StraightFromAsshai

lust or love regarding R+L

62 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, StraightFromAsshai said:

Lust for me.

Neither.  For Rhaegar, it was him acting to fulfill a prophecy as he understood it.  He may have even had a prophetic vision, same as Dany does, about one of the three heads of the dragon being from the Stark line.

For Lyanna, it was her being kidnapped and raped at least once, and then held hostage for 9 months until she died.

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Posted (edited)

Lust is something short-lived. I believe Lyanna and Rhaegar are smarter people despite everything that happened, because to go to the middle of nowhere only for lust, it's not a good story to tell. Also, if we follow the hints, we know that when they first met, Rhaegar was probably impressed with Lyanna, she went to the lists to protect the honor of a man that couldn't do it himself. Rhaegar went out of his way to do something he was not supposed to do when he crowned Lyanna, and this tells a lot to me.

If they did what they did for something as weak as lust, there was no need for Rhaegar to say her name with his last breath, there was no need for Lyanna to be holding flowers when she died.

Ned think it was only lust in AGOT, but what Ned knows really? probably only the nature of the relationship, nothing more. Also, let's not forget, at Harrenhal, Ned didn't even had the courage to ask Ashara Dayne to dance with him, he needed Brandon to do that, when it comes to the matters of the heart, i have to say, Ned Stark is not the guy you go to ask for advice. Ned's opinion on this matter are his and only his.


What really gives me a headache here, is the prophecies. I don't think Rhaegar needed to do something with only one reason, something doesn't need to be mutually exclusive, but still...i wish we had more information by now, it's really hard to argue when we don't know what Rhaegar had in mind.

 

Edited by theMADdestScientist_

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Neither. Rhaegar was trying to fulfill prophecy above all else, and Lyanna was trying to get out of her marriage to Robert.

Keep in mind, Lyanna was probably 14 when the 22 year-old Rhaegar crowned her the QoLaB at Harrenhal. This is creepy. And it is not just creepy in real life, in modern-day western society. It is creepy to in-world characters.

SPOILER from the Arianne TWOW sample chapter:

Spoiler

“We were only kissing. I’m not going to marry him.”  Elia crossed her arms defiantly beneath her breasts. “You think I never kissed a boy before?”

“Feathers is a man.  A serving man, but still a man. It did not escape the princess that Elia was the same age she had been when she gave her maidenhead to Daemon Sand.  “I am not your mother. Kiss all the boys you want when we return to Dorne. Here and now, though . . . this is no place for kisses, Elia. Meek and mild and obedient, you said. Must I add chaste to that as well? You swore upon your father’s bones.

“I remember,” said Elia, sounding chastened. “Meek and mild and obedient. I won’t kiss him again.”

Elia Sand is acting as a stand-in for Lyanna. She is the same age Lyanna was around the time of her meeting Rhaegar, and her nickname is "Lady Lance", a moniker that would certainly fit Lyanna Stark aka the KotLT. And Arianne, our in-world character, clearly thinks that it is creepy for Feathers, a man, to be kissing Elia, who is only a young girl.

So Rhaegar was being a creep, but in his defense he was trying to fulfill prophecy. And Lyanna was probably trying to get out of her marriage to Robert, mayhaps simply by having a public affair with Rhaegar which would make her "soiled goods" so to speak. I actually think that Howland Reed's involvement with events was a classic GRRM plot-obfuscating coincidence. I think Lyanna would have entered the tournament as a mystery night regardless, because her real goal was to get the attention of Rhaegar and spark a romance, not defend the honor of HR.

But of course, Lyanna ends up at the ToJ. Was she raped? Maybe. I would give it like an 90% chance that what began as a consensual relationship, initiated by Lyanna, led eventually to Rhaegar imprisoning her and raping her until she became pregnant. And then Rhaegar gave his KG orders to burn down the ToJ (with wildfire) with Lyanna inside as a sacrifice to create a prophecy-fulfilling super-baby.

A lot of people think that Lyanna holding flower petals as she died indicates her love for Rhaegar. I think it is more likely that she committed suicide via winter rose, aka hellebore, in anticipation of her impending death by inferno.

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Put the prophecy aside for a bit.

What bothers me is no one seem to shine a light on Lyanna's part of this equation. To blame Rhaegar for any part of what happened and exclude Lyanna's part offers nothing of the full story (not that we know what that is yet!).

