Ser Snowflake

The desolation of Dragonstone (Spoilers!)

43 posts in this topic

I see no problem with it. It's the kind of thing that could be easily explained a number of ways but wasn't necessary and would've detracted from the moment.

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The only question I have is did Selyse leave behind her jars of fetuses.

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This is silly. I guarantee before Dany landed on Dragonstone some sort of expeditionary force was sent to the island to get the lay of the land and probe for info. Any token force left by Stannis probably shit themselves and bent the knee to this token probe when they saw a huge fleet and three dragons. The smallfolk of Dragonstone probably did the same.

Then, when the expedtionary force reports back to the fleet that the Island is secure, Dany gets in her little boat like Washington Crossing the Delaware and sets foot on Dragonstone for the beautifully shot silent triumphant arrival. Again, any smallfolk are probably trying to just stay out of her way. 

To complain about this is to complain that you lack imagination. The show shouldn't have to take the time to film smallfolk putting fresh rushes out on the floor in the bedrooms. I'm not watching Game of Thrones to watch the janitor at Dragonstone wonder when Stannis is coming back; I'm watching to see Dany walk up that bridge with Dragon's flying overhead and take her rightful seat.

Even if there is a battle at Dragonstone and Stannis's peeps try to fight against Dany's force-it'd be a foregone conclusion they will lose. Don't waste time showing it. The closing scene was awesome and requires no suspension of disbelief. 

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16 minutes ago, LordBlakeney said:

This is silly. I guarantee before Dany landed on Dragonstone some sort of expeditionary force was sent to the island to get the lay of the land and probe for info. Any token force left by Stannis probably shit themselves and bent the knee to this token probe when they saw a huge fleet and three dragons. The smallfolk of Dragonstone probably did the same.

Then, when the expedtionary force reports back to the fleet that the Island is secure, Dany gets in her little boat like Washington Crossing the Delaware and sets foot on Dragonstone for the beautifully shot silent triumphant arrival. Again, any smallfolk are probably trying to just stay out of her way. 

To complain about this is to complain that you lack imagination. The show shouldn't have to take the time to film smallfolk putting fresh rushes out on the floor in the bedrooms. I'm not watching Game of Thrones to watch the janitor at Dragonstone wonder when Stannis is coming back; I'm watching to see Dany walk up that bridge with Dragon's flying overhead and take her rightful seat.

Even if there is a battle at Dragonstone and Stannis's peeps try to fight against Dany's force-it'd be a foregone conclusion they will lose. Don't waste time showing  it. The closing scene was awesome and requires no suspension of disbelief. 

First off, I loved the scene and the music. However I disagree with your logic that people complaining about the desolation of the Targaryen Fortress are being silly

Dragonstone is strategically located in Blackwater Bay, and it should have been manned by forces loyal to Stannis or the Iron Throne. 50 men with crossbows could have put up a fight. I'm sure that Dany wouldn't use her dragons to burn down her own castle. D&D keep building Cersei up like she's some kind of genius, and she is smarter in show than she is in books; but even book Cersei sent a fleet to take Dragonstone.  I love the show and books, but I recognize a plot hole when I see one.

In this same episode, you have Jaime and Cersei discussing where Dany would potentially land with her fleet. Jaime correctly told her Dragonstone, which is hours away from KL. In the same episode, Euron shows up with a huge fleet and a marriage proposal. I thought that his "gift" was going to be Dragonstone, but that would have actually made sense. In fact KL and Dragonstone are so close in proximity, I'm having a hard time believing that Euron's fleet and Dany's armada never caught sight of each other.

I'm curious to see how Dany proceeds with her invasion. Judging by the ease at which she took Dragonstone, she should be sitting her pretty ass on the Iron Throne by episode 3.

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1 minute ago, Ser Snowflake said:

Dragonstone is strategically located in Blackwater Bay, and it should have been manned by forces loyal to Stannis or the Iron Throne. 50 men with crossbows could have put up a fight. I'm sure that Dany wouldn't use her dragons to burn down her own castle. D&D keep building Cersei up like she's some kind of genius, and she is smarter in show than she is in books; but even book Cersei sent a fleet to take Dragonstone.  I love the show and books, but I recognize a plot hole when I see one.

