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lust or love regarding R+L


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On 8/11/2017 at 10:57 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There is only one correct answer: too soon to tell.

We don't know what either of them felt for the other, and there's nowhere near enough text to go on.

GRRM has said we'll get all the info about RR and that should include the scoop on Rhae Rhae and Lya.

I am on board with this.  What we have is very fragmentary and is too little to really form any sort of informed opinion.

GRRM has also said that what happened between Lyanna and rhaegar will remain somewhat of a mystery, in that we will get multiple and somewhat contradictory accounts, and will have to make up our minds as to what really happened.

There are several individuals who are or may be still alive who could potentially shed light on the situation: Howland Reed (obviously), Benjen Stark, Ashara Dayne, Richard Lonmouth, and Wylla the wet nurse come to mind.

For myself, I am inclined to think that Rhaegar was influenced by prophecy simply because the other alternatives make even less sense.  He is smart enough to know that running off with the daughter of a high-level lord is going to cause serious problems, so he would have to have (at lest in his own mind) a damn good reason.  Helping Lyanna elope doesn't qualify.  As for Lyanna, her main objection to Robert was that he would cheat on her.  Going off with a married man hardly makes sense in that light.  Hopefully, we will get more information in the future, and can at least make more informed guesses.

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On 8/14/2017 at 7:22 AM, Queen of Procrastination said:

I guess he is refering to the poem "Fire and Ice" by Robert Frost. GRRM has said that it was one of the things which caused him to name the series "A Song of ice and Fire. 

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html?spref=tw

 

Ah, thank you.

If that's the case, I will submit that taking a title from a poem does not necessarily mean you're going to follow what's in the poem. Some turns of phrase are just too awesome not to use. Poems are an excellent source of title inspiration. 

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On 13/08/2017 at 3:42 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Whoa. Slow down there. He is finishing the books. I don't know if you've ever written anything longer than a check, but this kind of story takes a ton of time to do properly. Just because he's not writing fast enough for your liking doesn't mean he's not working.

I know it takes time, and yes, I have written many things longer than a check since I am a lawyer, thank you for you rude words. It takes time and sometimes I wonder if he will finish them because he wants them to be perfect, and doesn't want more people complaining about his books like some complain about the last two. There are too many characters and he has to present a good explanation for the prince and the lady love story, one that makes sense with the what has been written about them on previous books.

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On 14/08/2017 at 10:13 AM, YOVMO said:

100% agree. I am on team kidnap here. At the very most I can say that he kidnapped her with words and stories of prophecy and not by sword point. I don't buy love or elopement. Either way, the start of this discussion, I believe, was just my assentation that Rhaegar was a shitty person regardless of which option it was. Even if you are 100% right through and through Rhaegar is still a dick

 

Really? Do you think a girl like Lyanna would believe in stories and prophecies and most of all, that they had enough time at the tourney to talk about those things?

If I am right, and I can be very wrong, I know, Rhaegar rescued Lyanna from his father, Aerys, who had discovered she was connected with the mysterious knight, declared a traitor by the king. If he rescued her from Aerys, he is not a dick, I suppose. But haters must be haters and nothing I or anyone else think will change your mind. Having an open mind about book characters have always made reading books more enjoyable to me. You might try it one day.

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1 hour ago, Jon Snow Nothing said:

I know it takes time, and yes, I have written many things longer than a check since I am a lawyer, thank you for you rude words. It takes time and sometimes I wonder if he will finish them because he wants them to be perfect, and doesn't want more people complaining about his books like some complain about the last two. There are too many characters and he has to present a good explanation for the prince and the lady love story, one that makes sense with the what has been written about them on previous books.

I wasn't rude, I was flippant. But you're welcome anyway.

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On 19.8.2017 at 0:11 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Ah, thank you.

If that's the case, I will submit that taking a title from a poem does not necessarily mean you're going to follow what's in the poem. Some turns of phrase are just too awesome not to use. Poems are an excellent source of title inspiration. 

I agree. Moreover, GRRM said that the title has other meanings as well. I wouldn't want to speculate on the nature of Rhaegar's and Lyanna's relationship based on the poem. I also agree with your previous comment that it's too soon to tell what kind of relationship they had. 

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Quote

A lot of people think that Lyanna holding flower petals as she died indicates her love for Rhaegar. I think it is more likely that she committed suicide via winter rose, aka hellebore, in anticipation of her impending death by inferno.

@40 Thousand Skeletons

I'm not sure if Lyanna was going to be burned, I just haven't looked into that way as of yet, but I do agree that Hellebore is the blue winter rose, which means poison or death, and relates to George's idea of the war of the "roses" inspiration... which is also another indication that the HotU blue rose smelling sweet does not mean good/romantic things for Daenerys. 

I just happened to be somewhere yesterday and came across a handmade version of this picture, which is very Patchface in nature, but also brings the Hellebore/ blue winter rose into it. 

http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/480-the-fools-cap-map-of-the-world

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6 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

@40 Thousand Skeletons

I'm not sure if Lyanna was going to be burned, I just haven't looked into that way as of yet, but I do agree that Hellebore is the blue winter rose, which means poison or death, and relates to George's idea of the war of the "roses" inspiration... which is also another indication that the HotU blue rose smelling sweet does not mean good/romantic things for Daenerys. 

