Speculation about the Others

[Valyirian Aurochs]

Quote

"Food and fire," Giant was saying, "that was all we asked of you. And you grudge us the food."

"Be glad I didn't grudge you fire too." Craster was a thick man made thicker by the ragged smelly sheepskins he wore day and night. He had a broad flat nose, a mouth that drooped to one side, and a missing ear. And though his matted hair and tangled beard might be grey going white, his hard knuckly hands still looked strong enough to hurt. "I fed you what I could, but you crows are always hungry. I'm a godly man, else I would have chased you off. You think I need the likes of him, dying on my floor? You think I need all of your mouths, little man?"

Samwell II, ASoS

2

Craster sacrifices to the Others, so it's the Others he worships when he calls himself a godly man. In this mysterious religion, all we know is that children have to be given to the Others, and in return, those children get turned into more Others, and the cycle repeats. I don't think the Others care much for instilling friendly hospitality in its followers, so it makes me wonder what Crastor meant by the line "I'm a godly man, else I would have chased you off."

I'm going to go on and say that the Night's Watch and the Others were originally allied.

It always bothered me that a wall made of ice is used to protect the world from the Others. The Others probably know more about ice than anyone else, so I always believed that the Others made the Ice wall. I must sound mad, but it doesn't really make sense the other way around. We aren't given much information on Brandon the Builder, so if he did build the Wall, he must at least have had help from the Others.

As to the purpose of the Wall... It might have marked a boundary between humans and Others. If my wild speculation is even half true, it means that the wildlings were nothing but fodder used for mating and giving babies to the Others. The Night's Watch would ensure that no wildlings escape their obligations to the Others. It's all very sinister. Jon's actions in ADwD can be seen as extremely dangerous then. The Night's Watch not only killed Crastor, one of the few, or the last wildling who gave his babies to the Others, but they also let a lot of Wildlings through the Wall as well.

What do all of you think of this weird line?

 

[Khal Varys]

2 hours ago, Valyirian Aurochs said:

Craster sacrifices to the Others, so it's the Others he worships when he calls himself a godly man. In this mysterious religion, all we know is that children have to be given to the Others, and in return, those children get turned into more Others, and the cycle repeats. I don't think the Others care much for instilling friendly hospitality in its followers, so it makes me wonder what Crastor meant by the line "I'm a godly man, else I would have chased you off."

I'm going to go on and say that the Night's Watch and the Others were originally allied.

It always bothered me that a wall made of ice is used to protect the world from the Others. The Others probably know more about ice than anyone else, so I always believed that the Others made the Ice wall. I must sound mad, but it doesn't really make sense the other way around. We aren't given much information on Brandon the Builder, so if he did build the Wall, he must at least have had help from the Others.

As to the purpose of the Wall... It might have marked a boundary between humans and Others. If my wild speculation is even half true, it means that the wildlings were nothing but fodder used for mating and giving babies to the Others. The Night's Watch would ensure that no wildlings escape their obligations to the Others. It's all very sinister. Jon's actions in ADwD can be seen as extremely dangerous then. The Night's Watch not only killed Crastor, one of the few, or the last wildling who gave his babies to the Others, but they also let a lot of Wildlings through the Wall as well.

I named this post 'Irresponsible Speculation' because only I'm going off of one line of dialogue. What do all of you think of this weird line?

 

Agreed that whatever religion the Others are, that Craster is a practioner.  

Moreover though, is the question of how that practice came to be?  Craster learns from his mother, who as a Wildling, practiced as well.  Could be that the wildlings just came to sacrifice as a result of having their children snatched in the night.  Or it could be a sacrifice in the more truer sense of religious practice.  Yet they do sacrifice so I wonder how far back that goes?  Who did Craster's mom learn from and so on...

As to their origins, purpose, etc.

I think they're the Yin to the Valyrian Yang of the Ice and Fire saga.  While there are other races that sort of align themselves with other odd deities/gods that are also aligned with other elements, the Storm God, the Drowned God, the Rhoynar & their water magics... for example.  The Old Gods and a sort of Mother Nature or earthy druidic element in the Children of the Forest.