In what manner did she play a part in their affair, married or not? A "wild", talented noble lady still has emotions and desires. Of all the many real life ladies at court I've read about, they all have a major part to play in the dynamics of laws, politics, emotions, desires.

My answer: Love and lust. Young and full to brim of hormones and ideals.

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Posted (edited)

17 minutes ago, Weirwood Ghost said:

My answer: Love and lust. Young and full to brim of hormones and ideals.

Well, Rheagar was tall, blond and handsome :)

A lustworthy emo prince, not the lush and lecher Robert ... at least he'd sing to the girl first!

Edited by TMIFairy

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Posted (edited)

16 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

<snip>

  Reveal hidden contents

“We were only kissing. I’m not going to marry him.”  Elia crossed her arms defiantly beneath her breasts. “You think I never kissed a boy before?”

“Feathers is a man.  A serving man, but still a man. It did not escape the princess that Elia was the same age she had been when she gave her maidenhead to Daemon Sand.  “I am not your mother. Kiss all the boys you want when we return to Dorne. Here and now, though . . . this is no place for kisses, Elia. Meek and mild and obedient, you said. Must I add chaste to that as well? You swore upon your father’s bones.

“I remember,” said Elia, sounding chastened. “Meek and mild and obedient. I won’t kiss him again.”

Elia Sand is acting as a stand-in for Lyanna. She is the same age Lyanna was around the time of her meeting Rhaegar, and her nickname is "Lady Lance", a moniker that would certainly fit Lyanna Stark aka the KotLT. And Arianne, our in-world character, clearly thinks that it is creepy for Feathers, a man, to be kissing Elia, who is only a young girl.

<snip>

Lyanna was a trueborn daughter of the Lord Paramount in the North and was bethrothed to Robert, the Lord Paramount in the Stormlands, which are two kingdoms that frown upon female sexuality.

Elia is the bastard daughter of the promiscuous second prince of Dorne, which is a kingdom (principality?) that doesn't frown upon female sexuality.

These are two different women in completely different social standings (highborn and baseborn) from two different countries with completely different values. Sure, they both are similar in that they are not traditionally feminine, but one has a very important duty (marry a lord and create an alliance) and image to keep for not just herself, but also her family, while the other doesn't.

Say what you will about Lyanna, but I believe that despite her being untraditionally feminine, she is still loyal to her family and would marry Robert because she was told.

 

But also, what annoys me about some of the people on these forums is that just because a female character is not traditionally feminine, that means that she is promiscuous or at least, has had one sexual partner. Just because Lyanna wasn't traditional, that doesn't mean that she would go out and sleep with Rhaegar.

Edited by Vaedys Targaryen

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2 hours ago, Weirwood Ghost said:

Put the prophecy aside for a bit.

What bothers me is no one seem to shine a light on Lyanna's part of this equation. To blame Rhaegar for any part of what happened and exclude Lyanna's part offers nothing of the full story (not that we know what that is yet!).

In what manner did she play a part in their affair, married or not? A "wild", talented noble lady still has emotions and desires. Of all the many real life ladies at court I've read about, they all have a major part to play in the dynamics of laws, politics, emotions, desires.

My answer: Love and lust. Young and full to brim of hormones and ideals.

OK.  Put the prophecy aside.

Rhaegar, the Crown Prince, with an armed guard, accosts a noble woman traveling to her home, in the proverbial middle of nowhere (e.g. on the road, not at Winterfell or anything).  The next data point we have is that said woman is pregnant and under armed guard in a remote fortress thousands of miles from where she was taken.

There isn't one shred of evidence that Lyanna encouraged or even wanted Rhaegar's attentions.  All we know is that she is being kept in the Tower of Joy by armed men, that Rhaegar got her pregnant, and that none of this was "supposed" to happen.

All of that screams abduction and rape.  Even if Lyanna is interested in Rhaegar sexually or romantically, she's still being raped, because she doesn't have the option to leave.  We don't have a single example of a highborn woman running off with another man.  Mathis Rowan's daughter is caught with Dareon (which may or may not be rape), and Lynesse Hightower abandons Jorah (once they're in exile).  But nothing like what this would entail.

Until we have any further information, the default has to be that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her at swordpoint so he could get his third head of the dragon.  Anything else is victim blaming of the worst kind.

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8 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

OK.  Put the prophecy aside.

