Definitive List of Plot Holes [SPOILERS]

[Suzanna Stormborn]

4 hours ago, Tywinelle said:

I'm pretty sure Bran said that the maester made the wheelchair, not that he invented it.  I don't have a problem with them having things in the south that aren't common in the north, and vice versa.  It's actually logical that the harsher and poorer north has a less sophisticated culture and fewer creature comforts than the south.

they suggest it was invented, someone (Sansa? Meera? I cant remember) is like 'What a clever idea' 

And with how fast news travels on HBO-Westeros, and how many ravens are constantly flying from Oldtown to WF, there is no excuse for people in WF to not know something that's happening in Dorne. Everyone knows everything in HBO-Westeros, they have the internet, they have iphones information travels just as fast as it does in RL. except of course Arya hadnt heard about the entire events of the North from last season, miraculously, I guess she lost her phone charger that week?

[sweetsunray]

On 2/8/2017 at 4:53 PM, Tywinelle said:

Exactly:  "it's not clear" and that's why I don't think it is a plot hole.

Something not being clear is a loose end and therefore a plot hole, especially given the fact they portray Arya as being at the Twins for days if not weeks, having been able to snoop around, have access to Walder's raven messages of the past with his face, etc.

Just because they lampshade and handwave all their plot holes at their own inconvenience doesn't make it any less of a plot hole.

[Tywinelle]

On 18/08/2017 at 9:43 PM, Suzanna Stormborn said:

they suggest it was invented, someone (Sansa? Meera? I cant remember) is like 'What a clever idea' 

And with how fast news travels on HBO-Westeros, and how many ravens are constantly flying from Oldtown to WF, there is no excuse for people in WF to not know something that's happening in Dorne. Everyone knows everything in HBO-Westeros, they have the internet, they have iphones information travels just as fast as it does in RL. except of course Arya hadnt heard about the entire events of the North from last season, miraculously, I guess she lost her phone charger that week?

It was Meera and I disagree that calling it a "clever idea" suggests that it was invented by the current Winterfell maester.  It simply meant that Meera hasn't seen it before which was logical because her education and exposure to the world was limited.

[Tywinelle]

 

On 18/08/2017 at 10:21 PM, sweetsunray said:

Something not being clear is a loose end and therefore a plot hole, especially given the fact they portray Arya as being at the Twins for days if not weeks, having been able to snoop around, have access to Walder's raven messages of the past with his face, etc.

Just because they lampshade and handwave all their plot holes at their own inconvenience doesn't make it any less of a plot hole.

"In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. Such inconsistencies include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline."

A loose end and a plot hole are not the same thing.

[kimim]

4 hours ago, Tywinelle said:

 

"In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. Such inconsistencies include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline."

A loose end and a plot hole are not the same thing.

Here's a plot hole: Dany asks for an armistice when she is, literally, an hour from defeating Cersei.

All she has to do is melt the Red Keep, unite humanity vs Walkers, and fight. But no.

 

Edit, another plot hole: LF uses Sansa's old letter to distance Arya from Sansa instead of what Sansa did just last season--hid the Vale army, waited till Jon was more or less defeated, then came in to save the day.

[SecretWeapon]

neither are plot holes, just stupid ideas

[kimim]

6 hours ago, SecretWeapon said:

neither are plot holes, just stupid ideas

Certainly an example of an "inconsistency in the storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot." Generals on the verge of victory don't pull back and ask for an armistice in this series.  A brilliant plotter like LF is unlikely to forget what Sansa did only recently. The very stupidity of the writing this season creates giant holes that destroy the fabric of the plot.

[Tywinelle]

On 20/08/2017 at 10:34 PM, kimim said:

Here's a plot hole: Dany asks for an armistice when she is, literally, an hour from defeating Cersei.

All she has to do is melt the Red Keep, unite humanity vs Walkers, and fight. But no.

 

Edit, another plot hole: LF uses Sansa's old letter to distance Arya from Sansa instead of what Sansa did just last season--hid the Vale army, waited till Jon was more or less defeated, then came in to save the day.

