Apes Together Strong! (Spoilers)

[DMC]

Haven't started a thread in good while.  Can it be no one has started any for one of the best third offerings of any trilogy:  War for the Planet of the Apes?  Looked over the last 3 pages of this forum and couldn't find one - if I missed it I apologize and please delete/direct me accordingly.

Anyway, I was a big fan of the first two, and War far exceeded both.  It was at once a war movie, a western, and a classic prison-break, seamlessly sampling multitudes of genres and influences to depict a personal yet widely scoped story.  And at its heart (pun intended), it is "Ape-pocalypse Now," rendering its own sympathetically ruthless antagonist with Woody Harrelson as simply "The Colonel."  But this is Ceasar's final quest, something he makes clear from the get-go, and his character and story have easily been two of the best things to enjoy at the theater over the past decade.  Plus you have the incredibly touching Maurice-Nova relationship, the perfect comic relief with Steve Zahn's "Bad Ape," and so much more.  I'd go on but..is anyone out there?

[red snow]

It's got a few mentions in the "what are you watching" thread but I think it's totally deserving of its own thread. I thought it was excellent and easily tops similar films I've seen recently eg Baby driver, Spider-man, Wonder Woman and Guardians vol2.

Although it's almost ruined by the ridiculously lousy security the so called crack team of human soldiers are. Apes and children constantly wander around the perimeter of the base and within it and no-one notices unless the intruders want to be seen. Maybe before building a wall, check whether there's an underground subway network? Also how do they not notice the pot holes when doing a full sweep of the area for apes? That kid spent 5 minutes wandering around and no one noticed.

Otherwise it was brilliant. I really enjoyed the serious and darker turn the film took (and how the previous film set it up perfectly).

The animation is amazing in terms of the emotions the apes emit and one wonders if at some point this time of animation will somehow overtake that of real life actors. It's a strange claim but what if it's possible to emote beyond what actual human actors are capable of?

The weird and sad thing about the film was the point I felt really bad about the apes being turned into slaves and the genocidal plan the humans had for them. Then I realised we're doing this already, just indirectly by destroying their habitat. Hopefully these films raise awareness about the plight of apes even if that's not the aim of the films.

[DMC]

16 hours ago, red snow said:

Although it's almost ruined by the ridiculously lousy security the so called crack team of human soldiers are. Apes and children constantly wander around the perimeter of the base and within it and no-one notices unless the intruders want to be seen. Maybe before building a wall, check whether there's an underground subway network? Also how do they not notice the pot holes when doing a full sweep of the area for apes? That kid spent 5 minutes wandering around and no one noticed.

Can't argue with this, but their lax security did lead to the brilliant "escape by repeatedly throwing shit at the guard."  This should be the new wookie prisoner gag, hands down.

[The Anti-Targ]

War for the Planet of the Apes did Jar Jar Binks they way Jar Jar Binks should have been. Except of course that Jar Jar Binks was a secret Sith, and everything he did was deliberate.

It is a great movie and I'm sad that in all likelihood it won't get anywhere near the box office revenue it deserves.

So, am I correct that this Apes trilogy is a prequel to the original Charlton Heston movies and not at all related to the Marc Walberg movie?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

17 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

War for the Planet of the Apes did Jar Jar Binks they way Jar Jar Binks should have been. Except of course that Jar Jar Binks was a secret Sith, and everything he did was deliberate.

It is a great movie and I'm sad that in all likelihood it won't get anywhere near the box office revenue it deserves.

So, am I correct that this Apes trilogy is a prequel to the original Charlton Heston movies and not at all related to the Marc Walberg movie?

Not at all related to the Tim Burton abortion thankfully. Yes, you could use this series as a prequel for the original series. The later films in that series even featured a protagonist ape named Caesar. 

I really enjoyed the first two films in this trilogy and I will be checking this out ASAP. Serkis has been great throughout, and it seems that the writer and director of these films is a fan of the original series, so that's a big plus for me. I think the original Planet of the Apes was the first sci-fi film that truly blew my mind, and made me a fan for life.

[DMC]

10 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Not at all related to the Tim Burton abortion thankfully. Yes, you could use this series as a prequel for the original series. The later films in that series even featured a protagonist ape named Caesar. 

