[Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Repercussion

[Ser Edmure Tully]

32 minutes ago, AlpenglowMemories said:

I sometimes wonder if they resent the series. I feel like they really only wanted to get to the Red Wedding, to be the ones to pull that shock on TV, and now they have been landed with a very complex, detailed narrative that they can't be bothered to work through. That's just speculation, of course. But it really doesn't feel like it has been made by people who really love and respect the books. 

Seasons 1-3 I was fine with, even though I think they didn't do the Red Wedding as well as they could have. Season 4 was up and down, but for like two or three scenes Pedro Pascal was electric and they still had the solid bedrock of Charles Dance to anchor proceedings in Kings Landing, along with the Jon-Ygritte dynamic up north (I still really think action scenes and Rose Leslie brought out the best in Kit).

Season five with the character assassination of Stannis done in the most emotionally manipulative way possible along with the dumbest fucking plot of all time aka Winterhell Wedding and the other fucking dumbest plot of all time aka Dorne, coupled with Cersei's unintended heroism in protecting her child from a sexually manipulative abuser (how do you make Cersei the reasonable one? How?!) plus significant glances and Olly reaction shots at the Wall every thirty seconds killed me. Also bad pusssssaaaayyy.

Then season six, where the only change in Jon after death seems to be a haircut and newfound stupidity. Rickon is killed in the most emotionally manipulative way imaginable. The Sand Idiots somehow convince the entire Dornish palace to murder their Prince and install a bunch of bastards and the rest of that sandy wasteland is okay with it and Deadpan Stormborn trains her dragons without ever actually seeing them. Also Helm's Deep lite. 

These last two seasons have been rough and I think it shows that these idiots are just writing to try and shock their audience as much as possible.

[Mladen]

10 minutes ago, Ice Walker said:

Yes, he was. Didn't Robert ask him to get out and call him a "traitor"? Ned may be his best friend and "may" be right in his opinion but that was undermining. Would Jon Arryn have done that? I doubt it. At least, not in front of the Small Council.

But arguing with someone and undermining someone are two things. Sansa didn't disobey Jon, she didn't even questioned his authority, when the time came, she obeyed just like everyone else. She made Jon think about his decisions, she made him defend his position and strengthen it. She maybe didn't like the outcome but she nonetheless respected it. And afterwards gave him due credit.

Disagreements are normal and questioning other's decisions is healthy in any relationship. This was nothing more than that.

Honestly, I don't even understand what the problem here is. Like Sansa said, Joffrey is the only one who didn't like to be question regarding his decisions. Is that the aim here? One can hope Davos, Sansa, Glover, many of them feel free to give advice to Jon, but also to respect him and his decision. Which ultimately happened here. 

 

[OldGimletEye]

On 7/17/2017 at 1:37 AM, teemo said:

lol, so many people think that characters like Sansa and the Sand Snakes and Talisa are so "empowering" and that if you disagree you're a sexist, but in reality more of the opposite is true and shows how shallow D&D's views of women are.  

Yeah, I found Sandra publicly disagreeing with Jon to have been extremely annoying. D & D probably thought it was “empowering”, I found it to be reckless and undisciplined. Anyone that has worked for somebody else knows, it’s generally not a wise idea to disagree with the boss in public. Expressing concerns privately is one thing, but disagreeing in public, usually is not wise.

Sandra comes off like Fredo trying to defend Moe Greene. Jon should pull a Michael Corleone.

And then there is Sandra saying, “she learned a lot” from Carol. Like what? Arrogance? Incompetence? Smirking? This is the result, I feel of two factors. One is the white washing of Cersei and the other is the butchery of Sansa’s character.

On 7/17/2017 at 1:25 AM, teej6 said:

As someone upthread said after that long tedious and rather disgusting scene of Sam picking and cleaning shit he finally is rewarded by learning about obsidian on Dragonstone, something he already knew. And if the point of Sam cleaning shit and puking over and over again was to show his routine, I'm sure there were 10 different ways to relay that message in far less time and more efficiently. 

Yeah, I found the repetition about the crappy nature of Sam’s duties to have been extremely annoying. I was watching it, thinking, “uh, I think we got it.” Waste of time. With only 13 episodes left they don’t have much time to waste.

On 7/17/2017 at 1:39 AM, Bear Claw said:

What is really off to me is that apparently LF knows that Brienne fought the Hound, but Brienne didn't even tell Sansa that Arya was with the Hound.(She said Arya was with a man) Does this mean that Sansa/Jon knows that Arya was with the Hound??

Yeah, why is BatFinger telling Sandra about the Brienne & Hound fight. Why hasn’t Brienne come clean about her encounter with Arya and Sandor? Good job Brienne. The “Voldemort Keeper of the Secrets” act doesn’t reflect well upon you.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

4 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

 

Yeah, I found the repetition about the crappy nature of Sam’s duties to have been extremely annoying. I was watching it, thinking, “uh, I think we got it.” Waste of time. With only 13 episodes left they don’t have much time to waste.

