Apes Together Strong! (Spoilers)

[red snow]

28 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Hmmm not too sure about that. It's too early to say whether War will be a commercial success. I was disappointed to see that it's US opening weekend was about 50% of that for WW and Spidey, when IMO it's the best movie of the three. It seems Apes fatigue may be setting in.

 

It's out in a very competitive month with Spider-man and Dunkirk either side of it and essentially appealing to aspects of War meaning I can see Superhero fans going for spidey and war fans for dunkirk. Throw in Baby Driver as well and if it wasn't for going on discount days, I'd have dropped something.

The opening weekend was just over what they had projected (no idea whether projections reflect what they need). Hopefully it'll remain on screens for a while as I think positive word of mouth will mean the weekly drop off isn't as pronounced. There's also still China where the previous hit was a bit success but it seems the release is being scattered over three months so it could be a while before they know whether it's made money or not.

20 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Aye, it's underperforming Dawn - with a budget of $150 million compared to $93 for Dawn.  But I think between the high critical praise giving it legs and international markets, it still should be profitable (i.e. reach about $300 million total).  

I agree with the first paragraph.  However, a studio putting a valuable property to bed before it grew stale would be....rather unprecedented.

The Burton version was a financial success yet they chose to put it to bed and work on develoing the new trilogy. So sometimes studios can make the right call. Once in a blue moon.

10 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I haven't seen this one yet, but it seems to me that there should be room for the whole full circle thing. Like now apes are the dominant species and they start to more or less abuse that power, astronauts return from their little FTL time-warping jaunt to find civilization turned on its' head. Astronaut reminds apes how this all started and provides appropriate object lesson.

 And maybe brings back some alien virus that wipes out apes, setting the whole thing back to zero.

For me, the best reason to do another film is to show that the rot sets in with apes and the same mistakes are repeated. I think that's a key aspect of the Apes franchise and the new trilogy hinted at this a lot (with Caesar's "koba not ape" his realisation that apes were just as capable of backstabbing and being consumed by vengeance, and the rounding up of humans in Dawn).

The virus being some kind of mother nature "Flood" could work as an alternative to nukes again with nature saying "fuck it, lets not bother with intelligent animals dominating" and start from scratch.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

3 minutes ago, red snow said:

For me, the best reason to do another film is to show that the rot sets in with apes and the same mistakes are repeated. I think that's a key aspect of the Apes franchise and the new trilogy hinted at this a lot (with Caesar's "koba not ape" his realisation that apes were just as capable of backstabbing and being consumed by vengeance, and the rounding up of humans in Dawn).

Kind of the "Ape has killed Ape" mantra from the end of the first series. 

[HexMachina]

17 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Not just Caesar - there's a mute girl named Nova, just like the mute woman in the original.  And Caesar's second son is named Cornelius, the same name name as Roddy McDowell's nice-doctor ape in the original and father of the Caesar later in that series (also played by McDowell).  I prefer to think of these as homages rather than indicating any true "prequel," although since the trilogy continues to be both critically and commercially successful, I'm sure we'll get more offerings as Fox milks it for all its worth.

They're homages, definitely. Read an interview with the director (think it was the director) where he talked a bit about how things would need to drastically change between the end of this film and beginning of the Heston films. Most notably that we've really only followed Cesar's apes; other groups probably not so friendly...(see Koba. Man that second film was great)

[DMC]

15 minutes ago, red snow said:

The Burton version was a financial success yet they chose to put it to bed and work on develoing the new trilogy. So sometimes studios can make the right call. Once in a blue moon.

Fair enough.  Although I can imagine the studio offering a Burton sequel to a litany of writers and each one throwing up their hands and saying "I can't possibly construct a sensible narrative after that ending!"  (Not saying anything of the sort actually happened, just funny to think about).

@HelenaExMachina - that was probably Matt Reeves who co-wrote and directed War after only directing Dawn.  Actually, for those disappointed with War, it should be noted the couple that wrote both Rise and Dawn - Rick Jaffa and Amanda Silver - were not involved with War.

[Martini Sigil]

I really liked this movie... as I enjoy the franchise... but at the end of the day... all of these movies boil down to the same theme... and that is that the Apes are more humane than humans... 

Also... its a good thing for the kid that  they didn;t find the name plate for an old Pontiac Bonneville

[red snow]

9 hours ago, Martini Sigil said:

I really liked this movie... as I enjoy the franchise... but at the end of the day... all of these movies boil down to the same theme... and that is that the Apes are more humane than humans... 