Again, most likely explanation is there was a garrison on Dragonstone, and they were quickly subdued/quickly surrendered once Dany showed up. This is such a weak excuse to complain about a "plot hole."

It is ridiculous to think Dany sailed all those thousands of leagues to Dragonstone with tens of thousands of soldiers at her disposal and then took the first boat to the island. An invasion force that strong would send scouts ahead for reconnaissance. These scouts are the people who would have encountered your 50 men with crossbows. They either killed them, or those people surrendered. Then these scouts would give the go-ahead to Grey Worm "Hey you can bring the Queen now the Island is secured."

I don't need to watch a 5 minute scene of Unsullied soldiers clearing Dragonstone room by room. Assume they did, assume it's then that Dany arrives, and just enjoy the show. 

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5 minutes ago, LordBlakeney said:

Again, most likely explanation is there was a garrison on Dragonstone, and they were quickly subdued/quickly surrendered once Dany showed up. This is such a weak excuse to complain about a "plot hole."

It is ridiculous to think Dany sailed all those thousands of leagues to Dragonstone with tens of thousands of soldiers at her disposal and then took the first boat to the island. An invasion force that strong would send scouts ahead for reconnaissance. These scouts are the people who would have encountered your 50 men with crossbows. They either killed them, or those people surrendered. Then these scouts would give the go-ahead to Grey Worm "Hey you can bring the Queen now the Island is secured."

I don't need to watch a 5 minute scene of Unsullied soldiers clearing Dragonstone room by room. Assume they did, assume it's then that Dany arrives, and just enjoy the show. 

So you would rather watch a scene of Dany walking silently through a suspiciously empty Dragonstone, than watch the unsullied fight a battle to clear the castle?  

To quote Cersei...."I choose violence"

And it would take considerably longer than 5 minutes to clear a fortified position....even it only 50 men held it.

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14 minutes ago, Ser Snowflake said:

So you would rather watch a scene of Dany walking silently through a suspiciously empty Dragonstone, than watch the unsullied fight a battle to clear the castle?  

To quote Cersei...."I choose violence"

And it would take considerably longer than 5 minutes to clear a fortified position....even it only 50 men held it.

Think about it this way. We know Dany probably took some nasty shits on her voyage to Westeros. It's a long way, nature will come calling, especially with god-knows-what kind of food they would serve on a medieval sea crossing. However, I don't need to watch her take those shits. There's only so much screen time a TV show can give something, and I'd rather they save their time for something besides someone struggling to take a shit. For narrative purposes, a shot of Dany leaving Mereen with the fleet and a shot of her arriving in Westeros with the fleet is enough to get the point across: she just sailed the seas and arrived back where she needs to be. 

I don't need scenes of her on the voyage dealing with Dothraki sea sickness and explosive diarrhea. It's probable that a couple of her ships were assailed by pirates. Maybe there was even a sea-battle or two. But none of that is shown in the TV show because 1) it won't matter to the plot in the long run and 2) taking time to show that on screen means less time with Arya killing Freys or Dragons flying around or the Mountain smashing heads.

Stannis's garrison on Dragonstone can be safely put in the "sea-pirates and shits" category. Sure, watching some sea-pirates try to take a Dothraki-ladden ship would be fun, but it doesn't further the plot so let's not waste time on it in a TV show. Sure, watching 50 of Stannis's guys try to fight off some Unsullied might be cool, but Dany has tens of thousands. She's taking the Island. Why not just get to the money shot of her landing on the Island, and skip the nonsense of a tiny garrison that likely surrendered at the first sight of dragons anyway?

Stannis is dead and gone. Why would I want to waste good TV time on shots of soldiers formerly loyal to him fighting for... what? That story is over. The new characters are here. The new players are here. Out with the old. The TV show is telling a story, it's going to focus on the important parts and leave the extraneous details to your imagination, as any good TV show should. 

So again, assume there were people. Assume they surrendered. Assume they tried to stay out of sight of the fearsome new Dragon Queen as she surveyed her conquest. It's not that hard at all. And enjoy the show.