I just happened to be somewhere yesterday and came across a handmade version of this picture, which is very Patchface in nature, but also brings the Hellebore/ blue winter rose into it. 

http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/480-the-fools-cap-map-of-the-world

I'm definitely not positive on the burning aspect. Mainly it would explain the missing wildfire, the fight between Ned and the KG, and how Ned brought down the ToJ afterward without construction equipment. But the main clue as to why I think she committed suicide via winter rose is the glaring ellipsis in this quote from Ned:

Quote

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was… fond of flowers."

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/22/2017 at 9:18 PM, Jon Snow Nothing said:

Really? Do you think a girl like Lyanna would believe in stories and prophecies and most of all, that they had enough time at the tourney to talk about those things?

If I am right, and I can be very wrong, I know, Rhaegar rescued Lyanna from his father, Aerys, who had discovered she was connected with the mysterious knight, declared a traitor by the king. If he rescued her from Aerys, he is not a dick, I suppose. But haters must be haters and nothing I or anyone else think will change your mind. Having an open mind about book characters have always made reading books more enjoyable to me. You might try it one day.

Woah, we can dial it back a notch or two. We are all here discussing a book series with a level of detail where there is a fair assumption that everyone has been reading with an open mind.

While I don't think the rescue idea is all bad, it has huge flaws which would require explaining.

 

again, assuming you are right and R recused L from ayers...why take her to the ToJ in Dorne. If he wanted to rescue her and was not either a dick or a moron his move would have been to bring her North to Winterfell and give her to Lord Rickard or bring her to Storm's End where her bethrothed was.

 

rhaegar is trying to foster alliances. By taking her to the TOJ he breaks a marriage betrothal. This is serious business in westeros. This is what sparked the freaking red wedding. 

 

If it was a rescue it was a rescue that would 1) totally destroy the crowns relationship with the Lord of Storms End 2) totally destroy the crowns relationship with Winterfell and the North 3) probably destroy the crowns relation with the Riverlands who had a newly formed alliance with the Starks 4) totally destroy the crowns relationship with the Vale and 5) probably damage the crowns relationship with Dorne.

 

if Rhaegar rescued lyanna it was the worst rescue in history and in one shot did more damage to the crown that Aryes' years of madness.

saying anything other than rhaegar was either a total dick or a total idiot is an act of shoe Horning that is too big for even me and I'm a holder of a lot of HUGE tinfoil theories 

.

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42 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

saying anything other than rhaegar was either a total dick or a total idiot is an act of shoe Horning that is too big for even me and I'm a holder of a lot of HUGE tinfoil theories 

Well that's gratifying.  Because I think Ned was the Mystery Knight.  Who is more steeped in 'honor' than Ned especially since he was fostered atop the Giant's Lance at the Eyrie with their words:  High as Honor.  

I think by presenting Lyanna with the Queen of Beauty's laurel from the end of his own lance that Rhaegar is effectively unmasking Ned.  

Ned not only reveals that no love was involved, he also dreamed that he himself reached for the Champion's Crown (taking part in the tournament).

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV
Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Instead of making an impression on Ashara, Aerys was wroth.  No doubt Lyanna was questioned and covered for Ned by claiming to know nothing.

There was no love or lust on Rhaegar's part and no kidnapping.  Lyanna was most likely taken back to the Vale for her protection and sent into hiding with Howland Reed once Brandon was detained at KL.  He mentions nothing about kidnapping or Lyanna at this point.  This happens after Brandon is detained.   This pits Rhaegar against Robert and has Vary's/Aerys fingerprints all over it.  Brandon is lured to KL so he can 'speak treason' in order to be arrested.  Barristan Selmy has seen this sort of thing before:
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Queensguard

He did not wish to be conspicuous, so when he was finished with his supper he changed out of his court clothes, trading the white cloak of the Queensguard for a hooded brown traveler's cloak such as any common man might wear. He kept his sword and dagger. This could still be some trap. He had little trust in Hizdahr and less in Reznak mo Reznak. The perfumed seneschal could well be part of this, trying to lure him into a secret meeting so he could sweep up him and Skahaz both and charge them with conspiring against the king. If the Shavepate speaks treason, he will leave me no choice but to arrest him. Hizdahr is my queen's consort, however little I may like it. My duty is to him, not Skahaz.

 

Rhaegar is not at KL of course because he is not part of this plot.  He's elsewhere trying to secure the safety of his own son.  Lyanna's goes off the radar and this too is used against Rhaegar because like Selmy, most people project some romantic motivation on Rhaegar's actions at the Tourney and this too can be used to further the plot. 

When Ned leaves the Vale to call his banners; he goes first to Greywater Watch where Lyanna has given birth and lays dying.  Then he procures a nursemaid Wylla and takes them both to Winterfell.