 

"I know, we'll fill the screen with actual shit for two minutes and these idiots will lap it up!"

"Genius, David, genius!! Give us all the Emmys"

I know I'm cynical.

[Swagwell]

Sam's Shit Show.

No Sheeran stabbing.

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

36 minutes ago, Ser Edmure Tully said:

coupled with Cersei's unintended heroism in protecting her child from a sexually manipulative abuser

Hmm? What is this about? Refresh my memory please.

[Rhodan]

Just now, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

Hmm? What is this about? Refresh my memory please.

That´s reference to show version of his relationship with Margeary.

[OldGimletEye]

On 7/17/2017 at 6:20 AM, Risto said:

But arguing with someone and undermining someone are two things. Sansa didn't disobey Jon, she didn't even questioned his authority, when the time came, she obeyed just like everyone else. She made Jon think about his decisions, she made him defend his position and strengthen it. She maybe didn't like the outcome but she nonetheless respected it. And afterwards gave him due credit.

Disagreements are normal and questioning other's decisions is healthy in any relationship. This was nothing more than that.

Honestly, I don't even understand what the problem here is. Like Sansa said, Joffrey is the only one who didn't like to be question regarding his decisions. Is that the aim here? One can hope Davos, Sansa, Glover, many of them feel free to give advice to Jon, but also to respect him and his decision. Which ultimately happened here. 

 

My problem with Sandra’s disagreement with Jon isn’t so much about the substance of her argument, but with her method.

I’ve certainly disagreed with my bosses of mine. But, I have handled such matters privately and didn’t argue with them in public. I think anyone that has worked for anyone else, knows, that it’s generally not wise to disagree with that person publicly, particularly if you generally like and respect that person.

I don’t think there is anything wrong in telling the boss that he or she is about to do a mark time march on their own crank. But, generally, I think it’s not wise to make a public spectacle of that disagreement, particularly when there is nothing patently ethically objectionable to their decision.

The essential problem here is D & D’s bad writing. They think that such an act is “empowering”. It comes off, however, as undisciplined and reckless. Empowerment doesn’t mean bad judgement. They seem to think that it does.

[Hear Me Roar!!]

1 minute ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

Hmm? What is this about? Refresh my memory please.

I think the gent is referring to Margarey Tyrell, only one that really fits the description

[Red Tiger]

I was quite amused by Sansa saying that somehow, someway Cerseinalways managed to kill whoever she wanted to. Uhm yeah, the reason being the writers, not actual competence on the part of Cersei.

I enjoyed Euron's trolling and the Freys dying (though the execution could definitely be better) but that's it. The episode was overall boring as hell.

[Mladen]

4 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

My problem with Sandra’s disagreement with Jon isn’t so much about the substance of her argument, but with her method.

I’ve certainly disagreed with my bosses of mine. But, I have handled such matters privately and didn’t argue with them in public. I think anyone that has worked for anyone else, knows, that it’s generally not wise to disagree with that person publicly, particularly if you generally like and respect that person.

I don’t think there is anything wrong in telling the boss that he or she is about to do a mark time march on their own crank. But, generally, I think it’s not wise to make a public spectacle of that disagreement, particularly when there is nothing patently ethically objectionable to their decision.

The essential problem here is D & D’s bad writing. They think that such an act is “empowering”. It comes off, however, as undisciplined and reckless. Empowerment doesn’t mean bad judgement. They seem to think that it does.

I would agree that it is not the most fortunate choice. I actually kinda liked their private interaction. But as someone said here, .we are also expected to believe that Ned Umber and Alys Karstark traveled all the way to Wintefell without knowing what it's going to happen to them. So, we are supposed to take some leaps here...

At the end of the day, I just think this was as far as their disagreements would go. She says something, he makes a decision, she respects that. The end  

But, yeah, the writing is clunky, at least. I think that they simply don't understand what the word empowering actually mean. I see what they wanted to do, but it failed in many ways. 

[Ser Edmure Tully]

7 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

Hmm? What is this about? Refresh my memory please.

Marg using sex to try and manipulate a child (actually how old is Tommen meant to be? He still acts like 8 year old book Tommen, which is what trips me out) into doing what she wants, which involves essentially handing over his kingdom to her family.

The fact that she is so transparent and obvious about it to Cersei, and even tries to have her sent to Casterly Rock make Cersei's attempts to protect her child from said abuser kind of understandable really. Couple that with her being forced to do a shame walk for having sex, season five really just seems like Cersei's struggle against the evil patriarchy.

Which is definitely not the story Martin was telling. I'm definitely not saying I liked this narrative, but they definitely unintentionally made Cersei the protagonist and HS the clear antagonist, by removing Cersei's most appalling features and by kinda making the Faith a lot less of focused on the poor and more into smashing wine barrels and beating up gays. 