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2 minutes ago, LordBlakeney said:

Think about it this way. We know Dany probably took some nasty shits on her voyage to Westeros. It's a long way, nature will come calling, especially with god-knows-what kind of food they would serve on a medieval sea crossing. However, I don't need to watch her take those shits. There's only so much screen time a TV show can give something, and I'd rather they save their time for something besides someone struggling to take a shit. For narrative purposes, a shot of Dany leaving Mereen with the fleet and a shot of her arriving in Westeros with the fleet is enough to get the point across: she just sailed the seas and arrived back where she needs to be. 

I don't need scenes of her on the voyage dealing with Dothraki sea sickness and explosive diarrhea. It's probable that a couple of her ships were assailed by pirates. Maybe there was even a sea-battle or two. But none of that is shown in the TV show because 1) it won't matter to the plot in the long run and 2) taking time to show that on screen means less time with Arya killing Freys or Dragons flying around or the Mountain smashing heads.

Stannis's garrison on Dragonstone can be safely put in the "sea-pirates and shits" category. Sure, watching some sea-pirates try to take a Dothraki-ladden ship would be fun, but it doesn't further the plot so let's not waste time on it in a TV show. Sure, watching 50 of Stannis's guys try to fight off some Unsullied might be cool, but Dany has tens of thousands. She's taking the Island. Why not just get to the money shot of her landing on the Island, and skip the nonsense of a tiny garrison that likely surrendered at the first sight of dragons anyway?

Stannis is dead and gone. Why would I want to waste good TV time on shots of soldiers formerly loyal to him fighting for... what? That story is over. The new characters are here. The new players are here. Out with the old. The TV show is telling a story, it's going to focus on the important parts and leave the extraneous details to your imagination, as any good TV show should. 

So again, assume there were people. Assume they surrendered. Assume they tried to stay out of sight of the fearsome new Dragon Queen as she surveyed her conquest. It's not that hard at all. And enjoy the show.

It's funny that you mention that you don't need to watch Dany taking shits during her voyage to Westeros. Episode one had a montage of Sam Tarly changing the shitty bedpans of the infirm at Oldtown. This scene dragged on for so long that I swear that I could almost smell the shit through my TV. The whole time, I was wondering to myself, who thought that including this in the show was a good idea? Do you think that this was an important part of the show?

Last season, they showed the Blackfish defending Riverrun against the Lannisters. Robb was dead and gone, yet the Blackfish fought on valiantly in his name. I enjoyed that scene immensely, because I love medieval warfare. I love Dany and Emilla Clark and I think that Khaleesi is the finest woman on the show........but I still would rather watch a battle than her grace making her way from her armada to the throne room without saying a word.

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24 minutes ago, Ser Snowflake said:

First off, I loved the scene and the music. However I disagree with your logic that people complaining about the desolation of the Targaryen Fortress are being silly

Dragonstone is strategically located in Blackwater Bay, and it should have been manned by forces loyal to Stannis or the Iron Throne. 50 men with crossbows could have put up a fight. I'm sure that Dany wouldn't use her dragons to burn down her own castle. D&D keep building Cersei up like she's some kind of genius, and she is smarter in show than she is in books; but even book Cersei sent a fleet to take Dragonstone.  I love the show and books, but I recognize a plot hole when I see one.

In this same episode, you have Jaime and Cersei discussing where Dany would potentially land with her fleet. Jaime correctly told her Dragonstone, which is hours away from KL. In the same episode, Euron shows up with a huge fleet and a marriage proposal. I thought that his "gift" was going to be Dragonstone, but that would have actually made sense. In fact KL and Dragonstone are so close in proximity, I'm having a hard time believing that Euron's fleet and Dany's armada never caught sight of each other.

Euron may have visited King's Landing days or weeks before Dany's armada passed near there. 

It's beyond belief to me that any of Stannis' soldiers would've still been guarding Dragonstone after he died, especially if they heard three dragons were on their way (which had almost certainly become widespread news before Dany landed). Maybe Cersei did send a small force there and they deserted after hearing the same, but more likely I just doubt she'd want to send men and resources there when she's already lacking both and has far more important locations to defend while being surrounded by enemies. When you are vastly outnumbered, losing 50 men and all their supplies to kill 100 isn't smart. And if Cersei made taking the castle more trouble than it's worth, Dany could just land somewhere else, neutralizing Cersei's Dragonstone contingent without losing anyone.