From that sort of perspective and including other small tidbits that apply to these various elemental related religions, I wonder if the Others represent the underworld and death, as well as perhaps knowledge and wisdom if they are tied to the Old Gods at all... which although it appears they're not related, they do have similarities.

The Old God followers seemed to have engaged in sacrifice.  Bran's visions of Winterfell through the ages begins with a woman slitting a man's throat in front of the heart tree.  The heart trees have an odd connection with blood and seem to thrive when the roots are able to soak it up.

Babies are sacrificed to the Others.  While the mechanism for the sacrifice may differ, the act is the same.

My hunch is that the Others are ice magic practioners, but I can't pin down their seeming 'burning' hatred for all things warm blooded.  But, I find myself harkening back to Maester Aemon's words: Fire consumes, Cold preserves.

If Dragons are the representation of Fire, and the Others represent Ice, then if we apply the phrase, Fire consumes, it's destructive, but some good comes out of their destruction as lands typically are fertile after being scorched, much like ours after a wildfire...with the cold preserves, Others likely possess great knowledge and memory, and the cold can preserve what would otherwise rot or deteriorate.  The Others themselves are withered, as if they've lived extremely long lives, while also perhaps having their features twisted by the frost over extended periods.  

So perhaps, the Others are their own as yet unnamed religion to sort of go with their race if indeed they're not human in whole or in part.  If that's the case, my hunch is that prior to the First Men on Westeros, the Others existed among the Giants and CotF though I won't say they were friendly... but perhaps the Others truly were the inhabitants of the area around the Land of always Winter.  When the CotF were pushed further and further north they began to encroach on the Others' territory which may have sparked the original long night and ended with The Pact and the Wall, but the terms of that pact are forgotten by the realms if men and part of those terms was sacrifice.  

What nags at me is, that the Others were not exterminated, they were merely beaten back... then they go dormant for hundreds of years if not thousands.  So what gets them moving as we begin the story?  I still can't quite pin that down.  The Others were stirring before Dany's dragons hatched, before there wasn't a Stark at Winterfell, before the sacrifices end completely, before so many possible happenstances that could be indicative as a reason for the Others to move on humans.  My hunch says it has something to do with restoring the balance of season in the world, otherwise fire will consume too much... Ice is attempting to balance the scales in some grand scheme.

Certainly a fun topic to think about.  I think the wall was erected to keep Men from encroaching on Others' lands.  Still lots of holes in this whole Swiss cheese theory...

[Vaedys Targaryen]

Well, there is a theory that people south of the Wall also used to sacrifice to the Others, hence the Queensgate, which was originally named Snowgate. The theory is that people, or more specifically women, who had a bastard by means of First Night would go to Snowgate and sacrifice their child there, because the bastard last name in the North is Snow and the castle's original name was Snowgate.

But this actually makes me think; was the purpose of the lord's right to First Night originally about that? We all know that the nobles in the North are rather special and have a history to them, maybe they had a special bloodline that the Others wanted?

Sorry, I went off topic.

[Valyirian Aurochs]

2 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Well, there is a theory that people south of the Wall also used to sacrifice to the Others, hence the Queensgate, which was originally named Snowgate. The theory is that people, or more specifically women, who had a bastard by means of First Night would go to Snowgate and sacrifice their child there, because the bastard last name in the North is Snow and the castle's original name was Snowgate.

But this actually makes me think; was the purpose of the lord's right to First Night originally about that? We all know that the nobles in the North are rather special and have a history to them, maybe they had a special bloodline that the Others wanted?

Sorry, I went off topic.

Either way, it looks like the Night's Watch at least accommodated for giving babies to the others. I feel certain that the Night's Watch and Others were allied in the distant past. 

[kissdbyfire]

@Valyirian Aurochs, it doesn't make much sense for the Wall to be a barrier keeping the free folk "herded" that way. We know it took centuries for the Wall to be built, and thousands of years for it to reach its current height. It would have been very easy for them to escape...

@Khal Varys, if Craster's mum practiced the same "religion", how come Craster himself wasn't given to the WWs?

[Cymorococh]

I wouldn't take anything that Craster says to the Night's watch as anything other than posturing. He's not revealing great secrets, just trying to make himself look good (literally godly).