Rhaegar, the Crown Prince, with an armed guard, accosts a noble woman traveling to her home, in the proverbial middle of nowhere (e.g. on the road, not at Winterfell or anything).  The next data point we have is that said woman is pregnant and under armed guard in a remote fortress thousands of miles from where she was taken.

There isn't one shred of evidence that Lyanna encouraged or even wanted Rhaegar's attentions.  All we know is that she is being kept in the Tower of Joy by armed men, that Rhaegar got her pregnant, and that none of this was "supposed" to happen.

All of that screams abduction and rape.  Even if Lyanna is interested in Rhaegar sexually or romantically, she's still being raped, because she doesn't have the option to leave.  We don't have a single example of a highborn woman running off with another man.  Mathis Rowan's daughter is caught with Dareon (which may or may not be rape), and Lynesse Hightower abandons Jorah (once they're in exile).  But nothing like what this would entail.

Until we have any further information, the default has to be that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her at swordpoint so he could get his third head of the dragon.  Anything else is victim blaming of the worst kind.

The main problem I have with "Rhaegar is a rapist" is that Ned's attitude towards him is not that of someone whose sister was raped for months by the guy.  I think he is privy to facts that we (and Robert) are not.  It may be that Benjen or Ashara Dayne (if still alive) know something.  

I do think that prophecy was involved, and that Lyanna was aware of it, and may have gone willingly, or at lest without much of a fight.  I find it hard to believe that Rhaegar, who was by all accounts a pretty decent guy (certainly not a precursor to Ramsay) would kidnap a daughter of a great lord without some sort of damn good reason, at least from his point of view.  I expect that we will get more facts on this that will shed some light on it, but we will never get a definitive account of what happened.

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9 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Lyanna was a trueborn daughter of the Lord Paramount in the North and was bethrothed to Robert, the Lord Paramount in the Stormlands, which are two kingdoms that frown upon female sexuality.

Elia is the bastard daughter of the promiscuous second prince of Dorne, which is a kingdom (principality?) that doesn't frown upon female sexuality.

These are two different women in completely different social standings (highborn and baseborn) from two different countries with completely different values. Sure, they both are similar in that they are not traditionally feminine, but one has a very important duty (marry a lord and create an alliance) and image to keep for not just herself, but also her family, while the other doesn't.

I think you completely missed my main point, which was: the age difference between Rhaegar and Lyanna is creepy, so any notion of an innocent and sincere mutual romance is smashed by that age difference. Imagine a 22-year-old male friend of yours in modern America leaving his wife to elope with a 14-year-old. Does that sound like love? Not to me. That sounds creepy as shit to me. It sounds like the 22-year-old is taking advantage of the young girl. And lucky for us, GRRM has finally written a scene in TWOW with a similar relationship (Elia and Feathers) and had one of the characters (Arianne) comment on their age difference, showing that the in-world characters have a similar view to people in real life on this point. Arianne objects to Elia kissing a man, Feathers, but she says that Elia can kiss all the boys she wants when they get back home. Elia is a girl, not a grown and mature woman. It is creepy for Feathers to be kissing her.

Ironically though, it appears that Elia is the one taking advantage of Feathers for espionage purposes. Similarly, Lyanna probably had her own motives for her part in the R+L relationship, and she was probably not abducted by force, at least initially. It seems likely that once at the ToJ she would have been kept captive for the sole purpose of being a baby-maker, but even in this case it is possible that she didn't know she was a captive until Rhaegar left without her, meaning she may have never been raped even if she was a prisoner once she became pregnant.

10 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Say what you will about Lyanna, but I believe that despite her being untraditionally feminine, she is still loyal to her family and would marry Robert because she was told.

But also, what annoys me about some of the people on these forums is that just because a female character is not traditionally feminine, that means that she is promiscuous or at least, has had one sexual partner. Just because Lyanna wasn't traditional, that doesn't mean that she would go out and sleep with Rhaegar.

WOW, that's a bit insensitive to an entire gender. :mellow:

First off, Lyanna would probably not marry Robert just because she was told. Let's see how a similar Stark female, Arya, feels about the notion of marriage. From AGOT:

Quote

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there.

And having sex with one person is not "promiscuous". She would assume that a 14-year-old Lyanna was possibly thinking about having sex and would want to actually have a choice in her sexual partner? YES, because women are human beings. She would want to sleep with Rhaegar because it gives her the opportunity to get out of her betrothal to Robert, and possibly also because she was attracted to him. That doesn't make Lyanna promiscuous. It makes her a young woman who wants some agency in her own life.

