Reisendame Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 23 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Though as far as killing Littlefinger is concerned, I would like Sansa to do it. 28 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Yeah I don't want her to betray Jon. Speaking of marrying and killing Littlefinger, I heard a prediction that Arya will kill Littlefinger... while using Sansa's face. I thought I posted this, but not sure if it clicked through. SO, someone would have to kill Sansa (without LF's knowledge), then Arya gets her vengeance. Hm. I like the idea of Sansa herself killing him. Maybe Arya could wear Cat's face and lure him into a trap, where Sansa does the deed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Walker Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 7 hours ago, Tagganaro said: The way I took the scene is that the show wanted us to identify with both Jon and Sansa here. Jon may have ended up being right in this particular instance but Sansa's concern for Jon repeating Ned and Robb's mistakes of being too compassionate are also to be noted. That's weird. Robb was called an idiot for not being compassionate before he decided to execute Rickard Karstark. Jon did exactly the opposite of what Robb did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenous reader Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Ice Walker said: That's weird. Robb was called an idiot for not being compassionate before he decided to execute Rickard Karstark. Jon did exactly the opposite of what Robb did. Good point. Perhaps Sansa is not prepared to be ruthless enough for good sense! See below... On 7/17/2017 at 7:14 PM, Corvinus said: Sansa is wrong. She is wrong in how she approached the matter, and she is wrong in her reasoning. In how she approached it, she went too far. Sure other lords voiced their opinions, but Sansa started a full on debate with the king in front of everyone, and when you say things like loyalty not being rewarded, and treason not being punished, while these being a good point in the abstract, in FRONT OF EVERYONE, that clearly undermines the authority of the king. You could see in the faces of the many of the lords that they agreed and were concerned by her words. Relax -- D and D have noticed it gets the fans all riled up to set Sansa at odds with brother-cousin Jon; so now they're milking the family strife and the Sansa hate for all it's worth. That's all. So irrritating and such a cheap shot. The endless bowls of shit cut with the bowls of soup that almost got some of us to puking is done for the same reason -- to poke a finger in the eyes of the fans. Just accept it for what it is. Instead of the 'potty humor' for which they were criticized (the silly Tyrion dick jokes, for example), we're now getting literal potties chucked in our faces while they're inanely chuckling to themselves no doubt on the sidelines like Beavis and Butthead. Quote In her reasoning she is also wrong, because of the current situation. If this had been at the end of a war, and peace was to follow, her reasoning would have been more sound. But the worst war that Westeros has seen in a long, long, time is about to start, and just like it won't matter who sits the Iron Throne, it won't matter who holds which castle. And I would say that allowing the people who lived on Umber and Karstark lands all their lives, and whose loyalty to these houses has been taught from generation to generation, fight under Umber and Karstark banners is a better idea. After all, a number of the houses who sided with Jon did just because of the name of Stark, they kept to their old loyalties. Now Jon is partially at fault here, because no matter how long he talks about them, none of those people really want to believe that the WW are real, and the wildlings are his only witnesses, and they are not trusted. And I agree with Jon that the sins of the parents should not be passed on to the children. That has always been the Westerosi way, feuds carried out over centuries, something Tyrion laments about in the books. So Jon's way of thinking is a new way, the conciliatory way (maybe there is a parallel here with Jaeherys), while Sansa's thinking is the old way. Treason should be plucked out 'root and stem' -- i.e. by eliminating the parents, the children, and all their descendants. Otherwise, as Arya at the beginning of the episode underscored to the Freys, 'leave one wolf alive, the sheep will never be safe...' Robert Baratheon was right -- I never thought I'd ever say that! -- every last one of the 'dragonspawn' should be wiped out; or one fine day, the child grows up and crosses the narrow sea with a horde of Dothraki screamers, an army of Unsullied, and three grown dragons to take back what was taken from her family, as we saw at the end of the episode with Daenerys Targaryen taking back her family seat of Dragonstone. Applied to Sansa and Jon, the only two choices are to eradicate the Umbers and Karstarks entirely, including the two innocent children who appeared before them; or to grant them clemency. Remove heads, not real estate! Or rue the day... On 7/17/2017 at 9:22 PM, Hoo said: I think Cersei is finally free. She told Jaime, we have ourselves to fight for. No more family. Just her, finally, no more family headaches. And then Eurone told her, she should kill her brother too, it's liberating. She is finally free of BS. Preach. Hallelujah! 