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Bastardy in Game of Thrones


Cedwyn

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Hey all,

First time posting.  I have read a few of the threads here as well as the wiki's.  Really neat to get some background info on some of the elements of the books / show.

A reoccurring theme I have noticed is the role of bastardy in GoT.  There are quite a few characters who are bastards and this got me wondering if there is any correlation between the storyline/lore and the multiple bastards seen in the series, and if GRRM has a reason for the number of bastard characters.  Here are a few of the bastards seen in the story:

  • Jon Snow (although some believe that he is not a true bastard and this was used to cover up his true mother/father)
  • Ramsay Snow
  • Brynden Rivers (of Aegon IV Targaryen), others from same bloodline
  • A bunch of characters from Dorne (ie. Sand Snakes)
  • Several night's watch including lord commanders (ie. Brynden Rivers, as well as others)
  • Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen (according to wiki / 'rule of bastardy')
  • Craster

These characters have pseudo bastard storylines:

  • Sansa Stark poses as a bastard daughter in the vale
  • Tyrion Lannister poses as a bastard son in Essos

Further reading: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bastardy

Given the number of references to bastards, and a few who are main/aux characters (Ramsay, Sand Snakes, Jon Snow, Lannister kids), I was wondering if there is deeper meaning and/or if they might relate to the overall story some how (ie. perhaps bastard characters are related to Targaryen or Baratheon some how and are hidden/covered up).

Another interesting theory on bastardy: I have been reading some fan theories and one is that Tyrion Lannister is actually a bastard as well and rather than admit it, Tywin covered it up.  The reasoning is that Tyrion is the only Lannister that is a dwarf and Tywin never considered him his son (and Tywin would think having a bastard son would make the Lannisters look weak).  (A parallel / opposite of the Ned Stark story which shows Jon Snow was a bastard but Ned cared for him as a son)

Thanks for any replies!

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Their laws dictate how lands and titles are passed from father to children.  So you bet a person's status is important because it is what determines their path in life.  Rights are carried from generation to generation through the blood.  A mother would advocate for her own children and it is they who disparage their husband's bastards.  Preventing rights to bastards protects the children of the marriage and ensures that the lands remain intact. 

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On 7/16/2017 at 4:52 PM, Cedwyn said:

s that Tyrion Lannister is actually a bastard as well and rather than admit it, Tywin covered it up.  The reasoning is that Tyrion is the only Lannister that is a dwarf and Tywin never considered him his son (and Tywin would think having a bastard son would make the Lannisters look weak).  (A parallel / opposite of the Ned Stark story which shows Jon Snow was a bastard but Ned cared for him as a son)

Thanks for any replies!

Tyrion isn't a bastard.  That's the whole point of his story.  He's a trueborn Lannister, but his family hates him for his deformity.  Otherwise Tywin would have killed him in a heartbeat.  It wastes dozens of pages of characterization if he's secretly a bastard.

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26 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Tyrion isn't a bastard.  That's the whole point of his story.  He's a trueborn Lannister, but his family hates him for his deformity.  Otherwise Tywin would have killed him in a heartbeat.  It wastes dozens of pages of characterization if he's secretly a bastard.

Tyrion is probably a Targaryen bastard, though.

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11 minutes ago, Ser Greg of House House said:

Tyrion is probably a Targaryen bastard, though.

It's highly unlikely.  I get the theory, but I don't think there is much to support the Aerys & Joanna child theory aside from the idea that all three dragonriders must be Targaryens.  It sort of defeats all the tropes GRRM is trying to deconstruct, and undermines the themes he's layered into the story.

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6 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

It's highly unlikely.  I get the theory, but I don't think there is much to support the Aerys & Joanna child theory aside from the idea that all three dragonriders must be Targaryens.  It sort of defeats all the tropes GRRM is trying to deconstruct, and undermines the themes he's layered into the story.

Ok then, if you know the theory that's all there is to it. We'll know the truth (not) soon enough. I've believed the theory for years, way before more recent and clearer clues came out, so after that it's practically cannon for me hehe.

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I think bastardy in the series is just a the fleshing out of an interesting social class that no longer exists in modern society.

Bastardy has many fascinating layers to it, and their status and quality of life can greatly vary from house to house and region to region. As far as their relationships to their parent and families: some bastards are able to freely mingle among their trueborn half-siblings (e.g., Bastard Walder; Jon Snow), others are acknowledged but kept afar (e.g., Edric Storm), some are treated as servants (e.g., Falia Flowers), and some aren't acknowledged at all (e.g., Mya Stone; Gendry). Mya Stone is especially interesting because Nestor Royce's branch of House Royce consider her an important part of their household, going as far as trying to find a proper husband match for her.

Dipping into the Dance of the Dragons, we see from Rhaenyra Targaryen's faction (the Blacks) that bastards (or, "dragonseeds") can inherit the dragon-riding gene.