[Khal Varys]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Valyirian Aurochs, it doesn't make much sense for the Wall to be a barrier keeping the free folk "herded" that way. We know it took centuries for the Wall to be built, and thousands of years for it to reach its current height. It would have been very easy for them to escape...

@Khal Varys, if Craster's mum practiced the same "religion", how come Craster himself wasn't given to the WWs?

I admit my memory is hazy if the information is explicitly out there... but perhaps I phrased that poorly.  Craster's mother was apparently raised in the same context but we're not informed as to whether or not she broke from the practice, but since he is alive the presumption would be that he was spared but maybe older brothers of his were sacrificed.  It is a strange puzzle because all kinds of questions can be raised for why Craster is spared or escapes that fate but then goes on to practice in the same manner.  The point being though that sacrifices have been made in the past and that practice has made it to the present even if Craster represents the last one we see doing it.  

[Weirwood Ghost]

I agree with the presented idea. On my most recent re-read when Jon and Sam say the words of the NIght's watch to the 9 weirwood grove trees of the old gods, I thought of this thing, that the words of the Night's Watch can be seen to be in alliance with the Others:

"Night gathers and now my watch begins, It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.I shall wear no crown and win no glory, I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the night's watch for this night and all nights to come."

The night referred to I wondered it meaning Night's king gathers and his watch, the Night's watch begins.

Sword in the darkness makes no sense. A sword in the darkness means nothing without light. If it's in relation to the Others, then the Night's watch are the sword in the darkness for the Others, they don't appear during the light.

Watcher on the walls, not the wall. The walls pural meaning, other types of walls: Craster was a type of wall, appeasing the Others.

The horn that wakes the sleepers, the horn that wakes the Others.

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Khal Varys said:

I admit my memory is hazy if the information is explicitly out there... but perhaps I phrased that poorly.  Craster's mother was apparently raised in the same context but we're not informed as to whether or not she broke from the practice, but since he is alive the presumption would be that he was spared but maybe older brothers of his were sacrificed.  It is a strange puzzle because all kinds of questions can be raised for why Craster is spared or escapes that fate but then goes on to practice in the same manner.  The point being though that sacrifices have been made in the past and that practice has made it to the present even if Craster represents the last one we see doing it.  

Yeah, we need a lot more info. What little we know at the mo makes me think that this giving of babies is not and was not a common practice among the free folk.

Here's what Ygritte tells Jon.

A Storm of Swords - Jon III 

"Craster weds his daughters," Jon pointed out.

She punched him again. "Craster's more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village, but after he had her he flew back t' his Wall. She went t' Castle Black once t' show the crow his son, but the brothers blew their horns and run her off. Craster's blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse." She ran her fingers lightly across his stomach. "I feared you'd do the same once. Fly back to the Wall. You never knew what t' do after you stole me."

We don't get any hints whatsoever that the free folk ever engaged in this type of "worship". I think Craster is full of it when he claims he is a godly man. I also think his giving sons to the WWs or the cold or whatever it is he's doing just a way of getting rid of the [future] competition. Maybe way back when his first wife gave birth to his first baby boy, he took the baby and left it out to die and it was "taken", and then it became a thing. 

 

[Khal Varys]

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, we need a lot more info. What little we know at the mo makes me think that this giving of babies is not and was not a common practice among the free folk.

Here's what Ygritte tells Jon.

A Storm of Swords - Jon III 

"Craster weds his daughters," Jon pointed out.

She punched him again. "Craster's more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village, but after he had her he flew back t' his Wall. She went t' Castle Black once t' show the crow his son, but the brothers blew their horns and run her off. Craster's blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse." She ran her fingers lightly across his stomach. "I feared you'd do the same once. Fly back to the Wall. You never knew what t' do after you stole me."

We don't get any hints whatsoever that the free folk ever engaged in this type of "worship". I think Craster is full of it when he claims he is a godly man. I also think his giving sons to the WWs or the cold or whatever it is he's doing just a way of getting rid of the [future] competition. Maybe way back when his first wife gave birth to his first baby boy, he took the baby and left it out to die and it was "taken", and then it became a thing. 