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First allow me to say that I am thoroughly impressed with this response. Well done. You are quite right, I am working under the assumption that Rhaegar was acting rationally and while it is possible that he is acting rationally it is also totally believable he was not either due to some sense of urgency regarding prophecy or maybe early stages of what eventually becomes full blown Mad King craziness...certainly Areys was charming and not all nutso when he was young. If we make the argument that Rhaegar was starting to show signs of craziness that allowed him to justify his actions to himself despite them not making good logical sense then there might be a third alternative to dick or dumb.

 

What I can't get behind, however, is simply that Rhaegar had no idea of how the north worked. While it is true that the north is an isolationist kingdom and had very little actually to do with the Targs since the Pact of Ice and Fire in 129 AC they weren't SO mysterious that Rhaegar, if in his right mind, wouldn't think that running off with the already betrothed  daughter of the Lord of Winterfell wasn't going to cause a diplomatic disaster.

 

Another thing you mention that I had not yet considered was the fact that it was not the "kidnap" of Lyanna that started Robert's Rebellion...it may be what got the ball rolling but until Aryes arrested Rickard and Brandon it was a cold war. While we can argue for days over whether or not breaking a marriage contract would be a death blow to a family alliance, there is no one that would argue that arresting, torturing and executing a Great Lord and his heir would ever allow for any kind of peace after.

 

So I will allow that I can see the possibility of your point though I am not 100% convinced which is some significant movement for me :)  If it is the case that Rhaegar, for whatever reason, was not thinking rationally/logically/sanely, then we can say it is possible that there is an alternative to him being an idiot or him being a real jerkface.

 

If he was a little but loopy we can see how he might think that his child with Lyanna would be the basis of an alliance with the North. There is no way he could ever believe, however, that then Lord Robert would ever make peace. He may have misjudged the North, but the Stormlord was known very well for his temper. That said, the marcher lords were never going to love rhaegar and his half dornish kids anyway and if he pulled off the alliance with the north, while Robert may have hated him for life, between Ned and Jon Arryn he probably could have been kept in line.

On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 4:50 AM, devilish said:

@Yovmo

You’re making two powerful assumptions here
a-    He was acting rationally
b-    Rhaegar had a good idea of how the North works

 

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46 minutes ago, LynnS said:

  Because I think Ned was the Mystery Knight

I had never considered Ned as a candidate for mystery knight. I will think this through. I have always found it odd, the whole mystery knight thing, mostly because northerners aren't particularly known for their jousting. While the evidence isn't very strong, I have always thought that Ashara Dayne was a far more likely candidate than any of the starks only because she probably would have been trained in lance. It is no easy thing to grab a lance with little or no training and beat trained competitors. I believe it is said that even Robert Baratheon, obviously a great warrior, never really distinguished himself at the Joust and he was a trained and anointed knight so he would have absolutely been given instruction in the joust.

 

54 minutes ago, LynnS said:

When Ned leaves the Vale to call his banners; he goes first to Greywater Watch where Lyanna has given birth and lays dying.  Then he procures a nursemaid Wylla and takes them both to Winterfell

Is your claim here that Lyanna gives birth in Greywater Watch and not the Tower of Joy? What of the battle outside the tower? did that really happen? Did ned return the sword? This claim seems to open far more questions than it answers

 

 

All in all I think your Ned as knight of the laughing tree is interesting but ultimately unsatisfying. We have no evidence that Ned has ever been trained with a lance. I feel it is out of character for Ned to do anything secretly and, further, to put on a mask, enter a joust as a mystery knight etc is a bold move...a boldness that would have been totally out of character for Ned. The mystery knight is said to be small of stature which also seems to be a point against Ned here....Ned may not be huge like Robert or the Hound but in no way is he a man of such small stature that it would be noted.

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2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I believe it is said that even Robert Baratheon, obviously a great warrior, never really distinguished himself at the Joust and he was a trained and anointed knight so he would have absolutely been given instruction in the joust.

Are we so sure that Ned was never trained in the joust by Jon Arryn's master at arms?  That seems unlikely to me and a neglect of his duties.  As you point out; someone's size and strength doesn't necessarily make them good or effective in the joust.  The smaller knight has show his talent.  As to the identity; that must be inferred.  Since the lesson is about honor that points to Ned who's entire character is steeped in his honor.  Something he no doubt learned from Jon Arryn and the words of his house.  The winner of the tourney receives the champions crown which they can award to the QoLaB as they see fit.   Ned dreams that he is reaching for the Champion's Crown. Why?

Ned has a romantic interest in Ashara and so like Selmy he may wish to impress her and express his intentions this way.  A shy man may be a little braver in a mask as mystery knight.  Mystery Knights are not so unusual at tourney's except for Aery's wroth, things may have been different. 

Barristan Selmy also points out that Rhaegar wasn't always the winner or the best in a joust.  Shouldn't he have been bested by Arthur Dayne or even Selmy himself?  You win some and you lose some.   And so the knights of the dishonored squires lost to a smaller man in patchwork armor.  I think that's more likely to be Ned than Lyanna.

Were the three knights in any fit condition to joust or were they as unruly as their squires up wenching and drinking all night? :D 

Quote

I feel it is out of character for Ned to do anything secretly

Absolutely everything about Jon and Lyanna is a a secret.
 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.