Not just Caesar - there's a mute girl named Nova, just like the mute woman in the original.  And Caesar's second son is named Cornelius, the same name name as Roddy McDowell's nice-doctor ape in the original and father of the Caesar later in that series (also played by McDowell).  I prefer to think of these as homages rather than indicating any true "prequel," although since the trilogy continues to be both critically and commercially successful, I'm sure we'll get more offerings as Fox milks it for all its worth.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

5 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Not just Caesar - there's a mute girl named Nova, just like the mute woman in the original.  And Caesar's second son is named Cornelius, the same name name as Roddy McDowell's nice-doctor ape in the original and father of the Caesar later in that series (also played by McDowell).  I prefer to think of these as homages rather than indicating any true "prequel," although since the trilogy continues to be both critically and commercially successful, I'm sure we'll get more offerings as Fox milks it for all its worth.

Yeah, there was a "Back to the Future" sort of time loop in the original series wherein Zira and Cornelius manage to get back to Taylor's timeline and they have a baby (Caesar) who then leads an enslaved ape class to revolt. I loved those old flicks, despite the fact that they kind of went off the rails with the last couple of movies. Good times.

There have been numerous little Easter Eggs and call backs to the original series in the first two movies. 

[red snow]

I think it's doing its own thing but is trying to make sure it connects the dots. I can't remember but I thought Planet of the Apes was 100s/1000s of years in the future but this version looks like it's going for 20/30 years. Which is cool as they could do a film with Nova and Cornelius. If memory serves "rise" mention some people on a space station/mars mission? Maybe they find a way back that's a decade or two away? I do like how they've found a more beleivable (at least by current standards) way of creating this world and avoided time travel.

Still, it feels like a film with the Apes asserting full control and enslaving humans would be required before doing a film that covers the ground of the original "Heston" apes.

I really liked how the virus had mutated to create the mute/simpler humans from the future. Although I'm not sure they were less intelligent, rather the colonel assumed lack of communication meant stupidity? Nova seemed fine. Did they ever confirm that the virus mutated the apes so that they could speak? Maybe it's just something that's easy to assume. The Apes clearly gained more human characteristics over the course of the trilogy and Serkis himself points out how the stances of Caesar changed over the course of the film so that near the end he was walking upright most of the time.

Thankfully no-one wants to remember the Tim Burton film!

[felice]

19 hours ago, red snow said:

Although it's almost ruined by the ridiculously lousy security the so called crack team of human soldiers are. Apes and children constantly wander around the perimeter of the base and within it and no-one notices unless the intruders want to be seen. Maybe before building a wall, check whether there's an underground subway network?

Nova walking straight in the front door and talking to Caesar without ever being noticed was a bit hard to swallow, yes. Perhaps even the original strain of the virus was impeding their cognitive abilities? Altering brain function is what it was designed for, after all. Not noticing the tunnels didn't disturb me too much; they hadn't been there that long, and the apes only found them by walking over the exact right spot - they weren't visible to any patrol.

17 minutes ago, red snow said:

Still, it feels like a film with the Apes asserting full control and enslaving humans would be required before doing a film that covers the ground of the original "Heston" apes.

I don't know... it seemed pretty clear that the remaining human military in North America were wiped out at the end, and Nova established the apes taking in human mutes; the progression to the Heston era seems pretty straightforward from there.

17 minutes ago, red snow said:

Thankfully no-one wants to remember the Tim Burton film!

I liked it!

[red snow]

2 hours ago, felice said:

Nova walking straight in the front door and talking to Caesar without ever being noticed was a bit hard to swallow, yes. Perhaps even the original strain of the virus was impeding their cognitive abilities? Altering brain function is what it was designed for, after all. Not noticing the tunnels didn't disturb me too much; they hadn't been there that long, and the apes only found them by walking over the exact right spot - they weren't visible to any patrol.

I don't know... it seemed pretty clear that the remaining human military in North America were wiped out at the end, and Nova established the apes taking in human mutes; the progression to the Heston era seems pretty straightforward from there.

I liked it!

That's a great excuse for the lousy security!