 

Ahh thanks, that helps.  The quote about his curse puzzles me, is it a curse born of his deeds or of his father's?  Harren the Black comes to mind but the context otherwise escapes me.

Anyway, yes that appears so much more vague than I made it seem.

I do agree that your assertion is easily possible, but it would seem there is some mystery surrounding the notion that the Others do take the babies and apparently grant some concessions by allowing Craster to live... whether it rises to ritual practice in loose terms is certainly debateable.  

It can be hard to keep the show's interpretation out of my thought processes toward the books.  

I guess I'm of the opinion at the moment that I'd prefer the Others to be their own thing and not the product of the children.  

 

[Vaedys Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Valyirian Aurochs said:

Either way, it looks like the Night's Watch at least accommodated for giving babies to the others. I feel certain that the Night's Watch and Others were allied in the distant past. 

That is what I'm saying.

Sorry if I wasn't very clear, English isn't my first language and I have a very difficult time finding proper words to describe some things.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

10 hours ago, Valyirian Aurochs said:

Craster sacrifices to the Others, so it's the Others he worships when he calls himself a godly man. In this mysterious religion, all we know is that children have to be given to the Others, and in return, those children get turned into more Others, and the cycle repeats. I don't think the Others care much for instilling friendly hospitality in its followers, so it makes me wonder what Crastor meant by the line "I'm a godly man, else I would have chased you off."

I'm going to go on and say that the Night's Watch and the Others were originally allied.

It always bothered me that a wall made of ice is used to protect the world from the Others. The Others probably know more about ice than anyone else, so I always believed that the Others made the Ice wall. I must sound mad, but it doesn't really make sense the other way around. We aren't given much information on Brandon the Builder, so if he did build the Wall, he must at least have had help from the Others.

As to the purpose of the Wall... It might have marked a boundary between humans and Others. If my wild speculation is even half true, it means that the wildlings were nothing but fodder used for mating and giving babies to the Others. The Night's Watch would ensure that no wildlings escape their obligations to the Others. It's all very sinister. Jon's actions in ADwD can be seen as extremely dangerous then. The Night's Watch not only killed Crastor, one of the few, or the last wildling who gave his babies to the Others, but they also let a lot of Wildlings through the Wall as well.

I named this post 'Irresponsible Speculation' because only I'm going off of one line of dialogue. What do all of you think of this weird line?

 

If you read TWOIAF it says and has art of how the wall was constructed.

"Wether the legends are true or not, it is plain that the first men and the children of the forest (and even giants), if we take the words of the singers) feared something enough that it drove them to begin raising the wall."

"Nearby lakes provided the material, which the first men cut into huge blocks and hauled upon sledges to the wall and worked into place one by one.

[Valyirian Aurochs]

8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, we need a lot more info. What little we know at the mo makes me think that this giving of babies is not and was not a common practice among the free folk.

 

In the first Bran chapter in AGoT old nan says:

Quote

The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted the giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

Because Old Nan said so, it must be true. Based on this, I'm assuming that the practice existed before. Instead, during the Long Night the Others themselves mated with women, they did not take babies. There must have been a change afterwards i.e the formation of the Night's Watch and the wall to facilitate for giving babies to the Others.

[Valyirian Aurochs]

7 hours ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

If you read TWOIAF it says and has art of how the wall was constructed.

"Wether the legends are true or not, it is plain that the first men and the children of the forest (and even giants), if we take the words of the singers) feared something enough that it drove them to begin raising the wall."

"Nearby lakes provided the material, which the first men cut into huge blocks and hauled upon sledges to the wall and worked into place one by one.

Kind of reminds me of how Valyrians used fire to shape huge chunks of stones for their roads and castles. So it could be possible that the Others used ice magic to shape ice. And the Wall isn't really made out of blocks of ice if you read the descriptions given in the books. The Wall seems like one continuous piece of ice rather than a wall of ice bricks. TWOIAF is full of accounts written by the maesters, so it's not really reliable for giving us information about how the wall was built. The maesters are not primary sources, they were not there when the wall went up.