 

Even on Robert's deathbed, Ned still can't tell him the truth.  

 

 

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56 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Are we so sure that Ned was never trained in the joust by Jon Arryn's master at arms?  That seems unlikely to me and a neglect of his duties.  As you point out; someone's size and strength doesn't necessarily make them good or effective in the joust.  The smaller knight has show his talent. 


 

It is fair enough to assume that while at the Vale there was some lance training for Ned, but it is also fair to assume, I would think, that it would have played a very small role (as an adherent of the old gods he was never going to be a knight) and that he never particularly excelled at it. As far as I can tell Ned never took part in a single tourney. Having the skill to take on 3 trained squires who specifically were interested in jousting doesn't seem right. Also, the knight of the laughing tree was said to be of small stature and a fully armored Ned Stark may not have been huge but I doubt one would remark he is small.

56 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

As to the identity; that must be inferred.  Since the lesson is about honor that points to Ned who's entire character is steeped in his honor.  Something he no doubt learned from Jon Arryn and the words of his house.  The winner of the tourney receives the champions crown which they can award to the QoLaB as they see fit.   Ned dreams that he is reaching for the Champion's Crown. Why?

Here what you says makes great sense. It is a story about honor so Ned is, as you point out, the natural choice and the Arryn words help this case. Could be red hering. As for Ned reaching for the champions crown, I do not have an answer but think it is a very interesting question and would like sometime to think about that before I say what I make of it.

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I think that's more likely to be Ned than Lyanna.

While I agree that it probably is not Lyanna I still am having a hard time seeing it as Ned. But you do make some compelling claims and I will meditate on it. Just because my first instinct says it is wrong doesn't mean that after I think of it I won't come around and I think you have made a case worthy of thinking through. Heck! I used to think silly things like R+L=J

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17 hours ago, YOVMO said:

First allow me to say that I am thoroughly impressed with this response. Well done. You are quite right, I am working under the assumption that Rhaegar was acting rationally and while it is possible that he is acting rationally it is also totally believable he was not either due to some sense of urgency regarding prophecy or maybe early stages of what eventually becomes full blown Mad King craziness...certainly Areys was charming and not all nutso when he was young. If we make the argument that Rhaegar was starting to show signs of craziness that allowed him to justify his actions to himself despite them not making good logical sense then there might be a third alternative to dick or dumb.

 

What I can't get behind, however, is simply that Rhaegar had no idea of how the north worked. While it is true that the north is an isolationist kingdom and had very little actually to do with the Targs since the Pact of Ice and Fire in 129 AC they weren't SO mysterious that Rhaegar, if in his right mind, wouldn't think that running off with the already betrothed  daughter of the Lord of Winterfell wasn't going to cause a diplomatic disaster.

 

Another thing you mention that I had not yet considered was the fact that it was not the "kidnap" of Lyanna that started Robert's Rebellion...it may be what got the ball rolling but until Aryes arrested Rickard and Brandon it was a cold war. While we can argue for days over whether or not breaking a marriage contract would be a death blow to a family alliance, there is no one that would argue that arresting, torturing and executing a Great Lord and his heir would ever allow for any kind of peace after.

 

So I will allow that I can see the possibility of your point though I am not 100% convinced which is some significant movement for me :)  If it is the case that Rhaegar, for whatever reason, was not thinking rationally/logically/sanely, then we can say it is possible that there is an alternative to him being an idiot or him being a real jerkface.

 

If he was a little but loopy we can see how he might think that his child with Lyanna would be the basis of an alliance with the North. There is no way he could ever believe, however, that then Lord Robert would ever make peace. He may have misjudged the North, but the Stormlord was known very well for his temper. That said, the marcher lords were never going to love rhaegar and his half dornish kids anyway and if he pulled off the alliance with the north, while Robert may have hated him for life, between Ned and Jon Arryn he probably could have been kept in line.

 

In her visions Danny sees Rhaegar speaking to Elia and telling her that Aegon was the prince that was promised. Meanwhile Aemon believed that that prince was Rhaegar, something Im pretty sure the old Targ has shared with the crown prince. So if you ask me, I think that the prophecy of the prince to come has little to do with it. It might have affected the return of dragons (3 heads of the dragon) but not the prince that was promised.

So why did Rhaegar do it?

First of all we need to analyse how terrible Rhaegar’s crime were. According to Robert, the crown prince kidnapped Lyanna. That is indeed terrible. However, there’s nothing in the books that suggest that. Quite contrary, Ned goes quite mild when describing Rhaegar. Which makes me wonder, why the need of such revision of history?