Don't get me started on the old letter.  People say that the magnificent seven's mission beyond the wall was one of the dumbest things on the show ever, but to me pulling out an old letter that dates back to when Sansa was a naive little bird and treating it as relevant and important, is beyond stupid.  I seriously wanted Arya to spontaneously combust during that scene I hated her so much.

[NickStark2494]

On 8/3/2017 at 6:38 AM, Error-504 said:

Euron could have easily split his fleet into two parts, one set sail to KL, the other half remained at the Pike, so, not a plot hole. Euron was never seen in the scene in which the iron born destroyed the fleet that carried the unsullied. 

Sorry to inform you, but Euron's ship, the Silence, was specifically seen by Grey Worm in Episode 3.

If the Silence is there, Euron is there. We can clearly see it, as it's much larger than all the others, and it's unique (per the showrunners, who discussed his unique and massive ship in bonus materials for Episode 2).

Besides, even if Euron himself weren't there, the ship obviously traveled from near Dragonstone to Casterly Rock. Which would take many weeks.

Yet somehow, Theon doesn't return to Dragonstone until the end of Episode 4, AFTER Daenerys has already been informed of the events at Highgarden and Casterly Rock. Meaning Euron returns to KL, Jaime is still there when he returns by the way, and then Jaime marches for weeks to Highgarden while Euron sails for weeks to the Rock.

During all this time, Theon still hasn't made it back to Dragonstone. Despite the fact that he and Euron were at the same battle, and KL and Dragonstone are right next to each other, meaning that they have the exact same distance to travel.

Nonetheless, Theon only returns to Dragonstone several weeks after Euron returns to KL.

In other words days have passed for Theon, while weeks or months passed for Euron.

So yes, it is a plot hole, because the timeline is utterly nonsensical.

[Error-504]

On 8/25/2017 at 11:39 AM, NickStark2494 said:

Sorry to inform you, but Euron's ship, the Silence, was specifically seen by Grey Worm in Episode 3.

If the Silence is there, Euron is there. We can clearly see it, as it's much larger than all the others, and it's unique (per the showrunners, who discussed his unique and massive ship in bonus materials for Episode 2).

Besides, even if Euron himself weren't there, the ship obviously traveled from near Dragonstone to Casterly Rock. Which would take many weeks.

Yet somehow, Theon doesn't return to Dragonstone until the end of Episode 4, AFTER Daenerys has already been informed of the events at Highgarden and Casterly Rock. Meaning Euron returns to KL, Jaime is still there when he returns by the way, and then Jaime marches for weeks to Highgarden while Euron sails for weeks to the Rock.

During all this time, Theon still hasn't made it back to Dragonstone. Despite the fact that he and Euron were at the same battle, and KL and Dragonstone are right next to each other, meaning that they have the exact same distance to travel.

Nonetheless, Theon only returns to Dragonstone several weeks after Euron returns to KL.

In other words days have passed for Theon, while weeks or months passed for Euron.

So yes, it is a plot hole, because the timeline is utterly nonsensical.

It was a sister ship, and Theon was on a freaking row boat for gods sake. 

[sweetsunray]

On 20-8-2017 at 0:21 PM, Tywinelle said:

 

"In fiction, a plot hole, plothole or plot error is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot. Such inconsistencies include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline."

A loose end and a plot hole are not the same thing.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotHole

Quote

Plot holes can come in many forms:

• Characters suddenly having knowledge that was never passed to them, or vice versa; characters not knowing something they knew last week, or something that anyone in their position must know.
• An event does not logically follow from what has gone before.
• An event occurring that other events in the work simply do not allow.

Plot holes are sometimes plugged up or ignored with a Hand Wave, or occasionally dealt with by a Lampshade Hanging, and some writers think Plot Holes that only become apparent well after the story is over aren't worth sweating.

Once you need to hand wave or lamp shade or ignore a plot point, then that's an indication of a plot hole.