However, I think the biggest message (for me, at least) is the unfair prejudice placed on bastards.

  • Bastards are said to be born from "lust, lies, and weakness," thus they embody these very qualities. Instead of focusing on those truly guilty of lust, lies, and weakness (i.e., the bastard's parents), the structure of the society essentially shifts all the blame onto the bastard. People treat them with scorn and contempt, but they have done nothing wrong. Interestingly, Stannis Baratheon has a more progressive, rational approach to bastards and their "guilt":

“The boy defiled your marriage bed, else you would surely have sons of your own. He shamed you.”

“Robert did that. Not the boy. My daughter has grown fond of him. And he is mine own blood.” (ASoS p. 501)

  • Bastards are wanton and treacherous, is probably my favorite injustice inflicted on bastards. This is essentially pointing out that bastards, given the opportunity, will stab you in the back. That they are prone to overreach, to try and usurp their trueborn counterparts. This assertion borderlines absurdity because they completely fail to acknowledge the (often poor) treatment and stigma bastards receive from the moment they are born. If you are (1) constantly reminded of the inferiority of your birth, (2) have your skills and accomplishments ignored in favor of those with better birth (despite their own lack of skills and accomplishments), and (3) are at the mercy of trueborn nobility your entire life.... why in the hell wouldn't you stab these people in the back for your own advantage at the first opportunity? They do it to each other readily enough, but the idea that this characteristic of bastards in general is just an example of confirmation bias. They will overlook 95% of the times a bastard demonstrates loyalty and humility and remember the 5% of the time they do something selfish and say "aha! never trust a bastard!"
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I think one reason that bastards are stigmatized so much is that they are a threat to the status quo of the feudal system, the stability of which is built upon the strict adherence of rules. Bastards gaining power means some rules have to be broken down, thus the characterization of bastards as being all sorts of devious and evil. They represent social chaos. The conflict between the true-born and the bastards is only a step on the way to the larger conflict: traditional thought vs bastard thought.

Through Jon’s arc in ADWD, we start to see the conflict between traditional feudal thinking in Westeros. Traditional thought is represented by Bowen Marsh who makes his value judgements based on whether they conform to rules and traditions. On the other hand, we see Jon who is a bastard and has a bastard view of the world: he’s pragmatic rather than rule/tradition-based. I suspect that there will be a broadening of the conflict between traditional rule-based thought and “bastard thought” as the story progresses. Westeros will need to change to adapt to the coming conflicts, and those tied to rules and traditions will have a big problem with that.

“Bastard thought” applies to the true-born as well. Dany was raised outside of society and she has little respect for rules or convention. Tyrion certainly has “bastard thought” whether he is a bastard or not. Jaime was disinherited by Tywin in effect becoming a sort of bastard and he most certainly has a disregard for rules and tradition: he just more or less left the KG when he burned Cersei’s letter and went with Brienne instead. Stannis always viewed himself as a bastard and has no problem raising a flea-bottom boy as his Hand and raising the bastard Jon Snow as Lord of Winterfell. We see a lot of “bastard thought” in Stannis which is in conflict to the structure of the society he grew up in. LF most certain identifies himself as a type of bastard. The Lannisters began breaking down Westeros’ structure at the top level in various ways: Tywin hated the Tytos-brand of Lannister, so he modeled his brand of Lannister after the Targaryens only to be told by Aerys more of less that he’d never be good enough to be true Targaryen by declining, and declining rudely, a marriage between Rhaegar and Cersei. The Lannister arrogance was overcompensation for insecurity. Whether the Lannister kids are literally Targ bastards or not, they’re definitely symbolic Targ bastards.

All of the Stark kids at this point are in the “bastard thought” category: Jon was raised as a bastard, demonized by the society he grew up in, Arya always viewed herself as a bastard. Bran and Rickon were deprived of the structure of Ned’s teaching. Rickon was wild  and felt abandoned. Bran constantly defied rules when he insisted on climbing while absolutely hating the yoke of ruling in Robb’s stead. Now he is crippled and unable to have children which automatically puts him outside the parameters of the feudal system. Sansa has found a measure of happiness and freedom in living as a bastard.

Most of the big POVs are bastards or see themselves as outside the system in some way. The story is about change, and it will be those who are bastards or see themselves as bastards of their society who will be the ones who will most easily toss the rules of society and be the “movers and shakers’.  I actually think this is a component of LF’s plans: collecting high-born bastards or “bastardizing” the true-born and placing them in power of the major houses. They will enact change which in turn will bring down the feudal system which LF so hates.

 

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However, the "loyal bastard" is also a trope as represented for example by Bloodraven in tWoIaF.  That is, those who are rejected and despised by society (such as Tyrion) may feel justified in trying to break down the existing order but in fact the alternative is not a new and better order but chaos (as represented by Littlefinger).  Varys can also be taken as an example of the loyal bastard trope.

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