[Ice Walker]

Quote

Sansa(S): The castles committed no crimes. And we need every fortress we have for the war to come. We should give the Last Hearth and Karhold to new families. Loyal families who supported us against Ramsay.

Stark Loyalists at BotB(SL): Nice. We will be getting new lands and castles. I know loyalty will come in handy. Yay!

Ned Umber & Alys Karstark(NA): Oh dear. My home is going to be taken away from me for no fault of mine. Screw you dad/brother!

Jon(J): The Umbers and the Karstarks have fought beside the Starks for centuries. They have kept faith for generation after generation...

S: And then, they broke faith.

J: I'm not going to strip these families of their ancestral homes.because of the crimes of a few reckless sons.

NA: Oh goodie. I may still have a shot. The King is supporting me. Screw the girl who married a Lannister dwarf & a Bolton bastard.

SL: uh oh.

S: So there is no punishment for treason and no reward for loyalty

(silence)

SL: That's right. We bled for you and your brother. We deserve rewards. The Umbers/Karstarks tried to destroy us all. They don't deserve those castles. Team Sansa all the way!

J: The punishment for treason is death. Smalljon Umber died on the field of battle. Harold Karstark died on the field of battle.

S: They died fighting for Ramsay. Give the castles to those men who died(?) fighting for you.

SL: Sansa! You go, girl!

J: When I was Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, I executed men who betrayed me. I executed men who refused to follow orders. My father always said, "the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword" and I have lived by those words. But I will not punish a son for his father's sins and I will not take a family home away from a family it belonged to for centuries. That is my decision and my decision is final.

NA: That's right. Aerys was called the Mad King for a reason. He asked for your father's head for your uncle's mistake, despite the said uncle's and your grandfather's deaths. I'm glad Jon as the King holds this authority. Better minds prevailed at the end. We will prove our loyalty to the King, now and forever. Also, what a bitch that Sansa is. She married enemies out of convenience to survive, didn't even tell anything about the Vale troops.

SL: What a bastard! I bled for him, made him King, offered my sword in the wars to come and yet he gives me nothing in return. This is what we get for selecting a bastard for a King instead of a trueborn daughter. Does he even deserve our loyalty?

 

And that's how people like Littlefinger take advantage and rebellions happen. These things are better discussed in private with a small group of loyal counselors. Or in this scenario, wait for the King to at least state his opinion before saying it could be wrong.

[Dolorous Gabe]

56 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And then there is Sandra saying, “she learned a lot” from Carol. Like what? Arrogance? Incompetence? Smirking? This is the result, I feel of two factors. One is the white washing of Cersei and the other is the butchery of Sansa’s character.

This and this and this.

I wanted to throw something at the screen when she said that.

The show seems to do everything it can to vindicate Cersei yet insult the memory of Ned.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

3 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

This and this and this.

I wanted to throw something at the screen when she said that.

The show seems to do everything it can to vindicate Cersei yet insult the memory of Ned.

Ned was just an idiot though. Too dumb to live, too dumb to inspire loyalty, told his kids dumb braggy stories about how he killed the best swordsman who ever lived with his wrong hand while whacking his dick with his good one. 

Sometimes I wonder whether these people actually read the books. They clearly do not understand the characters in the slightest.

[Dolorous Gabe]

And Ed Sheeran! GTFO!

A pleasant scene destroyed by his mere presence. It's like the show runners felt they couldn't do such a scene unless they had a major celebrity so that people wouldn't notice that nothing was happening.

[Rhodan]

Now, I also seriously believe that Euron will have Dragonbinder out of the blue, it would be totally consistent with show´s aproach to storytelling.

[Lord Varys]

Well, that was a shitload of shit, wasn't it?

And is it just me or are they more or less done with even trying to write (interesting) dialogue - that whole Samwell shit montage and that long walk into Dragonstone was nothing but a waste of time.

But at least I'm correct that Euron is going to marry Cersei. No idea whether they make that happen in the show but it should happen in the books. Jaime is not there, and not likely to return Cersei to help her in any way. Aegon will take Cersei's role and take the city, and she will have to go - to Euron.

[The Bear Who Knocks]

21 minutes ago, Ser Edmure Tully said:

Ned was just an idiot though. Too dumb to live, too dumb to inspire loyalty, told his kids dumb braggy stories about how he killed the best swordsman who ever lived with his wrong hand while whacking his dick with his good one. 

Sometimes I wonder whether these people actually read the books. They clearly do not understand the characters in the slightest.

HONOUR GETS YOU KILLED /s

Anyone else actually notice that most of the dialogue was exposition that the audience should already be aware and the characters wouldnt generally need to repeat?

[The Knight in Motley]

5 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Also, how hilarious is that one of the soldiers actually asks Arya if she's old enough to drink.  Like drinking age is actually a thing in medieval times. I'm suppose we should be thankful he didn't ask her if she's got a designated driver.

Oh, was that supposed to be Arya? I thought Maisie Williams was just playing herself there.