Definitive List of Plot Holes [SPOILERS]

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, Tywinelle said:

Walder said Edmure is "back in his cell".  He didn't say where the cell was.

In S6 Walder has Edmure taken out of "his cell" in the Twins so that the Freys can use him during the siege. Walder's sons leave with Edmure to RR and besiege it, threatening to kill Edmure to sway the Blackfish. Then Jaime shows up and threatens Edmure's child and tells him if he cooperates he could be a prisoner at CR and be with his wife and child if he cooperates. Edmure does as Jaime wants. Then we see Walder and Jaime talk at the Twins, and Walder says Edmure is "back in his cell". Since his previous cell was in the Twins, that means back in the Twins. 

So, is this a continuity error in the writing? Did Jaime lie?

It's not clear. S7's cold open only made it look like an error in writing even more. If he was at the Twins then Arya killed all the men of House Frey but never made an effort to free her uncle, which is not in Arya's character (see her warning Lady Crane in S6).

So, yes, definite plot-hole.  

[StepStark]

1 hour ago, Tywinelle said:

Explaining away the ridiculous is not the same as a plot hole.

PS It's not "my definition".  Look it up.

You're just nitpicking now. I'm calling it your definition because you're the one using it in this discussion. But you're not answering my question: why do you think Alliser Thorn never appearing in KL isn't a plot hole, but Mel bathing without necklace is? Both can be "explained" with some ridiculous explanation, so by the criteria you didn't invent but nevertheless introduced in this discussion (see how tiring that can be) neither is a plot hole actually.

[Rhollo]

6 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

In the show universe Brandon was burnt like his father, not strangled like in the books.

Jon's claim is consistent (rare for the show lol) with Jaime in season 1 in the throne room talking to Ned about the Mad King burning Ned's father and brother alive in that same spot.

In the History & Lore videos, which should count as part of the show universe, Brandon was strangled (forced to strange himself, actually)

 

[El Guapo]

Yeah the whereabouts of Edmure Tully is definitely a plot hole and one that is honestly quite avoidable. All they needed was one little line from Jamie in episode one when talking about all the Freys being dead and saying something like "and Edmure Tully is gone too". That is it.

[YoungGriff89]

9 hours ago, Tywinelle said:

1.  Not plot hole.  Just because they said they would do something and we didn't see it happen, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.  It's more lazy storytelling in my opinion.

2.  Definitely plot hole.  I also noticed there was no necklace peeking out of her cloak when she came to meet Dany on Dragonstone.  It usually sat high enough to be seen when she was wearing a cloak.  I guess she could have had the ruby somewhere else though.

3.  Not a plot hole.  Who cares where Gendry ended up?  He was a minor character who served a purpose and his part in the story was over.

4.  This is only a plot hole if the lords don't know that Jon was technically released from his vows because he was killed.  If they do know, it's not a plot hole.  

5.  Not a plot hole at all!  Varys sent assassins to appear to be on King Robert's side but he also made sure they would fail.

6.  Not a plot hole.  Talisa's family was noble but that doesn't necessarily mean they were powerful.

7.  Only a plot hole if they specifically said the King's Guards would stay with Myrcella in Dorne, but not if they just accompanied her on the journey and then returned to King's Landing.

Oh I had already commented before about how five is no longer a plot hole.  At the time it was posted there hadn't been any explanation and it was more than borderline.  As for six I'm not saying that in itself is enough to drastically alter the story in Westeros (the Volantenes probably aren't going to invade or anything) I just meant it from the sense that we have been to Volantis in the show more than once already it just seems like for continuity and the sake of world building there would be something no matter how small that alludes to this.  As far as seven goes, I agree it's debatable since the show has been mum about how the kingsguard vows actually apply to family members but it makes no sense to send a kingsguard just to drop her off, she's not even remotely out of danger or harm's way.  

[Cas Stark]

Many of the show's plot holes, logic fails and continuity gaps could have been addressed with 1 or 2 lines of dialogue.  

Edmure right now is somewhat of a plot hole as it strains credulity that Arya would have spent a fortnight as Walder Frey and not found out how/where her uncle was and freed him.  He could also pop up out of nowhere later in season 8, in which case they would close the plot hole and we would just infer that she freed him.

[The Sunland Lord]

While not some major plot hole (if that's the case), or is maybe Daenerys THAT MUCH ignorant about fresh history of the continent she wants to rule, how doesn't she know that in fact Robb Stark was the last King in the North before Jon, and not Torrhen? 

I might be wrong, but previously she said something like: "Five Kings fighting in Westeros", hardly to forget one of them was Robb.

[Tywinelle]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

It's not clear. S7's cold open only made it look like an error in writing even more. If he was at the Twins then Arya killed all the men of House Frey but never made an effort to free her uncle, which is not in Arya's character (see her warning Lady Crane in S6).

So, yes, definite plot-hole.  

Exactly:  "it's not clear" and that's why I don't think it is a plot hole.

I'm not defending the showrunners because it would have been better to tie up that loose end, but not mentioning a minor character who is no longer needed in the story (eg same as Gendry), is not a plot hole.