'Eurone' is definitely the voice of reason we all sorely needed... On 7/17/2017 at 9:39 PM, Hoo said: There is no love in ethics, there is right and wrong. Jon has a lot of emotions. He killed the traitors but feels bad about it. He wants to save everyone. He did not even kill Ramsey. He is s mess. That's right. 'There is no love in ethics'. Let's all strive for maximal psychopathy, regardless of genetic predisposition! 'So much winning...' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvinus85 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Relax -- D and D have noticed it gets the fans all riled up to set Sansa at odds with brother-cousin Jon; so now they're milking the family strife and the Sansa hate for all it's worth. That's all. So irrritating and such a cheap shot. The endless bowls of shit cut with the bowls of soup that almost got some of us to puking is done for the same reason -- to poke a finger in the eyes of the fans. Just accept it for what it is. Instead of the 'potty humor' for which they were criticized (the silly Tyrion dick jokes, for example), we're now getting literal potties chucked in our faces while they're inanely chuckling to themselves no doubt on the sidelines like Beavis and Butthead. 4 minutes ago, ravenous reader said: Treason should be plucked out 'root and stem' -- i.e. by eliminating the parents, the children, and all their descendants. Otherwise, as Arya at the beginning of the episode underscored to the Freys, 'leave one wolf alive, the sheep will never be safe...' Robert Baratheon was right -- I never thought I'd ever say that! -- every last one of the 'dragonspawn' should be wiped out; or one fine day, the child grows up and crosses the narrow sea with a horde of Dothraki screamers, an army of Unsullied, and three grown dragons to take back what was taken from her family, as we saw at the end of the episode with Daenerys Targaryen taking back her family seat of Dragonstone. Applied to Sansa and Jon, the only two choices are to eradicate the Umbers and Karstarks entirely, including the two innocent children who appeared before them; or to grant them clemency. Remove heads, not real estate! Or rue the day... That is definitely a Machiavellian way of thinking. However, neither the Frey case, nor the Targaryen case really compare with the Umber/Karstark case. The Umber and Karstark simply chose the wrong side in the war, they were not the principal belligerents, and the worst thing any of them did was Smalljon Umber handing over Rickon to Ramsay. Even Tywin, or book Tywin at least, was willing to forgive those who fought for Stannis or Renly, if they bent the knee. It was Joffrey who called out for total punishments. Huh, now that I think about it, it's ironic for Sansa to compare Jon with Joffrey, when her attitude towards defeated enemies is closer to Joffrey's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karmarni Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 On 7/19/2017 at 4:21 PM, HungLikeHodor said: Seems like someone who had to beg Joffrey not to shoot her with a crossbow for the crimes of her father would be a little more sympathetic to other people who had no control over the crimes of their families. Yeah, that about sums up that Sansa has learned nothing and the show is incredibly inconsistent at this point on characterization. Example: then she goes on to say she learned from Cersei. What has Cersei actually done in their time together except force her to write a letter to Robb outing herself as a traitor to her family, say love your children and there is power between a woman's legs? Cersei didn't help out with Joff or constrain him. Cersei kept Sansa as a prisoner and then watched as she was forced to marry Tyrion. Bet Cersei got a good laugh at that one. Cersei happily watched when Sansa was replaced by Margaery as queen-to-be. Cersei obviously enjoyed messing with Sansa'a expectations. So what, did Sansa learn about Cersei and her blow my enemies sky high scheme? She's respectful of that? Does she think Cersei would give away Houses to Johnny come lately loyalists at the expense of centuries old ties? Doubtful the show has that much depth and it wasn't conveyed at all. No, it was left open-ended. What's that mean on this show? It means that it's a blank to be filled in later. Cersei <---> Sansa. Not a parallel, but a conflict. What's Cersei think of Sansa? We found out, she calls her a whore. She thinks she killed Joff. She wants her dead. She told that to Littlefinger. What's LF know about? That letter she wrote to Robb. What's LF's method? Chaos, conflict, reap the benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Null Infinity Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 @Risto HBO released official images from “Stormborn”, one of them may indicate we are getting a radical change in Sansa's story and killed the theory of the beef between Sansa and Jon. Spoiler https://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/blogs.dir/385/files/2017/07/Helen-Sloan-HBO-Photo-4-1.jpg Jon is leaving Winterfell, looks like the two story arcs are going separate ways Any thoughts about the future of Sansa's story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Mini Dragons Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 