instead of giving her Winterfell he gave her the bedroom.

Edited by Hoo

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I think Sansa's criticism is more serious for Jon because she is technically the rightful Wardeness of the North. If she objected to Jon being made a king, she would remain the Lady of Winterfell, at least until brother Bran comes home. The criticism and disagreement from the banner men and women seems to be part of the normal discussion among the houses before their liege lord makes a decision. It certainly creates more dramatic tension but there will be enough of that without having to worry about Sansa. Tyrion said she wasn't a killer yet. Maybe he foretold her becoming one in time. She already had Ramsay killed in a pretty cruel way. 

I didn't like it either. I am tired of Sansa being a victim, childish, a pawn, and other things she has been in this series. Her character has a chance to grow into someone remarkable in this season and I hope that is the direction they take her. But with her current behavior and being stuck in the nastiness of what she learned in Kings Landing, I fear her character is going to devolve into a Cercei clone, which would be boring on top of disappointing. There are enough evil schemers in the show. It would be nice to see Sansa figure out how to do good, be powerful and turn the evil scheming she learned into something good.

The thing is, all this tension between Sansa and Jon is temporary. Jon will soon find out he is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, which will elevate him above King of the North. Where will Sansa be when that happens and what will her purpose be then?

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