Original First Men (Pre-Andal Invasion)

[FylkirKarl]

We know that the First Men evolved into varying cultures, the ones North of the Wall being the Free Folk, the ones in the North becoming the Northmen, the ones in the Vale becoming the Mountains Clans and everyone else kinda integrated with the Andals bar the Blackwoods who seem to maintain their First Men culture with a dabble of Knighthood. Anyways, what where the First Men like pre-andal invasion but post-long night? Where they a combination of Free Folk and Northmen or where they this or that or etc, just what where they like? For example, the Vale had a bunch of warring clans basically while the North most likely was for the most part unified under Theon Stark, did the First Men become more Andal in there feudal society and lose the "wildling" traits like being free? When did they start the whole feudal practice instead of saying in warring clans? Was in when the Andals invaded as it was better for First Men to fight with First Men against the invaders rather than fight each other? Discuss!

[Free Northman Reborn]

I think the Umbers represent your typical First Man kingdom from a couple of thousand years ago.

 

[TMIFairy]

I am not sure if by the time of the Andal invasion the North was unified already.

I also am not sure if consolidation to the south of the Neck had happened either. Anyhow, it was only in the Vale that the Andals completely surpressed the locals. Elsewhere they "took over" by conquering some parts and intermarrying with the local RULING houses - Lannisters, Gardeners, Durrandons ...

The latter two were only overthrown by the Targs. In the Riverlands the powerful Houses such as Tully's, Bracken's, Blackwoods  - all are of the First Men, the former two converting at some point. The Bracken's doubtlessly simply out of spite for the Blackwoods

This mirrors the Anglo-Saxon "conquest" of Britain - the Saxons being brought over as mercenaries to be used by one Briton kingdom against another.

There are various theories out there as to the "why" of Andal success. Some theorise that it could had been the superiority of steel (misnamed "iron") weaponry versus bronze.

Maybe it was tactics? Heavy cavalry versus poorly trained and armed foot? Maybe the First Men were not numerous and - once given a foothold ,- the Andals could bring over their people from Essos and quickly grow inumber and be impossible to dislodge?

Maybe it was motivation? IIRC Andals were fleeing Valyrian (?) conquest, so it was "do or die (in slavery)" for them?

And once they were in Westeros, in large number, then maybe they had something "better" about their religion and/or society which made the south slowly adopt Andal ways? Remember - only the Vale was ethnically cleansed. Or better - culturally cleansed - it was "adopt Andal ways or become underclass". Again, look at OTL Anglo-Saxon society - the weregild (blood money) for killing a "Welshman" (i.e. a Briton) was HALF that of the fine charged for killing a "man" (i.e. Saxon).

The Andals must have had something going for them as even the North - which had repelled all their attempts to settle there - ended adopting the Andali language and writing system ...

"Rolling back" the First Man religion and/or culture was not an overnight development - it took centuries.

Of course, all this is a la-la land and the author might not be interested in fleshing out everything and there need not be logic to everything either. The more one tries to "make sense" of fantasy worlds the more these fall apart - so it better not to look TOO closely

 

 

 

[direpupy]

22 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

I am not sure if by the time of the Andal invasion the North was unified already.

TWoIaF states that the North was unified by the time that the first andals started arriving.

[TMIFairy]

52 minutes ago, direpupy said:

TWoIaF states that the North was unified by the time that the first andals started arriving.

Thank you for correcting me.

Do you remember the state of the South? E.g. was the Reach united under the Gardners, or separate kingdoms, like that of the Tower still existed?

[FylkirKarl]

The Vale wasn't unified, and the Andals of the Vale smashed the unified Riverlands who were controlled by the Mudds. The Westerlands, Stormlands, and Reach were unified, and this is why they were able to survive the Andal Invasion with the Durrandon, Gardener, and Lannister name surviving, also with the North. Dorne was not unified as the Rhoynish which came later sided with the Martells out of 6 or 7 other kings, Daynes being among them. The Iron Islands were unified under the Greyirons, but their hold wasn't solid as many Ironborn houses sided with the Andals and overthrew the Greyirons.

[direpupy]

4 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Thank you for correcting me.

Do you remember the state of the South? E.g. was the Reach united under the Gardners, or separate kingdoms, like that of the Tower still existed?

The only clear statement is on the North, the Reach is united by the time the andals get to the Reach, but that is long after they started coming to westeros since at that point they already conquered the vale and most of the Riverlands.

And the Riverlands don't seem to be united at that point either, though most is in the hands of house Mudd they do not hold all of the Riverlands. Maidenpool for instance is a seperate kingdom at that time.

The Westerlands are not fully united either since King Cerion Lannister extends his kingdom with Andal help by taking the Golden Tooth and Tommen I Lannister captured Fair Isle. All of this is after the Andals arrive in the Westerlands.

I am not entirely sure about the Stormlands other then that at the time of the andal invasions the where fighting against the Masseys who had set themselves up as (pirate) Kings of Massey's Hook. This conflict was actually what drew the Andal warlord Togarion Bar Emmon to the Stormlands.

[TMIFairy]

45 minutes ago, FylkirKarl said:

various things which I SNIPPED i.e. deleted to make this post shorter yet with the intention of making it clear that I was referring to that member's contribution

 

44 minutes ago, direpupy said:

various things which I SNIPPED i.e. deleted to make this post shorter yet with the intention of making it clear that I was referring to that member's contribution

 

Thank you, good people

[FylkirKarl]

I SAID NO SUCH THING AS SNIP! FAKE NEWS ABOVE!

[TMIFairy]

OK - will make my post clearer ...