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[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Repercussion


teemo

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Was anyone else secretly hoping that Stannis was going to pop out of a hiding place and tackle Daenerys and Tyrion while they strolled through Dragonstone with a hand full of guards?

Jorah trying to infect Sam with his greyscale arm was bizarre. "Oh here comes the guy who empties my chamber pot, let me scare the wits out of him then he'll tell me where my beloved Queen is for certain."

Gendry may have all that upper body strength from rowing but Meera has crossfit strength from pulling Bran's lanky body on a sled all across the lands beyond the Wall. I bet Bran will be taller then Jon Snow even while sitting in a chair.

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5 minutes ago, KINGpanther said:

True dat. I also wanted a decision on the Dreadfort and Bolton lands but no.

Good point, Jon, if he were "good at ruling", should have made a comprise by giving the Bolton lands to Stark loyalists and let the Karstarks and Umbers keep their land. But I think D&D's short attention span already forgot about the Boltons and the Dreadfort.

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1 minute ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Good point, Jon, if he were "good at ruling", should have made a comprise by giving the Bolton lands to Stark loyalists and let the Karstarks and Umbers keep their land. But I think D&D's short attention span already forgot about the Boltons and the Dreadfort.

I think they are only interested in details if it forces some hamfisted drama. They can add ridiculous manufactured tension with Last Hearth and Karhold, but ignore the Dreadfort as that compromise might make the characters seem competent and/or united.

And why was the Arbor Gold red, guys? Why?

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22 minutes ago, Eurybia said:

It bothered me to no end that Sansa kept calling Ramsay "Ramsay" in the big meeting. It seemed weirdly personal, which I think was unintentional.

To be fair, that's really the only thing she can call him. Calling him "Ramsay Snow" might be seen derogatory towards Jon, who's also a Snow. Calling him Ramsay Bolton means acknowledging his legitimisation by a Lannister bastard/Cersei/Tywin (then again marrying Ramsay meant acknowledging and even reinforcing that legitimisation...).

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1 hour ago, Ice Walker said:

3. Yes. It should have been in private. I was just reminded by someone how Dany shut down both Jorah and Barristan at Astapor. Now, I also remember the threat Robb gave Greatjon or the stare Robb gave Cat prior to releasing a Lannister scout. You don't undermine a decision of a King or a Lord in front of strangers/vassals.

In both situations, Dany and Robb were in presence of the enemy. Jon and Sansa weren't. The interactions in Northern court seem to be rather different. People are throwing their opinions as they please. Glover did it, Lord Royce has done that too. It was normal for Sansa to do the same. I personally didn't like her point here, but there are truth about punishing and rewarding. She does have a point, not to mention that it is the standard practice in these situations.

I don't see this as undermining as Sansa herself hasn't done anything and when he made his decision, she, just like the rest of them, obeyed to it. She said nothing a lot of Northern lords haven't been thinking. 

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I just for the life of me can't wrap my head around the Sam and dragonglass thing. Like he went to the citadel to learn how to clean old guy's shit and stuff he already knew? Dragonstone being an island, with a mound of Dragonstone is considered forbidden knowledge? Oh and Sam, didn't think it was serious or important when Stannis told him this in S5? Even though he came to NW's aid when he didn't have to huh?
Do the showrunners hate Stannis that much that they have to retcon/downplay anything positive he said or did??

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3 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

I liked the Hound scenes, too. Lots of people are saying that, I think because it was a bit humorous. One thing that would help is if the show wasn't so deadly serious all the time. It's not realistic.

Like the Brienne and Pod scene, instead of her being a brute as usual, they could have had them talking about little things, like real people do. It's hard to believe people like this exist.

No, small talk is for small writers. Just like themes are for eight graders. D&D are so SERIOUS! They just never heard of subtlety or logic, but SERIOUS they are.

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1 minute ago, The Bear Who Knocks said:

<>
Do the showrunners hate Stannis that much that they have to retcon/downplay anything positive he said or did??

Probably. Or just a thread they forgot for a few seasons and then picked up again.

Will Arya double-back to pick up Uncle Edmure at some point? 

But Slughorn and the Restricted Section did make me laugh.  Were they going for that? Probably.  About as subtle as the Ed Sheeran show with Arya.  All so cringe-worthy.

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1 minute ago, lidsa said:

To be fair, that's really the only thing she can call him. Calling him "Ramsay Snow" might be seen derogatory towards Jon, who's also a Snow. Calling him Ramsay Bolton means acknowledging his legitimisation by a Lannister bastard/Cersei/Tywin (then again marrying Ramsay meant acknowledging and even reinforcing that legitimisation...).

I thought about that too! It is a tricky situation. I wish that the writers had used that as a moment of genuine political tension. Because how do you navigate that? There are so many traps you could fall into.

She could also have said something about fighting for the Dreadfort traitors? I dunno. I bet book!Sansa would be great at this sort of courtly navigation....