Also... its a good thing for the kid that  they didn;t find the name plate for an old Pontiac Bonneville

I'm not sure that's entirely true. I got the impression humans and apes are all too similar and that came with the pros and cons. A big part of Caesar's arc was in him realising this and that included himself. It seems more a case of we all set out "good" but experiences stack up complicating and corrupting individuals and societies.

10 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Fair enough.  Although I can imagine the studio offering a Burton sequel to a litany of writers and each one throwing up their hands and saying "I can't possibly construct a sensible narrative after that ending!"  (Not saying anything of the sort actually happened, just funny to think about).

@HelenaExMachina - that was probably Matt Reeves who co-wrote and directed War after only directing Dawn.  Actually, for those disappointed with War, it should be noted the couple that wrote both Rise and Dawn - Rick Jaffa and Amanda Silver - were not involved with War.

On the whole "milk it dry" is the most likely decision of course. Maybe with Apes they don't have another studio breathing down their neck trying to get the rights (as is the case with Marvel studios and Fantastic Four, X-men) if they don't make a film every x amount of years.

Interesting point about the writing team. Good news for Avatar that those two are going to be writing some of the sequels apparently. Probably a good fit given Avatart is about 2+ sociteies trying (or not trying) to get along. Although I noticed they also wrote Jurassic World so they aren't guaranteed hits (it's hard to know how much a director ignores unless you read the original screenplay).

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

17 hours ago, dmc515 said:

That's true, they gave themselves the ability to go virtually any direction with that bit about the Icarus.  I also agree the Apes should be much more "evolved" (technologically) than they are now.  I think maybe the best way to do this is have maybe one movie setting up the new ape society and it'd probably have to be - at least - 15 years in the future showing how the apes have "devolved" morally to enslave humans, as @red snow said.  If it was ~15 years later, you could have the same Nova and Cornelius too.  Dunno what the explanation is for what the Icarus has been doing all that time, but if you've averse to time travel they could come up with some hypersleep story or something.

Wahlberg, and Estella Warren, were in the so bad it's good category, but I think if it wasn't for that ending the movie would be remembered more as simply pedestrian than horrible.  Honestly, Burton tells a shockingly straight-forward story compared to most of his other work, again, up until that ending.

Well I can see how it gets to slavery, devolved humans go to the apes for protection in exchange for work and it goes downhill from there. They were in suspended animation in the Original and kind of overslept and because they were moving close to the speed of light nearly 2000 years had passed on Earth.

[HexMachina]

14 hours ago, Martini Sigil said:

I really liked this movie... as I enjoy the franchise... but at the end of the day... all of these movies boil down to the same theme... and that is that the Apes are more humane than humans...

Also... its a good thing for the kid that  they didn;t find the name plate for an old Pontiac Bonneville

Did you watch the second movie at all? This statement is...bizarre in light of the second film

[SpaceChampion]

Saw it last night and enjoyed it.  If they make more but without Andy Serkis starring as a different character I'll be sad for that, but I can see him directing instead.

The box office for this opening weekend is better than Rise but not quite as good as Dawn.  Strangely, Rise did way better DVD/Blu Ray sales than Dawn.  If it stays consistent with those, War should make better than Rise's <$500M but not as much as Dawn's >$700M

 

 

[Martini Sigil]

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Did you watch the second movie at all? This statement is...bizarre in light of the second film

I see your point... there was a lot of gray area, especially in Dawn .... Koba was a psychotic ape... but he was made so only after humans had tortured him... and like Woody Harrelson's The Colonel .... Gary Oldman's Dreyfus was the antagonist for a morally superior Caesar

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, Martini Sigil said:

I see your point... there was a lot of gray area, especially in Dawn .... Koba was a psychotic ape... but he was made so only after humans had tortured him... and like Woody Harrelson's The Colonel .... Gary Oldman's Dreyfus was the antagonist for a morally superior Caesar

That's kind of my point though. Cesar is morally superior, but that does not mean all apes are. These films have focused on one group of apes, led by Cesar who is a product of his human upbringing, where for much of his life he was treated kindly. I doubt all other groups of apes are led by such individuals and act so morally. 

I do see your point, but I think you miss the mark, because this trilogy has mainly been Cesar's story, against a backdrop of the origin story for the Heston films. So it's following his development, his conflicts, how he acts towards other humans and apes, rather than apes in general. I think you would find that, like humans (of whom there are examples of non-shitty ones in the franchise) some apes would be morally good, others morally reprehensible, with most falling somewhere in between. I don't think the films do anything to dispel this idea either

[DMC]

Well said, @HelenaExMachina.  I also think the premise that the theme can be reduced to "apes are morally superior to humans" is misguided even for the third film, wherein the lines are most clearly drawn and our perspective is almost solely from the apes.