The only possible conclusion is that Rhaegar didn’t kidnap Lyanna but she simply went with him out of her own will. Assuming that is indeed the truth then how terrible that is? To answer to that particular question then we might consider shifting our attention to Brandon Stark and Robert Baratheon. After all both had consensual sex with girls of high nobility (Ryswell and Florent) and both got away with it. The Targs themselves had quite a history with paramours. Aegon the unworthy had quite a collection which included a Blackwood and a Bracken. No one rebelled because of it. Even frigging LF the least of all Lords was able to have sex with Lysa and get away with it. You expect Hoster to make sure that the man who soiled his prized asset would lose his head. It wasn’t the case

So to answer that particular question, Rhaegar may have caused a diplomatic upset but he didn’t commit a crime. The books kind of back that. In fact, no one called the banners because of Lyanna. They didn’t even called the banners when Brandon went to KL threatening the crown prince either. Robert’s erm actually Jon Arryn’s rebellion started when Aerys expected Jon to break guest rights and execute two innocent people who were under his protection. That’s something Jon couldn’t do.

So what caused Rhaegar to cause this diplomatic upset? We need to take in consideration some events that happened during that particular period

  1. The deteriorating relationship between Tywin and Aerys

  2. The defiance of Duskendale

  3. Rhaegar’s marriage to Elia

  4. Aerys shunning Rhaenys as she smell too Dornish

  5. Aerys obsession with Viserys

  6. The tournament of Harrenhal

  7. Rhaegar’s fleeing with Lyanna

All are closely knit to one another. In Duskendale, Rhaegar was basically crowned by Tywin who endorsed him as a better king to Aerys and urged the royalists to sack the city in total disregard of Aerys safety. That plan was countered by Selmy who went full Rambo and rescued a broken Aerys from sure death.

That had a devastating effect on the king. Not only he was taken hostage by his own subjects but he must felt betrayed by the very people he trusted the most. Tywin was Aerys friend, a man, Aerys appointed as HOTK. Rhaegar on the other hand was his son and heir. How could they possibly agree with the sacking of Duskendale? Why didn’t Rhaegar turned down such endorsement?

The result to that was pretty clear. Aerys ordered Steffon to go to Essos and find some random girl from Valyrian descend. That was meant to punish Tywin who was desperate to see Cersei marrying Rhaegar and to weaken the crown prince. Ultimately Aerys had to give his go ahead to Rhaegar’s marriage to Elia a physically weak girl with question marks around her whether she can produce any heirs and whose house was unbeatable in Dorne but pretty weak when stepping outside of it.

Elia was able to produce two children, one of which a heir. Yet Aegon never liked them. Instead he grew obsessed with Viserys, which of course is bad news for Rhaegar especially considering Aerys descend to violence and madness. We all know that the only way, Aerys golden boy could inherit the crown was to eliminate both Rhaegar and the prince that was promised.

So here we are at Harrenhal, a tourney meant for Rhaegar to raise allies against the crown. But to Rhaegar’s despair Aerys finds out, he gatecrash the tourney and Rhaegar is left with nothing apart from the admirations of the Stark girl (whose agenda was to find somebody whose powerful enough to break her future marriage to Robert). That’s a very dangerous situation for Rhaegar to be in. If someone spills the beans regarding the truth about Harrenhal then Rhaegar and possibly his family will be fried meat. Dorne alone won’t be able to stop that.

As said, the North is a strange land for the Southerners but one thing is certain. They do love family. That was clear to Rhaegar when he crowned Lyanna lady of beauty. If the Starks can go ballistic on such minor manner then imagine what they would do if let say, Lyanna’s baby is threatened by Aerys.

By escaping with Lyanna, Rhaegar achieved two things.

  1. He shifted the attention from Harrenhal’s scandal to Lyanna

  2. He hoped to bully himself into a possible alliance between the crown prince and the Starks. Once Lyanna is pregnant, Rhaegar and the Stark’s fate were interwined whether Rickard liked it or not.

     

 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, devilish said:

In her visions Danny sees Rhaegar speaking to Elia and telling her that Aegon was the prince that was promised. Meanwhile Aemon believed that that prince was Rhaegar, something Im pretty sure the old Targ has shared with the crown prince. So if you ask me, I think that the prophecy of the prince to come has little to do with it. It might have affected the return of dragons (3 heads of the dragon) but not the prince that was promised.


 

You do not disappoint devilish!

 

Ok, let's take prophecy of the prince out.

 

8 hours ago, devilish said:

So why did Rhaegar do it?

First of all we need to analyse how terrible Rhaegar’s crime were. According to Robert, the crown prince kidnapped Lyanna. That is indeed terrible. However, there’s nothing in the books that suggest that. Quite contrary, Ned goes quite mild when describing Rhaegar. Which makes me wonder, why the need of such revision of history?

 

I think you are right here. Ned's lack of anger does point towards (with other things) the fact that the kidnap and rape story is just revisionist history to either placate king Robert, justify the rebellion or some combination of both.