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20 minutes ago, Eurybia said:

I think they are only interested in details if it forces some hamfisted drama. They can add ridiculous manufactured tension with Last Hearth and Karhold, but ignore the Dreadfort as that compromise might make the characters seem competent and/or united.

And why was the Arbor Gold red, guys? Why?

Probably another little fuck you to book readers. I know it sounds dumb and paranoid but I'm pretty sure Dumb & Dumber hate book readers.

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18 minutes ago, Risto said:

In both situations, Dany and Robb were in presence of the enemy. Jon and Sansa weren't. The interactions in Northern court seem to be rather different. People are throwing their opinions as they please. Glover did it, Lord Royce has done that too. It was normal for Sansa to do the same. I personally didn't like her point here, but there are truth about punishing and rewarding. She does have a point, not to mention that it is the standard practice in these situations.

I don't see this as undermining as Sansa herself hasn't done anything and when he made his decision, she, just like the rest of them, obeyed to it. She said nothing a lot of Northern lords haven't been thinking. 

There was no enemy when Robb threatened Greatjon at Winterfell. Anyway, it's not just about enemy. It's also about vassal lords.

As I recall, Glover questioned him(wasn't even a proper question) before being put in his place by Lyanna(which didn't make much sense). Lord Royce gave his opinion before Jon gave any statement. Sansa kept "arguing" when the King was trying to announce his decision. Watch the scene one more time. That's clear undermining.

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A few notes I took while watching (I'm going to try to skip the obvious stuff everyone else mentioned):

- The wine fake Walder calls "the finest Arbor gold" is actually red. I guess Arya doesn't know anything about wines, she served them whatever swill was left in the cellars, but she called it "Arbor gold" because that is the coolest-sounding wine in Westeros.

- Saying you're "not going to waste wine on a woman" after you already allowed her cup to be filled.

- Is one of the serving girls the same face Arya used to kill Walder? Is she controlling them remotely? That would explain how she baked those pies, at least.

- Li'l Lady Mormont doesn't plan to sit idle while men do her fighting for her. So where was she at the Battle of the Bastards? Sneaking into Winterfell with 20 good li'l girls to plant that bear shield for Jon?

- "The castles committed no crimes". Wiser words have never been spoken. This line is obviously referencing Stanley Kubrick's interpretation of Steven King's "The Shining", and D&D put it there to affirm the idea that they should be free to creatively reinterpret elements of the book to the point of being in exact opposition to what the author intended. You lot just don't get it.

- Training women and children for battle had only just been suggested and was a somewhat controversial idea, but Ned Umber and Alys Karstark, children of traitors of yet uncertain loyalties, are already armed with swords, a detail made even more puzzling by the fact that Alys is actually wearing a dress. They also don't have a single word to say in their defense while their future is being decided. 

- Cersei asks Jon to bend the knee but doesn't ask him to send over Sansa, who she blames for murdering Joffrey.

- The Lannisters had been waiting their whole lives to have a map painted. On the ground to be trod upon and in a court yard, exposed to the elements.

- All those Greyjoy sails look absolutely identical and they're exquisitely detailed. Do you think they are industrially produced?

- Sam's montage... Cleaning shit pails... handling books... serving food... cleaning shit pails... handling books... serving food... What, would it have been too boring to show him wash his hands once? Or was that simply not a part of his daily routine?

- Old dead guy cock.

- Sam is not nearly desperate enough given his mission and the fact that nobody believes him the White Walkers exist.

- Sansa is mean as hell to Littlefinger just before claiming that she needs him. I don't think he should be that crucial for the Vale support given the current circumstances, but if you need him and you aren't stupid don't take him for granted. What, are we to believe Littlefinger has so little self respect that he's just going to allow her to treat him like this?

- I actually kind of liked the scene with Arya and the Lannister men. It had a point and didn't seem stupid... well, until she said she wanted to murder the Queen, but I suppose I can get over that. She better not kill them after she shared their meat and mead though...

- The abrupt change from Beric the outlaw fighting in the name of the old King to Beric the fighter against the Wight Walkers doesn't seem to be supported by anything, but that's a last season issue I guess. More importantly:

- Why didn't Sandor and the bloody R'hllor worshipers bloody burn the bodies? Are they that certain they'll stop the White Walkers in the north? Or is Sandor patiently planting that little girl in the grown so he can cut her to pieces once she ripens and pops out again?

- That map of Dragonstone would have been more complex if it was in a children's coloring book. There was nothing there except the contour of the island, the castle that would be obvious anyway and a stylized drawing of the rocks Sam needed to find. And somehow they managed to get the history wrong in this scene too, the Targeryans built the castle on Dragonstone before they decided to invade Westeros...

- That Baratheon banner fell to a light tug like there was nothing holding it up, and I couldn't really tell if that was dust on the table or just the texture of the stone/wood. I'm going to go ahead and assume there was no dust because this is a rant thread.