[Tywinelle]

1 hour ago, StepStark said:

You're just nitpicking now. I'm calling it your definition because you're the one using it in this discussion. But you're not answering my question: why do you think Alliser Thorn never appearing in KL isn't a plot hole, but Mel bathing without necklace is? Both can be "explained" with some ridiculous explanation, so by the criteria you didn't invent but nevertheless introduced in this discussion (see how tiring that can be) neither is a plot hole actually.

Nitpicking?  The title of the thread is "definitive list of plot holes", so how is it nitpicking to expect people to actually know the meaning of the term "plot hole" before deciding to use it and contribute to the list?

You actually never asked that question, but here goes.

We literally saw Melissandre take off the necklace and transform into an old woman in one scene but she didn't appear as an old woman when she wasn't wearing the necklace a few seasons ago.  That is what makes it a plot hole.  It wasn't ambiguous.

If you're going to call Alliser not being seen visiting King's Landing a plot hole, then everything else that was talked about but not seen on screen, is a plot hole too (and that's not the case).

[El Guapo]

17 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

While not some major plot hole (if that's the case), or is maybe Daenerys THAT MUCH ignorant about fresh history of the continent she wants to rule, how doesn't she know that in fact Robb Stark was the last King in the North before Jon, and not Torrhen? 

I might be wrong, but previously she said something like: "Five Kings fighting in Westeros", hardly to forget one of them was Robb.

If she acknowledges Robb as the last King of the North she is essentially legitimizing his rule which is something she clearly doesn't believe since she declared that Jon was in open rebellion to the crown. She can't really acknowledge Robb as a legitimate King and then deny that Jon isn't. That is my take on it anyway.

[Cas Stark]

4 minutes ago, Tywinelle said:

Nitpicking?  The title of the thread is "definitive list of plot holes", so how is it nitpicking to expect people to actually know the meaning of the term "plot hole" before deciding to use it and contribute to the list?

You actually never asked that question, but here goes.

We literally saw Melissandre take off the necklace and transform into an old woman in one scene but she didn't appear as an old woman when she wasn't wearing the necklace a few seasons ago.  That is what makes it a plot hole.  It wasn't ambiguous.

If you're going to call Alliser not being seen visiting King's Landing a plot hole, then everything else that was talked about but not seen on screen, is a plot hole too (and that's not the case).

I would call that a continuity mistake more than a plot hole.  But, I guess it could be seen as both or one or the other.

[The Sunland Lord]

2 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

If she acknowledges Robb as the last King of the North she is essentially legitimizing his rule which is something she clearly doesn't believe since she declared that Jon was in open rebellion to the crown. She can't really acknowledge Robb as a legitimate King and then deny that Jon isn't. That is my take on it anyway.

Your take is reasonable, and I thought it might be the case too, however she called Robert a King a few times, but maybe back then didn't care much about terminology. Now she's too much into all of it, so you might be right.

[Tywinelle]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

In S6 Walder has Edmure taken out of "his cell" in the Twins so that the Freys can use him during the siege. Walder's sons leave with Edmure to RR and besiege it, threatening to kill Edmure to sway the Blackfish. Then Jaime shows up and threatens Edmure's child and tells him if he cooperates he could be a prisoner at CR and be with his wife and child if he cooperates. Edmure does as Jaime wants. Then we see Walder and Jaime talk at the Twins, and Walder says Edmure is "back in his cell". Since his previous cell was in the Twins, that means back in the Twins. 

I actually just rewatched the scene.  Walder says "back in a cell" not "his cell" as I previously thought.  "A cell" could mean somewhere else.  I'd love it if the Unsullied found him now that they have conquered the Rock  :-)

[Tywinelle]

11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I would call that a continuity mistake more than a plot hole.  But, I guess it could be seen as both or one or the other.

I would say it was a continuity mistake if it was just a case of a meaningless accessory, but since it's crucial to her appearance and storyline, it's a plot hole.

[Error-504]

On 7/20/2017 at 7:58 AM, Future Null Infinity said:

• Alys Karstark : a girl became the head of her house
• Lyanna Mormont : a girl became the head of her house
• Sansa Stark : this girl can't be the head of her house, let's defy the rules in the story and make some fan service by putting the bastard in her place, it will be good for the ratings and we don't care about plot holes

I see this over and over again, where has anyone said Sansa cannot be lord/Queen/whatever of Winterfell. Jon has been elected King of the North, the two are not mutually inclusive. 

[Error-504]

On 7/28/2017 at 10:53 AM, Walda said:

Also, the adult White Walkers we see look a lot older than Craster.

I figure the NIght King transformed the baby to stop it crying.

Maybe also, to stop it from getting hungry and cold, and needing it's nappy changed. The White Walkers don't seem to have any food or shelter, even for themselves. There are no female white walkers that could maybe breastfeed the soon-to-be white-crawlers, and all their pets are wights, so no ice-spider milk or anything like that. And we would expect Craster to have been offering up sons since before Gilly was born, all through the long summer, and the winter before it, and probably the winter before that, too. And Lord Jeor knew all about it, but did nothing? Afraid that if he said anything, he and his black brothers would have to stay up all the long night, soothing Crasters sons back to sleep? I guess that being a white walker means that they are perpetually wakeful too, and not tired in spite of extreme lack of sleep (possibly why the White Walkers all look so haggard so young). 