8 hours ago, devilish said:

 


 

 

The only possible conclusion is that Rhaegar didn’t kidnap Lyanna but she simply went with him out of her own will. Assuming that is indeed the truth then how terrible that is? To answer to that particular question then we might consider shifting our attention to Brandon Stark and Robert Baratheon. After all both had consensual sex with girls of high nobility (Ryswell and Florent) and both got away with it. The Targs themselves had quite a history with paramours. Aegon the unworthy had quite a collection which included a Blackwood and a Bracken. No one rebelled because of it. Even frigging LF the least of all Lords was able to have sex with Lysa and get away with it. You expect Hoster to make sure that the man who soiled his prized asset would lose his head. It wasn’t the case

 

Here is where things get a little sticky. While there was surely some sexual shenanigans amonst young lords and ladies, a few important differences. First, neither Barbery Ryswell nor  Delena Florent were married or betrothed. Sure, they were having pre martial sex, but they weren't explicitly violating a marriage contract between two houses. That the daughter of a lord is chattel needs to be taken pretty seriously here I think. Hoster wasn't upset too much with Lysa because Lysa wasn't ruined....a little tansy tea and a few bits of negotiation and Lysa was married to the lord of the vale. If she wound up married to some 28th son of Walder Frey things might have fallen differently. This isn't proof against your claim by a long shot, but it is one arrow in the quiver. I feel that you are trying to play down the tremendous betrayal that is breaking a marriage contract versus some pre marital sex between people of privilege which was probably close to ubiquitous

8 hours ago, devilish said:

 

 

So to answer that particular question, Rhaegar may have caused a diplomatic upset but he didn’t commit a crime. The books kind of back that. In fact, no one called the banners because of Lyanna. They didn’t even called the banners when Brandon went to KL threatening the crown prince either. Robert’s erm actually Jon Arryn’s rebellion started when Aerys expected Jon to break guest rights and execute two innocent people who were under his protection. That’s something Jon couldn’t do.

 

To me, this is your strongest point. You are 100% right. Brandon rode to Kings Landing and demanded a duel with Rhaegar but no one called the banners, there was no threat of withholding taxes...just a bunch of bluster. If you took Areys out of the equation (or at least took his insanity out of the equation) then at most there might have been a duel to first blood, a fist fight or, more than likely, a bunch of hot words and done. It isn't like there was a Northern Host at the King's Gate.

 

 

8 hours ago, devilish said:

 

 

So what caused Rhaegar to cause this diplomatic upset? We need to take in consideration some events that happened during that particular period

  1. The deteriorating relationship between Tywin and Aerys

  2. The defiance of Duskendale

  3. Rhaegar’s marriage to Elia

  4. Aerys shunning Rhaenys as she smell too Dornish

  5. Aerys obsession with Viserys

  6. The tournament of Harrenhal

  7. Rhaegar’s fleeing with Lyanna

All are closely knit to one another. In Duskendale, Rhaegar was basically crowned by Tywin who endorsed him as a better king to Aerys and urged the royalists to sack the city in total disregard of Aerys safety. That plan was countered by Selmy who went full Rambo and rescued a broken Aerys from sure death.

That had a devastating effect on the king. Not only he was taken hostage by his own subjects but he must felt betrayed by the very people he trusted the most. Tywin was Aerys friend, a man, Aerys appointed as HOTK. Rhaegar on the other hand was his son and heir. How could they possibly agree with the sacking of Duskendale? Why didn’t Rhaegar turned down such endorsement?

The result to that was pretty clear. Aerys ordered Steffon to go to Essos and find some random girl from Valyrian descend. That was meant to punish Tywin who was desperate to see Cersei marrying Rhaegar and to weaken the crown prince. Ultimately Aerys had to give his go ahead to Rhaegar’s marriage to Elia a physically weak girl with question marks around her whether she can produce any heirs and whose house was unbeatable in Dorne but pretty weak when stepping outside of it.

Elia was able to produce two children, one of which a heir. Yet Aegon never liked them. Instead he grew obsessed with Viserys, which of course is bad news for Rhaegar especially considering Aerys descend to violence and madness. We all know that the only way, Aerys golden boy could inherit the crown was to eliminate both Rhaegar and the prince that was promised.

So here we are at Harrenhal, a tourney meant for Rhaegar to raise allies against the crown. But to Rhaegar’s despair Aerys finds out, he gatecrash the tourney and Rhaegar is left with nothing apart from the admirations of the Stark girl (whose agenda was to find somebody whose powerful enough to break her future marriage to Robert). That’s a very dangerous situation for Rhaegar to be in. If someone spills the beans regarding the truth about Harrenhal then Rhaegar and possibly his family will be fried meat. Dorne alone won’t be able to stop that.

As said, the North is a strange land for the Southerners but one thing is certain. They do love family. That was clear to Rhaegar when he crowned Lyanna lady of beauty. If the Starks can go ballistic on such minor manner then imagine what they would do if let say, Lyanna’s baby is threatened by Aerys.

By escaping with Lyanna, Rhaegar achieved two things.

  1. He shifted the attention from Harrenhal’s scandal to Lyanna

  2. He hoped to bully himself into a possible alliance between the crown prince and the Starks. Once Lyanna is pregnant, Rhaegar and the Stark’s fate were interwined whether Rickard liked it or not.