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I just made a post (very long) with the theories concerning R and L, and my opinion is... neither. Or maybe both, but neither was reason for them to disappear together.

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I think it only came to love AFTER they disappeared together. Before this, it was probably just attraction and respect for one another. But to spend nearly a year together in an isolated area with no one to interrupt could lead to R+L falling in love. The motive for the disappearance did not have to be because of love though; perhaps Rhaegar needed her to come with him to be a second wife to give him another baby, and Lyanna wanted to get out of her wedding to Robert - so they both had advantages of disappearing. Only when they were on the road together would it have to any love.

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16 hours ago, Nevets said:

The main problem I have with "Rhaegar is a rapist" is that Ned's attitude towards him is not that of someone whose sister was raped for months by the guy.  I think he is privy to facts that we (and Robert) are not.  It may be that Benjen or Ashara Dayne (if still alive) know something.  

I do think that prophecy was involved, and that Lyanna was aware of it, and may have gone willingly, or at lest without much of a fight.  I find it hard to believe that Rhaegar, who was by all accounts a pretty decent guy (certainly not a precursor to Ramsay) would kidnap a daughter of a great lord without some sort of damn good reason, at least from his point of view.  I expect that we will get more facts on this that will shed some light on it, but we will never get a definitive account of what happened.

Wait, when do we get Ned's opinion on Rhaegar?  All we know is that he doesn't want to punish innocent Targaryen children, IIRC.  And given that Rhaegar is almost certainly the father of Ned's nephew, I can see why his opinion may have softened.  16 years of raising the guy's kid might mellow bitterness.

And how anyone thinks Rhaegar is a decent guy is beyond me.  He violates every social norm by absconding with a major bannerman's fiance.  He dishonors his own wife in the process.  Even IF Lyanna went willingly, it still makes Rhaegar a very skeezy guy (who, by the way, comes back to defend his father, who has spent the last few months burning innocent people alive and calling for the heads of children).

Whatever her attitude, Lyanna had to be aware that the threat of force was backing up any "request" made by Rhaegar.  There can be no consent at the tip of a sword.  This cannot be stressed enough.  Whether she went with him willingly or not, Lyanna is a prisoner by the time Ned gets to the Tower of Joy, which strongly implies that she wasn't a particularly willing participant in the first place.  Maybe she thought running off for a fling with the Crown Prince was a good idea - but the fact that she is then imprisoned casts an ugly light on everything that came before.

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On 20/07/2017 at 11:41 AM, cpg2016 said:

Wait, when do we get Ned's opinion on Rhaegar?  All we know is that he doesn't want to punish innocent Targaryen children, IIRC.  And given that Rhaegar is almost certainly the father of Ned's nephew, I can see why his opinion may have softened.  16 years of raising the guy's kid might mellow bitterness.

And how anyone thinks Rhaegar is a decent guy is beyond me.  He violates every social norm by absconding with a major bannerman's fiance.  He dishonors his own wife in the process.  Even IF Lyanna went willingly, it still makes Rhaegar a very skeezy guy (who, by the way, comes back to defend his father, who has spent the last few months burning innocent people alive and calling for the heads of children).

Whatever her attitude, Lyanna had to be aware that the threat of force was backing up any "request" made by Rhaegar.  There can be no consent at the tip of a sword.  This cannot be stressed enough.  Whether she went with him willingly or not, Lyanna is a prisoner by the time Ned gets to the Tower of Joy, which strongly implies that she wasn't a particularly willing participant in the first place.  Maybe she thought running off for a fling with the Crown Prince was a good idea - but the fact that she is then imprisoned casts an ugly light on everything that came before.

Ned still have ill feeling against Jaime Lannister.

Why everyone thinks Rhaegar is not a decent guy is beyond me. There is no proof of kidnapping or elopement, only biased opinions.

Robert, of course, thinks it was kidnapping and raping. It fits his character. Also, the fact that Rhaegar took Lyanna at swordpoint, meaning there was a fight. I would believe in this too if I were Robert.

Problem is that Brandon found out too early and couldn't control his temper, his wolf blood. Had he waited or searched for Lyanna right away instead of going face King Aerys, things might have been different.

I believe Lyanna was rescued from Aerys, by Rhaegar. The time was no time for elopement or kidnapping since Rhaegar was trying to depose Aerys.