I think Sansa and Jon's differing opinions fit very much with the characters. Sansa was jolted out of a very protected and privileged childhood by watching her father be executed in front of her and then held hostage by his murderers where she was abused and forced to marry one of them (even if he was the nice one) and then her rescuer betrayed her by sending her into another abusive situation. Sansa's focus, right now that we've seen, is on making herself safe and then her home and family next. So it makes sense to me that she'd want to award those she's most likely to trust. I do think she shouldn't have made her comments publicly, but her comments are valid. I think Jon is a peacemaker at heart. He found understand and made peace with the brothers of the Night's Watch (aside from a few) when he first started out haughty and arrogant and then he helped and protected Sam. He then did the same with the Free Folk. So it makes sense that he would take the same approach with the Northen houses. I think Jon and Sansa can help balance each other out in their pursuit of protecting their home and the North and I hope that is where this story is headed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Noble Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Her scene with Littlefinger bothered me.Between him and Cersei you'd think she'd learn to play the game a little better, but instead of using her feminine ways to beguile him or whatever, she insults him. Does he deserve to insulted? Absolutely, but all that's going to do is turn him off of you and you could tell from his expression that he just wasn't amused or enthralled by her during that scene. I wanted to see her using her sexuality to completely take advantage of him. Make a sucker out of him. She didn't need to dishonour herself by actually consummating anything, but she could have done something to ensnare or ensure his obsession with her a little longer. I didn't particularly like her in this episode - apart from the scene in which she tells Jon he was a good King she has no charm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Noble Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 27 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said: @Risto HBO released official images from “Stormborn”, one of them may indicate we are getting a radical change in Sansa's story and killed the theory of the beef between Sansa and Jon. Hide contents https://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/blogs.dir/385/files/2017/07/Helen-Sloan-HBO-Photo-4-1.jpg Jon is leaving Winterfell, looks like the two story arcs are going separate ways Any thoughts about the future of Sansa's story? I did read the leaked script about this. Not sure if I can post it here because who knows if it's actually valid, but I can tell you what the script said about why he's leaving in a PM if you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Null Infinity Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 23 minutes ago, Lady Noble said: I did read the leaked script about this. Not sure if I can post it here because who knows if it's actually valid, but I can tell you what the script said about why he's leaving in a PM if you want? Please no, thanks, I avoided leaks like the plague for 3 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Noble Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 25 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said: Please no, thanks, I avoided leaks like the plague for 3 years So glad I asked, :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Okay, this thread is long... and to my own admission I have only read about 1/3 of it but here are my thoughts. My apologies in advance as I am sure they have all already been put forward... First of all, I hate to see Jon and Sansa at odds because I think they both mean well for the North and, to my mind, they both had strong points. In fact, were I Queen in the North, I may have been debating (internally) both those options (in the context of the world and culture). I love both characters so I don't think I am going to be particularly bias here. Granted, in "public" wasn't good. The first rule in real politics today is "never divide your party or make it look divided in front of the media"... sure but, as someone pointed out earlier on (Friday night and thread to long for me to quote everyone) Jon doesn't appear to have a Small Council. He needs one fast!. However, yes, she could have been more discreet! I guess when the topic came out, she felt too strong about it and blurted out (and thought about the audience later in terms of political strategy - staying united despite whatever-). She is much more clued up that she was but by no means infallible. None of them are! (not even Tyrion or LF or Varys)...and they are leagues ahead... Also we are dealing with essentially 3 teenagers (Sansa, Jon and Dany) who okay, could be that Jon and Dany are more altruistic in essence, but they lack government experience! (or they did more so when they started but still a bit now...) Catch 22 because you can gain that without actually doing some ruling (or trying to) and making mistakes! If George and D&D have made them "fool proof" I would simply not buy it. Now, Sansa knows Cersei. I don't honestly think she wants to be like