The problem with the tunnels is that we saw the apes poking holes in the grounds. I guess if a soldier saw the hole they might not think "ooh a secret tunnel" but they probably would have encountered, or fell, down one.

Yeah, I guess with the stupid virus on the rise and the establishment that apes across the planet were becoming more intelligent (and arguably better at talking too) then I guess they could easily have the next film as "planet of the apes". Maybe there isn't much drama to get out of filling in that gap. Although part of me would like to see the Apes making the decision to enslave humans.

I guess Rocket and Maurice would be the de facto leaders after Caesar?

RE: Burton film. It has its own camp charm and it is amusing to see the prosthetic masks/make-up emote more than Wahlberg. But I'm still pleased the prequels ignored it!

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

7 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, there was a "Back to the Future" sort of time loop in the original series wherein Zira and Cornelius manage to get back to Taylor's timeline and they have a baby (Caesar) who then leads an enslaved ape class to revolt. I loved those old flicks, despite the fact that they kind of went off the rails with the last couple of movies. Good times.

There have been numerous little Easter Eggs and call backs to the original series in the first two movies. 

In the first one, right before Caeser tells Malfoy no there was something on the news about the Icarus being lost. I would love for them to do a fourth one when the ship finds it's way back to Earth. But I would prefer it be similar to the book where the Apes live in a manner comparable to humans rather than a more primitive setting.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

6 hours ago, red snow said:

RE: Burton film. It has its own camp charm and it is amusing to see the prosthetic masks/make-up emote more than Wahlberg. But I'm still pleased the prequels ignored it!

 I guess some would put it in the "It's so bad, it's good" category, but I couldn't help but hate it. Not a big Burton fan at all. So much form over function with that guy.

[DMC]

7 hours ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said:

In the first one, right before Caeser tells Malfoy no there was something on the news about the Icarus being lost. I would love for them to do a fourth one when the ship finds it's way back to Earth. But I would prefer it be similar to the book where the Apes live in a manner comparable to humans rather than a more primitive setting.

That's true, they gave themselves the ability to go virtually any direction with that bit about the Icarus.  I also agree the Apes should be much more "evolved" (technologically) than they are now.  I think maybe the best way to do this is have maybe one movie setting up the new ape society and it'd probably have to be - at least - 15 years in the future showing how the apes have "devolved" morally to enslave humans, as @red snow said.  If it was ~15 years later, you could have the same Nova and Cornelius too.  Dunno what the explanation is for what the Icarus has been doing all that time, but if you've averse to time travel they could come up with some hypersleep story or something.

3 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 I guess some would put it in the "It's so bad, it's good" category, but I couldn't help but hate it. Not a big Burton fan at all. So much form over function with that guy.

Wahlberg, and Estella Warren, were in the so bad it's good category, but I think if it wasn't for that ending the movie would be remembered more as simply pedestrian than horrible.  Honestly, Burton tells a shockingly straight-forward story compared to most of his other work, again, up until that ending.

[red snow]

3 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 I guess some would put it in the "It's so bad, it's good" category, but I couldn't help but hate it. Not a big Burton fan at all. So much form over function with that guy.

I think he's had some good films quite a bit back but the problem is that he has the Tim Burton approach to everything and when paired with "Tim Burton" Johnny Depp it just tends to feel a bit formulaic and sometimes forced.

7 hours ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said:

In the first one, right before Caeser tells Malfoy no there was something on the news about the Icarus being lost. I would love for them to do a fourth one when the ship finds it's way back to Earth. But I would prefer it be similar to the book where the Apes live in a manner comparable to humans rather than a more primitive setting.

I'm not a huge fan of them recreating human society exactly and the current continuity suggests the apes, while supersmart don't see so keen on technology. They had no interest in generators for electricity or even medicine in the new films so from this particular group it would seem that a lot of human technology would die with mankind. That's not to say one of the Apes would take an interest at some point and read a manual or something. Other tribes may well be more interested in technology too.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, red snow said:

I think he's had some good films quite a bit back but the problem is that he has the Tim Burton approach to everything and when paired with "Tim Burton" Johnny Depp it just tends to feel a bit formulaic and sometimes forced.