I'm just glad the writers didn't use screen time explaining all of these things to us.

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10 minutes ago, cade said:

I'm just glad the writers didn't use screen time explaining all of these things to us.

Right? There's a million reasons for Dany's scene on Dragonstone. We're smart enough to understand that we don't need exposition for every little detail. Get on with the story!

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1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

The only question I have is did Selyse leave behind her jars of fetuses.

Lmao I was wondering the same thing! It's a legit inquiry. 

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3 minutes ago, cade said:

Euron may have visited King's Landing days or weeks before Dany's armada passed near there. 

It's beyond belief to me that any of Stannis' soldiers would've still been guarding Dragonstone after he died, especially if they heard three dragons were on their way (which had almost certainly become widespread news before Dany landed). Maybe Cersei did send a small force there and they deserted after hearing the same, but more likely I just doubt she'd want to send men and resources there when she's already lacking both and has far more important locations to defend while being surrounded by enemies. When you are vastly outnumbered, losing 50 men and all their supplies to kill 100 isn't smart. And if Cersei made taking the castle more trouble than it's worth, Dany could just land somewhere else, neutralizing Cersei's Dragonstone contingent without losing anyone.

I'm just glad the writers didn't use screen time explaining all of these things to us.

Maybe I'm biased because in the books, that is exactly what happened. Men loyal to Stannis held Dragonstone in his name after he went to the wall. 

The same happened when Renly died....men loyal to King Renly held Storm's End in his name until Davos showed up with Melisandre and a shadow baby.

Just last season, the Blackfish held Riverrun in Robb's name against the wrath of the Lannisters and Freys.

And when Jon "died" his men remained loyal to him, refusing to bend the knee to Allister Thorne and the rest of the traitors.

It is a common theme in the show and books that men continue fighting in the name of their king even if their king is dead. Dragonstone isn''t just some insignificant castle....it is traditionally the seat of the Heir to the Iron Throne. The castle's history and location (DS guards the entrance to  Blackwater Bay, which leads to KL) should have been enough for Cersei to make it a priority to take and hold against Dany.

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, Ser Snowflake said:

Maybe I'm biased because in the books, that is exactly what happened. Men loyal to Stannis held Dragonstone in his name after he went to the wall. 

The same happened when Renly died....men loyal to King Renly held Storm's End in his name until Davos showed up with Melisandre and a shadow baby.

Just last season, the Blackfish held Riverrun in Robb's name against the wrath of the Lannisters and Freys.

And when Jon "died" his men remained loyal to him, refusing to bend the knee to Allister Thorne and the rest of the traitors.

It is a common theme in the show and books that men continue fighting in the name of their king even if their king is dead. Dragonstone isn''t just some insignificant castle....it is traditionally the seat of the Heir to the Iron Throne. The castle's history and location (DS guards the entrance to  Blackwater Bay, which leads to KL) should have been enough for Cersei to make it a priority to take and hold against Dany.

I don't think those other situations are analogous. Foremost because -- and I didn't mention this earlier because I didn't want to pour salt in the wounds of Stannis fans -- Stannis disgraced himself when he burned his own daughter alive. Most of his men had deserted him even before he died. When he died, that proved he was a false prophet who'd murdered his daughter for nothing. Then, even if some still stayed loyal on Dragonstone and still had enough food to survive there, they hear The Dragon Queen is coming home with three dragons, 100,000 Dothraki, etc...

Cersei basically has no fleet, so she can't guard Blackwater Bay even if she held Dragonstone. She could if she aligned with Euron, but she hasn't yet, and Euron would be too smart to leave his fleet in such an obvious spot for the dragons to burn down

Strategically, I don't see how Dragonstone is that valuable to Cersei up against the vast array and options of Dany's forces, but for the sake of argument let's assume Cersei did send a force there to hold Dragonstone. That still doesn't guarantee they stay there when they hear what's coming for them. Cersei doesn't inspire loyalty. (Edit: Nevermind that last hypothetical. I just remembered Stannis' banner was still hanging there, so of course it's clear Cersei's forces hadn't been there. Also just noticed when rewatching his scene with Cersei that Jaime said Stannis left Dragonstone unoccupied.)