If you were to seriously consider the actual human reaction to such an existential threat as the Simian Flu, frankly even the actions of the antagonists in both Dawn and War are tame.  I guarantee you virtually everyone on this board would be advocating eradicating every ape carrier of a virus that either kills you or renders you mute and in a primitive state.  For a real world example, look at  how we deal with Mad Cow disease.  Do some people object to that?  Sure, but most understand it as preserving human life which is valued higher among all others in all civilizations throughout history.  

In that way, the human "villains" are entirely justified - except, I suppose, the Colonel killing those humans that have gone mute/native, but that's the entire point of his character.  Anyway this, to me, is what makes the series so great:  viewing humanity from the other side.  I don't judge Oldman or really even Harrelson's character in any morally self-superior context.  I feel as if you're doing so, you're missing the point.

[felice]

2 hours ago, dmc515 said:

I guarantee you virtually everyone on this board would be advocating eradicating every ape carrier of a virus that either kills you or renders you mute and in a primitive state.

I don't think the apes were carriers; it came across to me as a mutation of the virus within the human population. I'm assuming everyone caught the original virus, and only a fraction survived. Nova showed no indication of intellectual impairment; she was able to pick up some of the ape sign language pretty quickly. And the Colonel retained enough intelligence to be upset about what had happened to him. Human civilisation was effectively destroyed just by the loss of so much of the population; most of the survivors would effectively be scavengers and lack the skills and knowledge to survive once all the canned food was gone. Removing the ability to speak just accelerates the collapse; literacy would probably be lost in the next generation. The villains have understandable motives, but they're still villains. I certainly wouldn't murder anyone to save my voice.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, felice said:

I don't think the apes were carriers; it came across to me as a mutation of the virus within the human population. I'm assuming everyone caught the original virus, and only a fraction survived.

Well, seems to me what they were going for is contact with any ape carried the virus, but I see your point that basically all living humans were carriers as well.  ETA:  Not "basically," Harrelson explicitly states all human survivors are carriers.  Meant to mention that.

1 hour ago, felice said:

Nova showed no indication of intellectual impairment; she was able to pick up some of the ape sign language pretty quickly ... most of the survivors would effectively be scavengers and lack the skills and knowledge to survive once all the canned food was gone. Removing the ability to speak just accelerates the collapse; literacy would probably be lost in the next generation.

That kind of demonstrates the point, right?  Would survivors like Nova still retain some intelligence and certainly humanity?  Of course.  But would they have the intellectual capacity to maintain dominance or even equality among the advancing apes?  Clearly, no.  And that is an existential threat.  Hell, I'd take just maintaining equality with the apes in terms of intellectual capacity, but that wasn't the case.

1 hour ago, felice said:

The villains have understandable motives, but they're still villains. I certainly wouldn't murder anyone to save my voice.

See above.  I would murder any and all apes if it meant all of my species devolved to the point human progress was not only put to a halt, but threatened to be wholly eradicated due to a virus emanating from apes.

[felice]

2 hours ago, dmc515 said:

That kind of demonstrates the point, right?  Would survivors like Nova still retain some intelligence and certainly humanity?  Of course.  But would they have the intellectual capacity to maintain dominance or even equality among the advancing apes?  Clearly, no.

That's not caused by the apes, though - it's only thanks to the apes that humans like Nova will survive at all. I suppose eventually their hunter-gather descendants would develop a sufficiently sophisticated sign language to start developing a new civilisation even without the help of apes, but they'd be virtually starting from scratch.

2 hours ago, dmc515 said:

See above.  I would murder any and all apes if it meant all of my species devolved to the point human progress was not only put to a halt, but threatened to be wholly eradicated due to a virus emanating from apes.

The virus was created by humans and spread by humans; apes caught it too, but aside from the original experimental subjects, only because it went everywhere. The intelligent apes are effectively humanity's children, albeit unplanned, and it's not fair to blame them for the contraceptive failure. They're the only way any trace of human culture will be preserved.

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, felice said:

That's not caused by the apes, though - it's only thanks to the apes that humans like Nova will survive at all. I suppose eventually their hunter-gather descendants would develop a sufficiently sophisticated sign language to start developing a new civilisation even without the help of apes, but they'd be virtually starting from scratch.

Exactly, they'd be starting from scratch.  I don't understand the argument that this was not caused by apes.  In reality, the apes would entirely be blamed (right after those that enabled the spreading of the virus through experimentation).