     

 

 

 

 

 

You have a lot of good here and a lot that is hard to argue with. One point of contention I have is what is in this for Lyanna. Why does she love Rhaegar. I mean we can go "handsome, charming, artsy prince" but is that all. In no way is Lyanna made out to be like Sansa who dreams of songs of beautiful dresses and handsome princes. She doesn't come off as power hungry and desirous of simply marrying the king the way Cersei and Margaery come off. She doesn't dislike Robert because he is ugly (he is described as being noted for being handsome) or weak, or cowardly....obviously Robert was none of those things....her family approved of the union (they made the arrangement) and Robert would have offered her a good life as the Lady of Storm's End so it is not that she would not be able to have an easy life. Lyanna gives one reason and one reason alone for not wanting to marry Robert...she claims he will not be able to keep to one bed. If you are a young woman betrothed to one of the handsomest, strongest, bravest, wealthiest and most powerful men in the world and your only reason for not wanting to marry him is you are afraid he won't be able to keep to one woman why would you seek out Rhaegar. Your answer that Rhaegar had the pull to make that marriage go away makes sense...but if your one and only reason for not wanting the marriage is the idea that Robert won't be able to keep faithful, why jump to being the second wife of a prince. It doesn't make sense. It would make more sense for her to run off with a stable boy given her character.

 

While I can't argue that Rhaegar would be the one person in the Realm able to get her out of the marriage she didn't want to get into it would only be through a process of getting her into an even WORSE situation. After all, Robert may have had whores, but she would be his wife and the lady of storms end....even if RHaegar pulled off the polygamy she would always be the second wife and her son would always come after young Aegon rather than be the future Lord of the Stomlands.

So if we take Lyanna's primary motivation to run off with Rhaegar where are we left. Assuming Rhaegar didn't just kidnap and rape her (which seems unlikely for a lot of reasons including the way the book is written, rhaegar's character, Ned's attitude, Selmy and Dayne's loyalty and love) then the truth might be somewhere in between. That Rhaegar was a bit manipulative in this situation, told some lies, bla bla bla, and why would he do this? To get laid? That doesn't make sense. Then it is either because of prophecy, which both you and I seem to have a hard time with, or for political machinations which I think we can agree was the reason though I just don't think the idea was as well conceived as you do because I have a hard time buying that betting on a teenage girl to be able to manipulate her father, Lord of Winterfell, and betting the entire jar of wax on it would be a little insane...then again, we already agreed that Rhaegar might not have been thinking rationally at this point.

 

Your version can only make perfect sense if Rhaegar is a little bit irrational and Lyanna is actually fully in love with him....I can buy the former, but the later is a little harder because while Rhaegar had man qualities prized by the women of the kingdom (Power, Wealth, Beauty, Emo Poet Prince, Future King, Dreamy Eyes etc) none of those things are qualities prized by Lyanna. The best analogy I could come up with is that Lyanna leaving Robert to Run off with Rhaegar would be like Arya falling madly in love with Loras Tyrell.


In the End, the rough and tumble northern girl would most likely have enjoyed Robert the warrior much more than Rhaegar the poet...but her problem was his being faithful and if that's the problem, a married man isn't your best bet.

 

  

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@YOVMO

 

The respect is pretty mutual mate.

Regarding Lyanna. Well we need to take 3 things in consideration here

 

a- Lyanna was around 16 at the time. That's hardly the peak of maturity.

b- Rhaegar was hot and he was incredibly persuasive. Cersei once asked "Had any man ever been so beautiful?". Tywin whose always been composed and stirred away from falling into Aerys many provocations threw caution in the wind to endorse the man while Selmy absolutely adored him. If this man could raise such strong emotions in Tywin and in a sour and mature Cersei then imagine what he could do to a 16 year old Stark girl who probably barely ever left the North (the same north whose 'poetry' produced the likes of Roose, Ramsey, Brandon, Greatjon Umber and Ned)

c- We know little about Lyanna however, Ned gives us a great insight on that when he likened her with Arya. That's great because we know a hell of a lot about Arya Stark. She's stubborn, strong willed and a rebel. Can you imagine how Arya would react if she's married off like cattle without Ned even bother asking for her consent?

 

So those are the three reasons why I believe Lyanna fled with Rhaegar. She was immature, Rhaegar was incredibly hot and persuasive + she's was being forced into a marriage no one bothered asking her opinion (let alone acting on it) about. There's actually a 4th thing ie she had no idea the big mess she would leave behind. I mean if you have a mad king as a father you wouldn't introduce yourself to a potential girl you want to go out with, with that

 

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I had considered these objections and find some better than others.

2 hours ago, devilish said:

@YOVMO

 

The respect is pretty mutual mate.

Regarding Lyanna. Well we need to take 3 things in consideration here

 

a- Lyanna was around 16 at the time. That's hardly the peak of maturity.

She surely isn't the peak of maturity but I do not think we can put her in league with a real life 16 year old in 2017. Being prone to flights of fancy? Absolutely. If you told me she had a lustful encounter with Rhaegar behind a stable during Harrenhall I wouldn't doubt it for a moment. But at 16 a stark girl would have, if nothing else, had really pounded into her a sense the importance of being a Stark and how important it is not to screw that up. While this doesn't mean there is no way this happens because, as you note, she is not a fully mature individual I would bet that Lyanna would have a full understanding of a) The importance of being a Stark of Winterfell b ) the importance of a betrothal (I assume her betrothal to Robert happened in a ceremony--most likely in front of a Weirwood--with her whole family in tow and c) A general sense of right and wrong with regard both to personal as well as family morality.