Edited by cade

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9 hours ago, cade said:

I don't think those other situations are analogous. Foremost because -- and I didn't mention this earlier because I didn't want to pour salt in the wounds of Stannis fans -- Stannis disgraced himself when he burned his own daughter alive. Most of his men had deserted him even before he died. When he died, that proved he was a false prophet who'd murdered his daughter for nothing. Then, even if some still stayed loyal on Dragonstone and still had enough food to survive there, they hear The Dragon Queen is coming home with three dragons, 100,000 Dothraki, etc...

Cersei basically has no fleet, so she can't guard Blackwater Bay even if she held Dragonstone. She could if she aligned with Euron, but she hasn't yet, and Euron would be too smart to leave his fleet in such an obvious spot for the dragons to burn down

Strategically, I don't see how Dragonstone is that valuable to Cersei up against the vast array and options of Dany's forces, but for the sake of argument let's assume Cersei did send a force there to hold Dragonstone. That still doesn't guarantee they stay there when they hear what's coming for them. Cersei doesn't inspire loyalty.

Knowing Cersei's penchant for using wildfire to destroy her enemies, I'm surprised that she didn't just have DS burned when she heard that Dany was finally heading west with a huge fleet. That would have put the Dragon Queen in a precarious situation.

Dany is in position to inflict massive casualties on KL. I'm sure Tyrion will try to convince her not to just burn down KL and the Red Keep, and to defeat Cersei in the field, breaking her power without destroying the city; but that is a fine line to walk.

All of this is good for Jon in the long term because Cersie will be preoccupied for the moment with keeping the Dragon out of KL. Cersei lacks the men and navy to assault Dragonstone, and even if she secures Euron's fleet, she has no answer for the dragons.

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Actually we never see Cersei learning about Dany's arrival. And this is another plot gap. Nobody cared about Dany and her possible claim since s1 when Robbie B ordered to kill her. After his death everyone in Westeros was too busy fighting each other. 

Revelation that a huge threat is coming should have come as a big shock for Cersei, when she thought that her enemies are all gone. It wasn't addressed in the show. Instead Cersei and Jaime discuss it so casually as if Dany was some small rebellious lord with a tiny army.

Preparation for Dany's arrival to Westeros should have been even bigger than the preparation for the BwBB. 

Of course, I could use my imagination and assume it has happened during the gap between s6 and s7. But why would I watch the show where major moments are just skipped? Let's imagine that Jon won over the WWs and that's it.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Ser Snowflake said:

Knowing Cersei's penchant for using wildfire to destroy her enemies, I'm surprised that she didn't just have DS burned when she heard that Dany was finally heading west with a huge fleet. That would have put the Dragon Queen in a precarious situation.

Strategically, I don't think it would matter much. She could land many other places. I'm not sure Cersei has that much wildfire to spare, and it would be extremely dangerous to transport it by sea. She may want to save all that she has left to defend King's Landing, and blow it up if she's doomed. (Btw, I edited in a correction to one of my hypotheticals in my previous post.)

Quote

 

59 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Actually we never see Cersei learning about Dany's arrival. And this is another plot gap. Nobody cared about Dany and her possible claim since s1 when Robbie B ordered to kill her. After his death everyone in Westeros was too busy fighting each other. 

Revelation that a huge threat is coming should have come as a big shock for Cersei, when she thought that her enemies are all gone. It wasn't addressed in the show. Instead Cersei and Jaime discuss it so casually as if Dany was some small rebellious lord with a tiny army.

Preparation for Dany's arrival to Westeros should have been even bigger than the preparation for the BwBB. 

Of course, I could use my imagination and assume it has happened during the gap between s6 and s7. But why would I watch the show where major moments are just skipped? Let's imagine that Jon won over the WWs and that's it.