her or admires her at all. She knows she is dangerous and at times unpredictable... that is what she knows. She also knows she could not stop Joffrey from taking her own's father's head (although even Cersei saw that as a bad move politically - I think Cersei would have gone for discreet poison lol), but that fact makes Cersei even more erratic = unpredictable! Of course Jon knows that "Nothing Else Matters!" but for the WWs. He is correct but, despite Nana's tales, the only main character apart from those involved in the Northern plot that could believe that is Tyrion (he felt something very strange, if I recall correctly and Cersei teased him about it). Cersei is vulnerable here too on that count...and so is probably everyone else who wasn't with Jon! lol As for Sansa's secretive nature and "supposed betrayal" lol, even if Jon doesn't know the whole extend of LF's doings, his pride and commitment to a good clean cause is such that he would not had him on board, period! (probably not even to save Rickon as price too high, but possibly yes, if saving Rickon was remotely possible). My view is that she thought this (rightly or wrongly) and chose to "use" LF (perhaps more fool her but we shall see...) to save the day. If she had told Jon, Jon would have dismissed the plan!!! and "in her mind" she knew it. Overall, I don't think either Jon or Sansa are bad per se, or stupid for that matter (each drawing from their own experiences). They do have a little ego competition going, mainly her, who expected to be the Lady of WF by birth-right but I think they still care about each other. They remind me a lot of myself and my best friend (Tony). We argue endlessly about the best way to do something and "the other" is "always wrong" lol. We both want the best outcome but we are both forceful in our arguments lol It is all I see here, yes some conflict, maybe for extra drama, maybe for realism... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 3 hours ago, Lady Noble said: Her scene with Littlefinger bothered me.Between him and Cersei you'd think she'd learn to play the game a little better, but instead of using her feminine ways to beguile him or whatever, she insults him. Does he deserve to insulted? Absolutely, but all that's going to do is turn him off of you and you could tell from his expression that he just wasn't amused or enthralled by her during that scene. I wanted to see her using her sexuality to completely take advantage of him. Make a sucker out of him. She didn't need to dishonour herself by actually consummating anything, but she could have done something to ensnare or ensure his obsession with her a little longer. I didn't particularly like her in this episode - apart from the scene in which she tells Jon he was a good King she has no charm. He is a brothel keeper (aware of such techniques) and a major political player. Could be that she is not comfortable with strong teasing because of her upbringing, or even she could lack belief in her sexual power to manipulate, but if I were to start doing that at her age, let's put it bluntly, would not start with him!!! Better to play the "silly, little thing, although too late for that now that she is questioning Jon openly... but still" LF must think of her as the "stupid, little flower who looks like Cat" for her to have a chance, IMHO... (still on the subject of teasing... not consummation) Personally, I think... but hey maybe she doesn't know who Tyrion serves yet! but her best bet for that kind of behavior would be Ty! He is vulnerable to even "pretend love" and he has dragons by proxy lol... (and they are already married and something has to happen; either they annul or continue in some fashion...) Also, confrontation can be highly erotic, although I doubt she had that in mind lol! Not talking about S&M (gods forbid lol) but the dynamics. "Treat them mean and keep them keen..." (not something I do in real life lol but hey!). Worked for Cat although she never intended it that way lol As for Cersei, the seductress. well, bad choice in partners (apart from possibly her brother) every time! Lol Lancel, I felt sorry for when Tyrion gave him "marching orders" to inform on her etc. In the books with the Kettleblacks not much better! Maybe she should have tried Varys and spare herself the sex lol or gone for a Sandsnake if she likes it bi or something lol As far as I can see, but could be forgetting stuff, is that all the good sex did for Cersei was Bran out of window and not being found out. Okay, politically speaking. Not going into her sexual pleasure with Jaime here or even the feeling of having an unconditional ally. Still, I can see where you are coming from and very much looking forward to the "show-down" between these two, which I am sure we will get this season (LF/Sansa).