4 minutes ago, felice said:

The intelligent apes are effectively humanity's children, albeit unplanned, and it's not fair to blame them for the contraceptive failure. They're the only way any trace of human culture will be preserved.

I agree with this, especially the bolded.  But I sincerely don't think that's how the surviving - and still cognizant - humans would see things.

[red snow]

8 hours ago, felice said:

I don't think the apes were carriers; it came across to me as a mutation of the virus within the human population. I'm assuming everyone caught the original virus, and only a fraction survived. Nova showed no indication of intellectual impairment; she was able to pick up some of the ape sign language pretty quickly. And the Colonel retained enough intelligence to be upset about what had happened to him. Human civilisation was effectively destroyed just by the loss of so much of the population; most of the survivors would effectively be scavengers and lack the skills and knowledge to survive once all the canned food was gone. Removing the ability to speak just accelerates the collapse; literacy would probably be lost in the next generation. The villains have understandable motives, but they're still villains. I certainly wouldn't murder anyone to save my voice.

It's definitely a case of ignorance on the part of the Colonel and his men - equating loss of voice with stupidity. It seemed even the other human groups saw this as mistaken. The fact Nova and her "dad" (who she seemed to lose no sleep over being killed by apes) who was collecting firewood seemed to lack nothing but their voice confirmed this.

I also got the impression that the "silent" virus was being spread by humans, potentially by body fluids and not the apes. Evidence for this was that they focused on the blood on the doll from Nova when the Colonel held it. Also the people didn't who got the silent virus didn't appear to be in contact with apes so other than paranoia why assume it was from apes? Infact blaming apes makes no sense as they continue to use "donkeys". If you thought the new virus was from them you'd exterminate them all - especially those in close contact with you.

As for the simian virus - the name suggests where the blame lies, irrespective of whether they are to blame. I think it did spread from Cesar and the others in the sense that the virus had to be in the test apes before transmitting to humans. Once in a human though the spread was human to human. There's no way it could spread so fast if it was only infected ape to human transmission because if it were it'dbe a really easy virus to contain. Most people encounter apes via zoos not from random encounters like via a bird. Again bird and swine flu isn't something where people thought "avoid birds and pigs" it was "avoid infected humans".

Regarding humans wiping out Apes I still think it's important to remember we're doing (essentially have in many cases) that already. Imagine if there was a perceived reason for doing so? They'd last a few months.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

1 hour ago, red snow said:

It's definitely a case of ignorance on the part of the Colonel and his men - equating loss of voice with stupidity. It seemed even the other human groups saw this as mistaken. The fact Nova and her "dad" (who she seemed to lose no sleep over being killed by apes) who was collecting firewood seemed to lack nothing but their voice confirmed this.

I also got the impression that the "silent" virus was being spread by humans, potentially by body fluids and not the apes. Evidence for this was that they focused on the blood on the doll from Nova when the Colonel held it. Also the people didn't who got the silent virus didn't appear to be in contact with apes so other than paranoia why assume it was from apes? Infact blaming apes makes no sense as they continue to use "donkeys". If you thought the new virus was from them you'd exterminate them all - especially those in close contact with you.

As for the simian virus - the name suggests where the blame lies, irrespective of whether they are to blame. I think it did spread from Cesar and the others in the sense that the virus had to be in the test apes before transmitting to humans. Once in a human though the spread was human to human. There's no way it could spread so fast if it was only infected ape to human transmission because if it were it'dbe a really easy virus to contain. Most people encounter apes via zoos not from random encounters like via a bird. Again bird and swine flu isn't something where people thought "avoid birds and pigs" it was "avoid infected humans".

Regarding humans wiping out Apes I still think it's important to remember we're doing (essentially have in many cases) that already. Imagine if there was a perceived reason for doing so? They'd last a few months.

In the first one the James Franco's assistant got infected during a test of a more aggressive strain of the drug. The canister broke or something and it got in his face. And he passed it on to his neighbor who was a pilot or something and it spread at the airport.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

31 minutes ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said:

In the first one the James Franco's assistant got infected during a test of a more aggressive strain of the drug. The canister broke or something and it got in his face. And he passed it on to his neighbor who was a pilot or something and it spread at the airport.

Yeah the final scene of Rise is in the airport, shows the disease spreading across the world. Think its post credits maybe as well.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

37 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Yeah the final scene of Rise is in the airport, shows the disease spreading across the world. Think its post credits maybe as well.

They show him infecting the pilot and the spread is indeed post credits.