So, we have Edmure at the siege of RR. Jaime offers him to be sent to CR along with wife and child if he cooperates. At the Twins Walder says "he's back in a/his cell", either portraying Jaime as a liar even when Edmure held his end up of the bargain or not, which does not follow logically from Jaime's characterization. You could argue that it's "a" cell and that it may be CR, but the "back" especially when said by Walder gives the random viewer the impression that Edmure is "back" in the cell at the Twins.

Arya lives as Walder Frey for several weeks at the Twins, but doesn't rescue her uncle Edmure. She saves 3 guys from a burning cage, an actress who played Cersei in Braavos ,etc ... but not her uncle while avenging what the Freys did to her family? BS.

Ah, but Edmure's at CR? Wanna bet how much chance there is of Edmure being rescued from CR? None. 0. Nada.

A loose end like "WTF is the guy easily made Warden of the RL again the Lannisters?" is an inconsistency to the political logic of this damn season. It's the region where the Wot5K began ffs.

It's a plot hole being turned into a loose end to hide it's a plot hole, and most likely because D&D aren't sure whether they're using Edmure again for S8 and where they'll have him pop up again.

 

[sweetsunray]

On 24-8-2017 at 5:54 PM, Tywinelle said:

Don't get me started on the old letter.  People say that the magnificent seven's mission beyond the wall was one of the dumbest things on the show ever, but to me pulling out an old letter that dates back to when Sansa was a naive little bird and treating it as relevant and important, is beyond stupid.  I seriously wanted Arya to spontaneously combust during that scene I hated her so much.

Arya can see it's in Sansa's handwritng. But that letter was at Moat Cailin and went south. So, how the heck did Luwin have it?

I know the book answer for that, but the show never used that at all, and so now created a plot hole.

[mormont]

[mod] Let's keep it civil in here, please. [/mod]

[NickStark2494]

20 hours ago, Error-504 said:

It was a sister ship, and Theon was on a freaking row boat for gods sake. 

It was not a sister ship, it was the Silence. There is no sister ship.

Second, Theon was not on a row boat. Go back to his scenes in Episode 3 and 4 and rewatch them before arguing, please.

We clearly see him being retrieved by his men and put on a large ship in Episode 3. Then, in Episode 4, while Jon and Davos are speaking with Missandei, Jon sees a Greyjoy SHIP, and points it out.

The next scene features Theon's arrival. He's on a row boat, because as you must know, one cannot simply bring a large ship all the way to the shore.

You anchor it a few hundred meters out, and then you row to shore. But Theon did not travel all the way back in a row boat. He was aboard a ship.

Like I said, go back to Episode 3 and 4, we see the ship 3 times.

[Tywinelle]

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Arya can see it's in Sansa's handwritng. But that letter was at Moat Cailin and went south. So, how the heck did Luwin have it?

I know the book answer for that, but the show never used that at all, and so now created a plot hole.

Good pick up.

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, Tywinelle said:

Good pick up.

Credit to Preston Jacobs actually

[Suzanna Stormborn]

20 hours ago, NickStark2494 said:

It was not a sister ship, it was the Silence. There is no sister ship.

Second, Theon was not on a row boat. Go back to his scenes in Episode 3 and 4 and rewatch them before arguing, please.

We clearly see him being retrieved by his men and put on a large ship in Episode 3. Then, in Episode 4, while Jon and Davos are speaking with Missandei, Jon sees a Greyjoy SHIP, and points it out.

The next scene features Theon's arrival. He's on a row boat, because as you must know, one cannot simply bring a large ship all the way to the shore.

You anchor it a few hundred meters out, and then you row to shore. But Theon did not travel all the way back in a row boat. He was aboard a ship.

Like I said, go back to Episode 3 and 4, we see the ship 3 times.

this is all exactly accurate

[Tywinelle]

On 28/08/2017 at 1:01 AM, sweetsunray said:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotHole

Once you need to hand wave or lamp shade or ignore a plot point, then that's an indication of a plot hole.