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Null Infinity Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 56 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said: It is all I see here, yes some conflict, maybe for extra drama, maybe for realism... Personnaly, I don't mind watching a conflict between Sansa and Jon, conflicts are the core theme of GOT. The conflict between Sansa and Jon is a conflict of governing and picking priorities and that's what happen when one put two characters in the same place in the story, and if it hurts the sentiments of some fans because they don't want watch their fictional character humiliated so be it, GOT will not gonna change the story to suit them as for the "betrayal", this thing is made up by some fans, no one think that Sansa betrayed or will betray Jon, we are not idiots to believe them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said: Personnaly, I don't mind watching a conflict between Sansa and Jon, conflicts are the core theme of GOT. The conflict between Sansa and Jon is a conflict of governing and picking priorities and that's what happen when one put two characters in the same place in the story, and if it hurts the sentiments of some fans because they don't want watch their fictional character humiliated so be it, GOT will not gonna change the story to suit them as for the "betrayal", this thing is made up by some fans, no one think that Sansa betrayed or will betray Jon, we are not idiots to believe them I agree. Gods, this thread is long (as it is very popular) but I have just posted kind of extensively on it right above and I second your comments lol My apologies, hun, you have commented on my post lol we did it simultaneously it seems, sorry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, Future Null Infinity said: Personnaly, I don't mind watching a conflict between Sansa and Jon, conflicts are the core theme of GOT. The conflict between Sansa and Jon is a conflict of governing and picking priorities and that's what happen when one put two characters in the same place in the story, and if it hurts the sentiments of some fans because they don't want watch their fictional character humiliated so be it, GOT will not gonna change the story to suit them as for the "betrayal", this thing is made up by some fans, no one think that Sansa betrayed or will betray Jon, we are not idiots to believe them Totally agreed!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyser1 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 On 7/19/2017 at 6:32 PM, El Guapo said: She never did that. Not in the tv show no. Team Sophie Turner *cough* I mean Sansa is strong on the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakin1013 Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 On 7/19/2017 at 11:14 AM, Elaena Targaryen said: I do not think Sansa should have spoken against Jon so forcefully in court like that. The points are irrelevant, it was just handled poorly. .....Even though we can see her playing with Jon a little bit you can still see more trust coming into their relationship, I think, I hope, idk. It is helpful to remember that Sansa has no reason to trust any man. She has to reach very far back in her life to find men who were kind and honorable. I would imagine Sansa has PTSD, probably raging nightmares, and a deep-seated need for punishment and revenge, thus the castle discussion. When Sansa reaches back though, Jon is one of the decent and kind men and boys she knew. I think we need to give her time. NOTE: We cannot trust the writing so I simply consider the character of a well-born young girl who has been married off to a very cruel boy, then attacked by an aunt, then manipulated by a skeevy creepy uncle!, and finally married to a psychopath who raped her regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Noble Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 5 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said: He is a brothel keeper (aware of such techniques) and a major political player. Could be that she is not comfortable with strong teasing because of her upbringing, or even she could lack belief in her sexual power to manipulate, but if I were to start doing that at her age, let's put it bluntly, would not start with him!!! Better to play the "silly, little thing, although too late for that now that she is questioning Jon openly... but still" LF must think of her as the "stupid, little flower who looks like Cat" for her to have a chance, IMHO... (still on the subject of teasing... not consummation) So true. He's more aware than most men concerning womanly ways, but I don't think that makes him immune to them. I think he would have been flattered if she tried to play the seductress. Even if he saw right through it he would have thought he had her and that could have been Sansa's angle: Making him think he has her when really he doesn't. She could have got all naked and then slit his throat the way Osha tried to do to Ramsay. There's so much power in passion and sex. GOT is built on those relationships. I think Sansa should have Or, like you said, she should have played the "silly" little girl. Basically, she needed to play SOMETHING other than how she did it. Basically, I don't like this... inconsistent character she's turning into. I adored her when she was just a silly little girl despite making atrocious decisions because they were consistent and so "Sansa" like. Now? She's just so... Wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Future Null Infinity Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, Lady Noble said: I think Sansa should have Or, like you said, she should have played the "silly" little girl Sansa Stark is a fictional character in a story in a show, one can't apply "should" on a fiction, she is not real nor the other characters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.