Shouldve Taken The Black Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 13 minutes ago, cpg2016 said: All we know is he wants power for it's own sake, mainly so he can stick it to the haughty nobles he grew up with like Hoster Tully and Brandon Stark. We know Varys wants to put a prince on the throne who is kind and understands the plight of the smallfolk. In fairness, we don't know either of those things. We think Littlefinger wants power for its own sake, because his actions so far point in that direction, but I wouldn't be surprised if deeper motivations are revealed later on. No idea what they would be, but I think LF's character is more complex than people give him credit for. We think Varys is looking after the realm/smallfolk, but only because he says he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 3 minutes ago, TMIFairy said: Heinrich Himmler or Che Guevara - no difference. Same butchers.. Maybe I'm a sociopath, but you are simply an apologist of the "right" sort of mass murderer. The sort of person who whitewashed Stalin or Hitler because of their "good intentions". Godwin's Law strikes again. I'm sure we can debate the relative merits of characters in a work of fiction without blaming each other for the Holocaust or the Gulags. You know, like grownups do. 5 minutes ago, TMIFairy said: Without Varys the Seven Kingdoms would had stumbled along with less bloodshed and suffering. What bloodshed is Varys responsible for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 5 minutes ago, TMIFairy said: Heinrich Himmler or Che Guevara - no difference. Same butchers.. Maybe I'm a sociopath, but you are simply an apologist of the "right" sort of mass murderer. The sort of person who whitewashed Stalin or Hitler because of their "good intentions". Without Varys the Seven Kingdoms would had stumbled along with less bloodshed and suffering. Varys is neither a ruler nor the head of secret police nor a military leader. He didn't command to put down a lot insurgents nor did he command any death camps. This comparison is way off, especially in light of the fact that Varys did not, in fact, cause the War of the Five Kings. He tried to prevent it. Littlefinger's and Varys' motivations are both to be deduced from their words and their actions in the books, and as things start Varys is much more benevolent than Littlefinger. Littlefinger is a selfish prick and Varys' agenda is to help others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMIFairy Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 33 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: What bloodshed is Varys responsible for? Maybe I'm wrong but I see him as being responsible for the War of the Five Kings. "For the Good of the Realm" would had been backing Ned against Cersei and putting Stannis on the throne. Tywin might had rebelled but it would been a "Tywin's Rebellion", involving the Riverlands and Westerlands, and not a free-for-all blood-fest wrecking most of Westeros. Re Goodwin's Law - good catch! Yup, I was fast. Only three pages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpg2016 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 30 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: In fairness, we don't know either of those things. We think Littlefinger wants power for its own sake, because his actions so far point in that direction, but I wouldn't be surprised if deeper motivations are revealed later on. No idea what they would be, but I think LF's character is more complex than people give him credit for. We think Varys is looking after the realm/smallfolk, but only because he says he is. Well, what else are we supposed to go off of? I don't know that you think what you just wrote about... I only think it because you say so. I don't know the earth is round... it could just be that there is a vast global conspiracy. I don't know Australia exists, even if I've been there - after all, maybe the plan just flew around a bunch and landed in some random spot and told me it was Australia. If you're going to be that deconstructionist, then there is no knowledge and everything is an opinion, or could be a conspiracy, and you have no business asserting anything at all. If you have a legitimate reason to think a character is lying, say so (e.g. Taena Merryweather claiming she saw Tyrion putting poison in Joffrey's chalice). In Varys' case, his entire story and all his actions back up his assertion - we have no reason to doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 1 minute ago, TMIFairy said: Maybe I'm wrong but I see him as being responsible for the War of the Five Kings. You are wrong, he tried to prevent it. The people to blame were Littlefinger, and Joffery, and to a lesser extent Cersei. 2 minutes ago, TMIFairy said: "For the Good of the Realm" would had been backing Ned against Cersei and putting Stannis on the throne. Varys explains how the realm would bleed if Stannis won. Can't disagree with his logic really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpg2016 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 38 minutes ago, TMIFairy said: Heinrich Himmler or Che Guevara - no difference. Same butchers.. Maybe I'm a sociopath, but you are simply an apologist of the "right" sort of mass murderer. The sort of person who whitewashed Stalin or Hitler because of their "good intentions". Without Varys the Seven Kingdoms would had stumbled along with less bloodshed and suffering. This is absurd. First off, no one "whitewashes" Hitler. He didn't have good intentions. But is Truman worse that Hitler or Stalin? Or Churchill? Anyone who every fought a war? The entire concept is laughable. Some people fight to defend, others to enslave. Of course there is a difference. Does it matter that Truman dropped the bomb in part to avoid the oceans of blood, both American and Japanese, that would have occurred in an amphibious invasion of the Japanese home islands, or is it all the same if he was cackling madly and jerking off while he killed hundreds of thousands of people just to get his rocks off? Obviously there is a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormking902 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 18 hours ago, Tour De Force said: That's not really a fact. It was not until Rhaegar was about to leave for the trident when he expressed his intent to call for a Great Council. Varys would know that Rhaegar is not a good future king. A man who would leave his wife and kids to chase a woman engaged to another is a slime. Varys serves the realm and the realm rightly belongs to the Targaryens. The realm was prosperous under Aerys. Look how much ruin the Baratheons brought in 16 short years. More like look what 16 years of Robert and Jon Arryn brought to the realm, yes Jon Arryn wasnt the king but he was like a father to Robert and should have been more stern about Roberts duty to the realm letting your so called son run around whoring and drinking while the realm slowly falls apart seems like Jon was more of a yes ser type then anything..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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