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5 minutes ago, Ser Edmure Tully said:

Probably another little fuck you to book readers. I know it sounds dumb and paranoid but I'm pretty sure Dumb & Dumber hate book readers.

I sometimes wonder if they resent the series. I feel like they really only wanted to get to the Red Wedding, to be the ones to pull that shock on TV, and now they have been landed with a very complex, detailed narrative that they can't be bothered to work through. That's just speculation, of course. But it really doesn't feel like it has been made by people who really love and respect the books. 

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2 minutes ago, AlpenglowMemories said:

I sometimes wonder if they resent the series. I feel like they really only wanted to get to the Red Wedding, to be the ones to pull that shock on TV, and now they have been landed with a very complex, detailed narrative that they can't be bothered to work through. That's just speculation, of course. But it really doesn't feel like it has been made by people who really love and respect the books. 

I think so as well. I was completely okay till S4. The past two seasons have been pretty annoying.

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Do you think an extended cut of this episode would be an additional five minutes of Sam Tarly collecting shit. An hour long episode, mostly because scenes and not been optimised. Well at least they got Ed 'Shireen's cameo out the way.  I think my disappointment in the episode has more to do with over hype than quality. That and now having to wait a week for the next episode. (I would much prefer to binge watch this season - but alas there would be no avoiding spoilers.)

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My biggest disappointment is Sam discovering what he already knew, with no explanation other than "Oh yeah, I've been told before, but..." Dear D&D, mentioning that it is a plot contrivance does not make it less of a plot contrivance. No cigar.


I don't think Arya murdering the Frey men for revenge should be a fist-pumping moment, but I do believe D&D were going for that. And according to that freefolk poster who watched the first episode in advance, it worked for him...


 >> How did she logistically get poison into every single drop of wine at the feast, yet manage to avoid any collateral damage whatsoever in the form of wives, servants or cooks swilling some of it out the back?  
Yes, I was wondering, too...


A horsewoman can approach the Lannister soldiers without anyone noticing, getting so close she could easily have killed one or two before they even grabbed their swords? Okay.


"Are you old enough to drink?" Dude, in the Miiddle Ages they gave gin to babies to keep them quiet. Everyone drank alcohol because the water was often contaminated. No-one would ask a teenage person that.


Dragonstone: Dany & Co. in the boat, must be some very silent seas where nobody moves even the slightest bit... not the slightest shaking of the little boat that has to be balanced... Might be nitpicking, but stuff like that always takes me out of a scene.


And the castle being deserted, not even a dog or lifestock left behind, no mess after a hasty retreat?! Or if it had been deserted for years, it would still not look that clean.


>>At least Emilia's one facial expression and monotone voice was appropriate for her scene tonight. God help her if she has to look surprised, angry or aroused this season though.
LOL. So true.


About women joing the fight... I seem to vaguely remember it occasionally happened, but maybe I'm wrong. And I'm willing to cut Jon some slack as he has seen Wildling women fight alongside their men, so he might really have that idea. But it would have been more realistic if he just asked any girl/ woman who was willing and capable to arms, not everyone between ages 10 and 60...

I'll take Lyanna over Olly anytime, but yeah, they're overdoing it. Very much.

Sansa: You're super at ruling, Jon. Oh, you're totally dumb, btw. Huh?
Sansa: Listen to my valuable advice!


Like last season when you complained they didn't listen to you, then they asked for your advice and you had none to give? Whatev.
(The funny thing is that I actually don't disagree with her on the traitor kids, I think that within this system there should be some kind of symbolical punishment or probation. The whole point is that everyone thinks dynastically.)

Oh well, i could go on and on, but what's the point, really...

 

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11 minutes ago, Ice Walker said:

There was no enemy when Robb threatened Greatjon at Winterfell. Anyway, it's not just about enemy. It's also about vassal lords.

As I recall, Glover questioned him(wasn't even a proper question) before being put in his place by Lyanna(which didn't make much sense). Lord Royce gave his opinion before Jon gave any statement. Sansa kept "arguing" when the King was trying to announce his decision. Watch the scene one more time. That's clear undermining.

Was Ned undermining Robert when he opposed his opinions? Was he treasonous? Sansa expressed her opinion, she argued for it and when Jon made a final decision, she respected it. It wasn't undermining, it was a discussion. A debate. Exchange of opinions. Simple as that. At the end of the day, Sansa respected Jon's decision and even complimented him afterwards. As much as producers and actors wanted us to think there will be some great Stark clash, it won't happen.

As for Robb and Umber. Robb threatend Greatjon because Greatjon was threatening to leave and even pulled a knife. That is truly a different situation. 

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Just now, Risto said:

Was Ned undermining Robert when he opposed his opinions? Was he treasonous?

Yes, he was. Didn't Robert ask him to get out and call him a "traitor"? Ned may be his best friend and "may" be right in his opinion but that was undermining. Would Jon Arryn have done that? I doubt it. At least, not in front of the Small Council.

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