One would assume that craster started out with only a few "daughters" and their ranks grew and his "breeding program" progressed. As for the WW's conversionof children, there did appear to be a certain ceremony involved, so I don't think it is a simple as the NK tip-toeing around touching people to convert them to wights. 

[YoungGriff89]

When it comes the Melisandre's necklace, wasn't the whole gist of the scene her explaining to Selyse that she used potions to manipulate what people saw?  I mean isn't a logical explanation that Selyse had been under the influence of something in the air?  I need to rewatch the episode, which one was it?  Maybe I'm just reaching here.  

[StepStark]

4 hours ago, Tywinelle said:

We literally saw Melissandre take off the necklace and transform into an old woman in one scene but she didn't appear as an old woman when she wasn't wearing the necklace a few seasons ago.  That is what makes it a plot hole.  It wasn't ambiguous.

You keep misunderstanding me. I'm not denying that it's a plot hole, because it clearly is, you don't have to convince me of that. I'm just saying that other examples are also plot holes by the same standard. Mel's necklace is a plot hole not because it can't be explained (it can, as I did previously), but because the show doesn't offer anything that even hints at an explanation. And the same goes for Alliser, whose visit to KL would potentially be very important right now in the show universe, when Jon needs to convince Tyrion and Dany that WW exist. But the show never follows up on what happened when Alliser arrived in K even though it's not unimportant. And the same goes for Talisa being from a foreign noble house. If Jeyne in the books was killed in RW, you can bet that her family would make a big deal out of it, but in the show Talisa's social importance simply ended with her death, which is so typical of D&D. Realistically, her parents would come to Westeros and approach the Starks, or whatever is left of the Starks at that point, and that would most probably influence the course of the war. But the show simply doesn't deal with that, because Talisa doesn't matter any more once she's dead.

4 hours ago, Tywinelle said:

If you're going to call Alliser not being seen visiting King's Landing a plot hole, then everything else that was talked about but not seen on screen, is a plot hole too (and that's not the case).

It's not about what's seen on screen and what isn't. I thought at least that is clear. It's about Alliser facing KL with the information about WW. Considering that Tyrion (who as acting as Hand at the time) and Jon (who was the reason Alliser was sent to KL in the first place) are discussing WW at the very moment in the show, the importance of Alliser's appearing before the Iron Throne all those years ago is not insignificant. The very fact that Tyrion and Jon don't even mention Alliser in KL, pretty much means that D&D completely forgot about it, and that is as much a plot hole as Mel's necklace.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

6 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Many of the show's plot holes, logic fails and continuity gaps could have been addressed with 1 or 2 lines of dialogue.  

Edmure right now is somewhat of a plot hole as it strains credulity that Arya would have spent a fortnight as Walder Frey and not found out how/where her uncle was and freed him.  He could also pop up out of nowhere later in season 8, in which case they would close the plot hole and we would just infer that she freed him.

only if they come on this forum where we point out all the mistakes they are making!

They called Red Wine 'Arbor Gold' FFS

Here's a plot hole, If Bran can see everything, Why did he need to ask where Jon is?

And another, how did Qyburn find out what kind of poison Ellaria used?

And another, Euron captured Yara and Ellaria/Bad Pussy, then he took them back to KL, had time to walk through the city and all that mess, then he set sail again from KL and was able to catch Grey work off-guard moments after Grey work had taken CR? When Grey Worm had set sail from Dragonstone at the same time as Yara? So whats the deal? Grey Worm ships are the slowest in the world?

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

only if they come on this forum where we point out all the mistakes they are making!

They called Red Wine 'Arbor Gold' FFS

Here's a plot hole, If Bran can see everything, Why did he need to ask where Jon is?

And another, how did Qyburn find out what kind of poison Ellaria used?

And another, Euron captured Yara and Ellaria/Bad Pussy, then he took them back to KL, had time to walk through the city and all that mess, then he set sail again from KL and was able to catch Grey work off-guard moments after Grey work had taken CR? When Grey Worm had set sail from Dragonstone at the same time as Yara? So whats the deal? Grey Worm ships are the slowest in the world?

Just why couldn't Dany's fleet have a different color sail than Euron's?  I know everyone is dressed in black now and black is the new black, but jesus....something soooo simple would have made that scene of the boats getting sunk so much easier.

The logistics have become so totally fucked I barely even pay attention to them. After all, they sailed right by Dorne while playing parchese instead of doing strategy, landed at dragonstone, which the Lannisters predicted but did nothing, then sailed back to Dorne, all the while Eurone had sailed right by Dany to get to KL, and then sailed down to sink Yara's fleet, sailed back, and then off to CR, LMAO.  And, don't even get me started on Highgarden.

Bran's on an extended acid trip, so he will know or not know things depending on teh plot needs.