I know it might sound wrong, but if you try to think about all the aspects of their disappearance, paying attention to all details, not only from the first book but also from other books, including TWOIAF, you might change your mind.

 

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On 7/18/2017 at 1:34 PM, StraightFromAsshai said:

lust or love regarding R+L.

Neither. It was a requirement of prophecy.

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On 7/18/2017 at 1:34 PM, StraightFromAsshai said:

Lust for me.

Lust, love, the fulfilling of prophecy and a hope to save the world  

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1 hour ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Why everyone thinks Rhaegar is not a decent guy is beyond me. There is no proof of kidnapping or elopement, only biased opinions.

Are you reading the same novels?  Lets ignore what happened to Lyanna.

Rhaegar ran off with another woman and cheated on his wife.  Definitely the actions of a good guy, right?

And then, after sparking a major rebellion by mistreating his feudal vassals (whether or not Lyanna is on board with everything, Rhaegar still needs to keep it in his pants), he comes back to Kings Landing to fight for his father!  That is an explicit statement of support for everything Aerys did.  Rhaegar believes that Aerys had the right to burn Rickard and Brandon alive, had the right to demand the execution of Robert and Ned, all that.  Rhaegar is not a decent person.  He may not be cruel and vicious and insane like Aerys, but his attitude is that he can do what he wants, when he wants, to whomever he wants, and is justified in doing so.  That is not a "decent guy".

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1 hour ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Why everyone thinks Rhaegar is not a decent guy is beyond me. There is no proof of kidnapping or elopement, only biased opinions.

A lot of this, I think, depends on Westerosi age gaps. If I am not mistaken the "abduction" was in 282 making Rhaegar 23 and Lyanna 16. THat is a pretty big age gap for 2017 RL but maybe not so much for Westeros. I really would need some precedent for the age gap. That said, the problem with Rhaegar and what, I believe, makes him less sympathetic is that there really is no good option. It is either the case that 1) He abducted Lyanna or 2) That he ran off with her by her own free will. There is no third option.

So if it is option 1 then we can immediately say that Rhaegar is a total jerk. Not much room to argue it. If the crown prince kidnapped the daughter of one major bannerman who was betrothed to another major bannerman, took her to dorne, raped her until she was pregnant then there is no possible reason from love to prophecy or anything else that makes him anything other than a terrible person. So let us concentrate on numero 2.

Let's say that R and L had something. Whatever it was. For him fulfilment of prophecy for her love of handsome emo prince, mutual love, mutual prophecy...whatever.....and she went willingly. Ok So Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne pick her up, she jumps on horseback and goes with them. Then Rhaegar is a terrible person too. This is a noblewoman of the highest birth from one of the oldest families who he is dishonoring. She is betrothed to one of his most important bannermen, the lord of a house created by his own Ancestor Aegon, and doing it fully aware that it is a horrible insult to House Baratheon, a horrible insult to House Stark, a horrible insult to House Martell, a HUGE blemish on the already damaged (by the mad king) face on his own house and on a personal level is absolutely fatal to the reputation of Lyanna -- and Rhaegar was old enough, wise enough and politically aware enough to know exactly how big of a deal this was.

So whether Rhaegar abducted her and forced her against her will or followed his heart against good common sense, or let a prophecy come before any semblance of honor, decency, common sense or duty then Rhaegar is really a total dickweed. Really, there is no way to lay this situation out, no amount of variables which can be altered no possible way things happened that make Rhaegar anything other than an absolutely abysmal human being.

1 hour ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

I believe Lyanna was rescued from Aerys, by Rhaegar.

Even if this is true (and, for what it is worth I think it is at least AS likely as anything else) then Rhaegar rescuing her and delivering her to Storms End or to Winterfell or even to Sunspear or Starfall and sending a raven to Ned or Robert would have absolutely solidified his position, made clear that he isn't of the same cloth as Aerys (dollars to doughnuts that rescuing Lyanna and getting her safely back to Ned would ensured Ned never calling his banners against the crown so long as Aerys was off the throne) and avoided the entire situation. 

Even if he rescued her from Aerys and even if in that rescue (or at the tourney) he fell madly in love with her, and even if that love was absolutely returned by Lyanna, running off with her was an absolutely horrendous decision and he knew better and, for that matter, so did Arthur Dayne. 

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