2 hours ago, devilish said:

b- Rhaegar was hot and he was incredibly persuasive. Cersei once asked "Had any man ever been so beautiful?".

Funny, I thought about this quote from Cersei when I responded to you. But what Cersei finds hot and what Lyanna stark find hot would, I think inarguably, be two very different things. Cersei loved beauty the way that she and Jamie had, elegant, refined beauty. While we don't know a ton about Lyanna we do know she is a bit of a tomboy. That kind of girl might be far more inclined to find a man like Robert, the rough around the edges, massive young lord who was like a "maidens fantasy" and who didn't deftly joust but was a blunt instrument warrior.

 

In the same what that the men who Sansa found beautiful (Joffery, Loras, Renly, Jamie) Arya demurred from to say the least I would suggest that the tastes between a young Cersei and young Lyanna would be very similarly opposite.

 

2 hours ago, devilish said:

 

Tywin whose always been composed and stirred away from falling into Aerys many provocations threw caution in the wind to endorse the man

This is true, but I have a hard time believing that Tywin didn't calculate this out and figure his best chance was with a young king that felt he was an ally than an old and mentally ill king who was starting to see him as an enemy in the house after Duskendale.

2 hours ago, devilish said:

while Selmy absolutely adored him.

This one I thought of as well, but Selmy's adoration of Rhaegar was a matter of Duty. I don't think Selmy was smart enough to truly love, honor or respect anyone that he wasn't honor bound to. I could be wrong here, but it is my impression.

 

2 hours ago, devilish said:

If this man could raise such strong emotions in Tywin and in a sour and mature Cersei then imagine what he could do to a 16 year old Stark girl who probably barely ever left the North (the same north whose 'poetry' produced the likes of Roose, Ramsey, Brandon, Greatjon Umber and Ned)

And again, while this statement makes sense on one level I feel it is akin to saying "if xyz could stir such emotions in Cersei, Sansa, Margaery Tyrell and the girls of her court then think how much Brienne of Tarth or Arya would have lusted over them which is just incongruous. Sure Brienne loved Renly but that was about him being kind to her, not him being some fancy and handsome lord. Look who arya got along with....Hot Pie, Gendry, Syrio Forrell, Jon Stark with his fathers somber look (not Robb with his mother's beauty), Yoren while people like Joffrey, Loras Tyrel and Even Dareon from the NW she has no tolerance for.

Now I can see you saying that the Niece is not the Aunt and of course you would be right, but I think it is pretty clear from the start that Arya is meant to be similar to Lyanna and that while we don't get a ton of Lyanna we do get the sense that Arya is more Stark and more like Lyanna than Sansa who is the archtype of the Tully princess and more similar to the ladies of southern courts.

2 hours ago, devilish said:

c- We know little about Lyanna however, Ned gives us a great insight on that when he likened her with Arya. That's great because we know a hell of a lot about Arya Stark. She's stubborn, strong willed and a rebel. Can you imagine how Arya would react if she's married off like cattle without Ned even bother asking for her consent?

Here is a solid argument. If the claim is that, like Arya, Lyanna simply didn't want to be married off to some southern lord she may, in her own way, have been playing Rhaegar to get out of the marriage with no real desire to marry him and the pregnancy (and of course her death in childbirth) itself was unintended. Maybe to her 16 year old mind, running off with Rhaegar would be a good way of showing her father xyz or making herself unacceptable to the young storm lord. Back to your point about Rhaegar being one person who could have the power to somehow get her out of this arrangement which I agree makes sense, if we add to it that maybe she was playing her own game here it would make a lot more sense. But while we know very little about Lyanna, one thing we do know from her own words to Ned, is that what is important to her is that a husband remains to one woman....back to her objection to Robert simply being he would never keep to one bed....there is no way you go to being the second wife of a prince who already has an heir in exchange to being the only wife of a lord who will likely bed a lot of whores. Of course, she could be lying to Ned but this is all we have to work on here. 

2 hours ago, devilish said:

 

So those are the three reasons why I believe Lyanna fled with Rhaegar. She was immature, Rhaegar was incredibly hot and persuasive + she's was being forced into a marriage no one bothered asking her opinion (let alone acting on it) about. There's actually a 4th thing ie she had no idea the big mess she would leave behind. I mean if you have a mad king as a father you wouldn't introduce yourself to a potential girl you want to go out with, with that

 

I can buy that Lyanna *might* not know the consequences of her actions in a larger sense of Westerosi Politics and I can even buy that Rhaegar thought he was making a gamble that might have turned out in his favor....what I can not buy is that Lyanna didn't know that she would be dishonoring Robert, her Father and have broken a solemn promise which is kind of something which is ingrained in the starks at a very young age....and further can't buy that Rhaegar, even if he did think the gamble was worth it, didn't see how the law of unanticipated consequences could have been totally disastrous for him personally, but might also cause the end of the 300 year Targaryen reign and bring the end of his house. This is a high stakes game he is playing

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