So, we have Edmure at the siege of RR. Jaime offers him to be sent to CR along with wife and child if he cooperates. At the Twins Walder says "he's back in a/his cell", either portraying Jaime as a liar even when Edmure held his end up of the bargain or not, which does not follow logically from Jaime's characterization. You could argue that it's "a" cell and that it may be CR, but the "back" especially when said by Walder gives the random viewer the impression that Edmure is "back" in the cell at the Twins.

Arya lives as Walder Frey for several weeks at the Twins, but doesn't rescue her uncle Edmure. She saves 3 guys from a burning cage, an actress who played Cersei in Braavos ,etc ... but not her uncle while avenging what the Freys did to her family? BS.

Ah, but Edmure's at CR? Wanna bet how much chance there is of Edmure being rescued from CR? None. 0. Nada.

A loose end like "WTF is the guy easily made Warden of the RL again the Lannisters?" is an inconsistency to the political logic of this damn season. It's the region where the Wot5K began ffs.

It's a plot hole being turned into a loose end to hide it's a plot hole, and most likely because D&D aren't sure whether they're using Edmure again for S8 and where they'll have him pop up again.

 

Still not a plot hole but sloppy writing IMO.

[good girl]

On 27/08/2017 at 6:03 PM, sweetsunray said:

Arya can see it's in Sansa's handwritng. But that letter was at Moat Cailin and went south. So, how the heck did Luwin have it?

I know the book answer for that, but the show never used that at all, and so now created a plot hole.

The answer is Luwin keeps a catalogue of all the scrolls sent to Winterfell for his records, Robb must have taken the copy South! The handwriting is never seen or mentioned in the later scene where Catelyn reads the letter on the show so it works on the level of not being completely impossible.

The machinations of creating Luwin's catalogue and the stretch George goes to in the book so that Cat can see the letter but also that there is a copy in Sansa's hand at Winterfell does make me think the letter is a plot point direct from George.

[storm.131]

On 25/07/2017 at 0:55 PM, Holly Macaroni said:

I dismissed this one, because, as far as we knew, Cersei could've kept it a secret, but Hot Pie confirmed that it is common knowledge that Cersei blew up the sept.

We've had two seasons of the High Sparrow telling us how his death would be irrelevant, since the faith has hive mentality, and they are in large numbers. Also, the faith held administrative and legislative power over the crown in some aspects. Suddenly, Cersei blows up the Sept, with lots of important people in it (but certainly not everyone of the faith)...and they crown her, afterwards? No uprising? No reaction from the faith? No mass deserting? No....anything?

They even have this scene in s07e02 where she talks to some lords and argues that the Mad King COULD'VE USED wilfire, and they are dismissive of stuff such as the red wedding...but this seems to be hand waved.

This one is the biggest one for, me. In fact, I'd rate this as potentially the greatest plot hole in TV history, because of all the build up to a lazy cop out of an outcome.

I agree with all the points you've made but would add this too:  in the lead up to the Battle of Blackwater Bay (season 2, episode 5), Tyrion met with the pyromancer and found out they were making and stockpiling wildfire for Cersei, and the meeting ended with him saying something like "from now on you'll be making wildfire for me."  There was no scene in which Cersei found out about Tyrion having gone behind her back and usurped her pet project.  Yeah right, as if Cersei would pass up the opportunity to confront Tyrion and get back at him.

Then, in the lead up to the Sept being blown up, it was implied that Cersei didn't know for sure that there were stockpiles of wildfire under King's Landing because we saw Qyburn telling her that it wasn't just a rumour and was "much more".  So, it went from Cersei having the pyromancers working for her, to her not knowing for sure what the deal with wildfire is???

Adding to the poor writing was the fact that Tyrion said Jaime told him that the Mad King had a plan in place to burn King's Landing to the ground by having wildfire positioned under all the major buildings BUT he didn't tell Cersei, the sibling he was closer to?

While the episode in which the Sept was blown up was spectacular, it was (like much of the last two seasons) all special effects and style over substance.  The writers were too focused on wowing the audience regardless of whether this created plot holes or made sense.

The North remembers (and so do some viewers).  It was indeed as you said, a lazy cop out of an outcome.