There's also a passage in one of the Jon chapters in ADwD where the wall is said to have ripples in it. This also reminds me of the rippling armor of the Others. If you read the prologue of AGoT or Samwell I ASoS, we see descriptions of their rippled icy armor.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Valyirian Aurochs said:

In the first Bran chapter in AGoT old nan says:

Because Old Nan said so, it must be true. Based on this, I'm assuming that the practice existed before. Instead, during the Long Night the Others themselves mated with women, they did not take babies. There must have been a change afterwards i.e the formation of the Night's Watch and the wall to facilitate for giving babies to the Others.

Why? Old Nan is a brilliant storyteller, but that doesn't mean all her stories are true. She knows Bran likes the scary stories, and she obliges. Her stories are a combo of old legends (that probably have some truth in them) and extra scary details she adds herself, for flavour. The hard part is sorting the wheat from the chaff. 

[kissdbyfire]

10 hours ago, Khal Varys said:

Ahh thanks, that helps.  The quote about his curse puzzles me, is it a curse born of his deeds or of his father's?  Harren the Black comes to mind but the context otherwise escapes me.

Well, we are told his father was a black brother, but that's all we have. I tend to think the curse is because of him, not his parents/ancestry. The free folk despise him, and rightly so. Especially because of the incest. Remember Ygritte's reaction when Jon asks her if she and Longspear Ryk were lovers?

A Storm of Swords - Jon III 

 

"A boy at a feast, five years past. He'd come trading with his brothers, and he had hair like mine, kissed by fire, so I thought he would be lucky. But he was weak. When he came back t' try and steal me, Longspear broke his arm and ran him off, and he never tried again, not once."                                                                                                                                           "It wasn't Longspear, then?" Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways. 

She punched him. "That's vile. Would you bed your sister?"

"Longspear's not your brother."

"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clankin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters." 

10 hours ago, Khal Varys said:

Anyway, yes that appears so much more vague than I made it seem.

I do agree that your assertion is easily possible, but it would seem there is some mystery surrounding the notion that the Others do take the babies and apparently grant some concessions by allowing Craster to live... whether it rises to ritual practice in loose terms is certainly debateable.  

 

Part of the problem is the mummer's version. In the books it's not clear at all what happens. 

10 hours ago, Khal Varys said:

It can be hard to keep the show's interpretation out of my thought processes toward the books.  

Brain soak w/ lye.

10 hours ago, Khal Varys said:

I guess I'm of the opinion at the moment that I'd prefer the Others to be their own thing and not the product of the children.  

 

While I think it's possible that the CotF or a faction of the CotF created the WWs, I think it's very possible that they didn't. And as with so many things, it's simply impossible to be certain with the info we have at the mo. I think there's a good chance that the FM of old learned things from the CotF and may have tried something that backfired spectacularly. Mostly because I think it's much more interesting if it's humans fucking everything up to get more power, etc. "The things we (humans) do to one another" is much more compelling imo than "evil species tries to wipe out humankind". 

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Craster's mother gave only her girls to Others. It is known.

[Valyirian Aurochs]

23 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Why? Old Nan is a brilliant storyteller, but that doesn't mean all her stories are true. She knows Bran likes the scary stories, and she obliges. Her stories are a combo of old legends (that probably have some truth in them) and extra scary details she adds herself, for flavour. The hard part is sorting the wheat from the chaff. 

That was meant as sarcasm, but I agree. Legends with a bit of truth in them. Why tell a 7-year-old boy about mating habits of monsters then? I'm sure the part about consorting with giants and ghouls and drinking blood from horns was added by her to make it scarier, but the part about mating with wildlings seems true.

[Valyirian Aurochs]

10 minutes ago, Grazdan zo Azer said:

Craster's mother gave only her girls to Others. It is known.

How is it known?

 

[kissdbyfire]

28 minutes ago, Valyirian Aurochs said:

That was meant as sarcasm, but I agree. Legends with a bit of truth in them. Why tell a 7-year-old boy about mating habits of monsters then? I'm sure the part about consorting with giants and ghouls and drinking blood from horns was added by her to make it scarier, but the part about mating with wildlings seems true.

Sorry, I completely missed it! In my defence I'll say it's an argument I've seen posters making w/ absolute conviction! Like Martin is going to make our lives that easy and have a character just spill the beans like that!