He's really bad at interpreting others intellectual properties, for my money. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Planet of the Apes were two of my alltime favs as a child, and I think he butchered both. His Batman hasn't stood the test of time either, IMHO. The guy is a fantastic art director, but I think his talent level drops off severely once you get past that.

[red snow]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

He's really bad at interpreting others intellectual properties, for my money. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Planet of the Apes were two of my alltime favs as a child, and I think he butchered both. His Batman hasn't stood the test of time either, IMHO. The guy is a fantastic art director, but I think his talent level drops off severely once you get past that.

It's a long time since I've seen his Batman films but I thought they were great at the time. Returns felt more Burton-like than the original one.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

16 minutes ago, red snow said:

It's a long time since I've seen his Batman films but I thought they were great at the time. Returns felt more Burton-like than the original one.

 On first viewing I enjoyed the first flick, but I suspect that had more to do with being hungry for a Batman movie than anything else.. I never cared for the second. As you say that was basically so over the top Burton that it barely resembled a Batman story. He makes fantastic looking movies, but none of them seem to have much in the way of soul. And it seems to me that he very rarely if ever captures characters in any meaningful way, especially when you're talking about other people's characters. In comparison, I think Nolan absolutely nailed the Joker, and came pretty damn close to capturing Batman. I suppose some of that had to do with the acting as well, but I find that Burton really has no grasp of characters.  

[The Anti-Targ]

16 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Not just Caesar - there's a mute girl named Nova, just like the mute woman in the original.  And Caesar's second son is named Cornelius, the same name name as Roddy McDowell's nice-doctor ape in the original and father of the Caesar later in that series (also played by McDowell).  I prefer to think of these as homages rather than indicating any true "prequel," although since the trilogy continues to be both critically and commercially successful, I'm sure we'll get more offerings as Fox milks it for all its worth.

Hmmm not too sure about that. It's too early to say whether War will be a commercial success. I was disappointed to see that it's US opening weekend was about 50% of that for WW and Spidey, when IMO it's the best movie of the three. It seems Apes fatigue may be setting in.

I'm also not sure it would be a good idea to re-tell the original planet of the Apes story again. The Heston version was great, the Wahlberg version was pretty good. But what's the new version going to bring to us? I think the origin story is the interesting story, the Ape society developing in sophistication is the boring middle bit, and the lost humans returning ignorant of what's gone on has been told.

I think we have a natural end here and I hope Fox realises it and puts this one to bed.

[DMC]

13 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Hmmm not too sure about that. It's too early to say whether War will be a commercial success. I was disappointed to see that it's US opening weekend was about 50% of that for WW and Spidey, when IMO it's the best movie of the three. It seems Apes fatigue may be setting in.

Aye, it's underperforming Dawn - with a budget of $150 million compared to $93 for Dawn.  But I think between the high critical praise giving it legs and international markets, it still should be profitable (i.e. reach about $300 million total).  

15 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I'm also not sure it would be a good idea to re-tell the original planet of the Apes story again. The Heston version was great, the Wahlberg version was pretty good. But what's the new version going to bring to us? I think the origin story is the interesting story, the Ape society developing in sophistication is the boring middle bit, and the lost humans returning ignorant of what's gone on has been told.

I think we have a natural end here and I hope Fox realises it and puts this one to bed.

I agree with the first paragraph.  However, a studio putting a valuable property to bed before it grew stale would be....rather unprecedented.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

20 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I'm also not sure it would be a good idea to re-tell the original planet of the Apes story again. The Heston version was great, the Wahlberg version was pretty good. But what's the new version going to bring to us? I think the origin story is the interesting story, the Ape society developing in sophistication is the boring middle bit, and the lost humans returning ignorant of what's gone on has been told.

I think we have a natural end here and I hope Fox realises it and puts this one to bed.

I haven't seen this one yet, but it seems to me that there should be room for the whole full circle thing. Like now apes are the dominant species and they start to more or less abuse that power, astronauts return from their little FTL time-warping jaunt to find civilization turned on its' head. Astronaut reminds apes how this all started and provides appropriate object lesson.

 And maybe brings back some alien virus that wipes out apes, setting the whole thing back to zero.