Cersei has always been dismissive of Dany and her dragons. Now she's drunk with power and even more arrogant, talking about launching "a dynasty that lasts a thousand years." Jaime was trying to stress the urgency of the situation. He told her, "I'm not sure you understand the danger we're in." Even if she is scared by the forces Dany's assembled, she's not going to show that to anyone. Still, I agree that ideally it would've been best to see that moment of her learning of Dany's pending invasion, but because of how last season ended and this one began, I don't see a good spot for it.

Edited by cade

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15 hours ago, LordBlakeney said:

This is silly. I guarantee before Dany landed on Dragonstone some sort of expeditionary force was sent to the island to get the lay of the land and probe for info. Any token force left by Stannis probably shit themselves and bent the knee to this token probe when they saw a huge fleet and three dragons. The smallfolk of Dragonstone probably did the same.

Then, when the expedtionary force reports back to the fleet that the Island is secure, Dany gets in her little boat like Washington Crossing the Delaware and sets foot on Dragonstone for the beautifully shot silent triumphant arrival. Again, any smallfolk are probably trying to just stay out of her way. 

To complain about this is to complain that you lack imagination. The show shouldn't have to take the time to film smallfolk putting fresh rushes out on the floor in the bedrooms. I'm not watching Game of Thrones to watch the janitor at Dragonstone wonder when Stannis is coming back; I'm watching to see Dany walk up that bridge with Dragon's flying overhead and take her rightful seat.

Even if there is a battle at Dragonstone and Stannis's peeps try to fight against Dany's force-it'd be a foregone conclusion they will lose. Don't waste time showing it. The closing scene was awesome and requires no suspension of disbelief. 

This X 1000.  I loved the final scene and wouldn't have enjoyed it nearly as much if we had to take time with a battle or smallfolk or anything like that.  I understand it's a chat and book readers in particular are used to much more detail and explanation, but as a TV show I don't think GOT needed to do anything more than what it did.  Worked perfectly.

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1 hour ago, cade said:

Strategically, I don't think it would matter much. She could land many other places. I'm not sure Cersei has that much wildfire to spare, and it would be extremely dangerous to transport it by sea. She may want to save all that she has left to defend King's Landing, and blow it up if she's doomed. (Btw, I edited in a correction to one of my hypotheticals in my previous post.)

Cersei has always been dismissive of Dany and her dragons. Now she's drunk with power and even more arrogant, talking about launching "a dynasty that lasts a thousand years." Jaime was trying to stress the urgency of the situation. He told her, "I'm not sure you understand the danger we're in." Even if she is scared by the forces Dany's assembled, she's not going to show that to anyone. Still, I agree that ideally it would've been best to see that moment of her learning of Dany's pending invasion, but because of how last season ended and this one began, I don't see a good spot for it.

Things went downhill for House Lannister when Tywin died and Tyrion went into exile. I doubt that Tywin or Tyrion would have left DS unoccupied after Stannis left the castle. The Lannisters could have manned the castle with forces loyal to them in order to guard invasion of KL from the sea, or at least warn KL via raven.

When Cersei went to war with the Faith and the Tyrells, she got so consumed with all that drama that a lot of things got neglected. Who was running the kingdom when Cersei got imprisoned? Tommen was just a child and the rest of the Small Council were lickspittles. 

Cersei has never really been the smart one of her family.....she just benefited from having more capable family members in positions of authority. If it wasn't for Tyrion and Tywin, Stannis would have taken KL. Now the only family member she has is her one-handed brother.

Jamie gave her the best bit of advice in episode 1 when he told her not to trust Euron. It's like the High Sparrow all over again, except that Euron is 100 times more dangerous. Euron is going to betray Cersei.

 

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^Agreed on everything except D&D love Cersei so much I fear they'll turn Euron into her lackey, but hopefully not.

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It made sense to me that it was empty, TBH. At least, concerning the show. There could have been some minor Lord holding it in the book because there was more time to create a sub plot, but I like that it was empty in the show. Not because it was easy for Dany, but because it's supposed to symbolize the devastation in Westeros. There just aren't enough people left. The Baratheons are pretty much abolished.

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