The role of Stannis

[Seams]

Two parts to this post - a comparison to a story from Shakespeare and a possible link between Stannis and Rhaegar. (I'm sure the link is symbolic - I do not mean to imply in any way that Stannis is a secret Targ.)

1. The Tempest.

I've seen a couple productions of Shakespeare's The Tempest over the past couple of years. It struck me recently that Stannis has a number of things in common with Prospero, the Duke of Milan who was winkled (love that word) out of his dukedom by his brother and sent off in a boat to a nearly-deserted island. Here are the elements I see in common:

Stannis would like to be Lord of Storm's End but that job goes to Renly. Then he would like to be King and he comes into conflict with Renly there, too. Propsero's brother Antonio persuades the King of Naples to get rid of Prospero so Antonio can become Duke.

Dragonstone is an island. The action of the Tempest takes place on an island.

Prospero has one daughter, Myranda. Stannis has one daughter, Shireen.

Prospero has a magic sidekick, Ariel, who helps him manipulate circumstances and spy on others. Stannis has a magic sidekick, Melisandre, who helps him manipulate circumstances and spy on others.

Both stories include drowned people or people who had been presumed drowned: Ferdinand, son of the King of Naples, in The Tempest (although the king's entire traveling party also meet the definition); Steffon Baratheon, Cassana Estermont, Patchface and Ser Davos Seaworth in ASOIAF.

Stephano and Trinculo are the clowns in The Tempest; Patchface is the fool in Stannis's circle. (Patchface and Shireen are attached to each other, though. I wonder whether Patchface is supposed to be compared to Ferdinand in some aspects?)

A noble named Gonzalo provides supplies and books of magic owned by Prospero, enabling him and Miranda to survive on the island after being set adrift. Davos provides onions for Stannis, enabling him to survive along with the rest of his court when Dragonstone is under seige.

Prospero has a servant named Caliban, who dislikes Prospero but has a crush on Miranda. Caliban is the son of a dead witch, Sycorax, who imprisoned Ariel in a tree before she died. Prospero rescued Ariel from the tree, which is why Ariel helps Prospero now.

I don't see a clear match for Caliban, unless Maester Cressen has some elements in common with him. But Cressen really likes Stannis - it's Melisandre he dislikes.

The outcome for Prospero is that he gets his daughter and Ferdinand, the Prince of Naples to fall in love, and he wins back his dukedom and will return to the mainland. Ariel is freed. The bad guys are forgiven. I don't know that we will see Stannis return to either Dragonstone or Storm's End, much less secure the title to which he considers himself entitled. I would also be surprised if there is true love and marriage in store for Shireen. So I'm not sure how long GRRM will keep the parallel going between the two stories.

2. Parallel between Stannis and Rhaegar, as well as ancient heroes.

Last year, I started wondering about lists of rumors, and how GRRM might use them to drop hints about plot elements that hadn't yet unfolded. People in the forum offered some great ideas about what the rumors might foreshadow, but we couldn't pin down anything completely.

One of the rumors was from AGoT, Bran VI: One winesodden taleteller even claimed that Rhaegar Targaryen had returned from the dead and was marshaling a vast host of ancient heroes on Dragonstone to reclaim his father’s throne.

@Isobel Harper suggested that this might refer to Aurane Waters, who would eventually pull together a fleet to attack Dragonstone. And that could be accurate - he is a Rhaegar lookalike.

But I recently realized that the line might not be foreshadowing - it might be the author telling us to compare Stannis to Rhaegar. Kind of a surprise. Stannis was on Dragonstone at that point, and he was pulling together an army. Is the army of Stannis comprised of a vast host of ancient heroes? That part might be the kind of dream "frosting" that makes it hard to get to the substance of the author's hint.

Or, possibly, we should be looking for symbolic representatives of ancient heroes and/or Targ loyalists among the characters we will meet surrounding Stannis. Maybe that's why GRRM makes a distinction between the Queen's men, who serve Selyse, and those pledged to Stannis. It might be worth looking at all of the bit players in the Stannis scenes to figure out whether they embody legendary figures.

I think there's a strong possibility that the reference to "ancient heroes" gives us a hint about the character and future of Ser Davos Seaworth.

I wonder whether Cressen also symbolically represents an ancient hero? Do we know any Westeros characters who died trying to stop a sorceress?

But I don't remember seeing elsewhere in this forum a discussion of Stannis as a symbolic Rhaegar. @GloubieBoulga advanced the idea a few months ago that Dolorous Edd is a symbolic version of Ned Stark, and that changed the way I look at a lot of the people surrounding Jon Snow. If there is a symbolic Ned, it makes perfect sense that there would also be a symbolic Rhaegar nearby. I should probably go back and re-read the conversations between Jon Snow and Stannis, pretending that Rhaegar is speaking the lines that come from Stannis.

Targaryens and dragons are traditionally born on Dragonstone - I think dragons born and nurtured there are believed to be stronger than dragons born elsewhere. Making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone may have been a sort of rebirth, and put him in a position to play the role of the "mummer Rhaegar."

What do you think?

If there are other threads with good Stannis / Rhaegar comparisons, I would love to read them. I realize that almost every idea has already been picked apart somewhere in this forum.

[Lollygag]

17 hours ago, Seams said:

Prospero has a servant named Caliban, who dislikes Prospero but has a crush on Miranda. Caliban is the son of a dead witch, Sycorax, who imprisoned Ariel in a tree before she died. Prospero rescued Ariel from the tree, which is why Ariel helps Prospero now.

I don't see a clear match for Caliban, unless Maester Cressen has some elements in common with him. But Cressen really likes Stannis - it's Melisandre he dislikes.

Perhaps there is no Caliban, but maybe Caliban’s mother's history reveals something about Mel’s history? Mel’s mother is theorized to be a Shiera Seastar, a witch who should be dead by this point. Perhaps Shiera (Sycorax) did something to Mel as she’s clearly not normal. Mel isn’t imprisoned in a tree, but she most definitely does not care for them. Perhaps Mel is imprisoned in a different way, trapped? I believe GRRM said that Mel has her own motives, so freeing herself in some way if she’s trapped would certainly qualify as a possibility. Mel is sort of fire wighty like Beric and Stoneheart, though I'm not sure they're exactly the same thing. Curiously, Beric and Stoneheart have very strong ties to weirwoods, as does BR who was in love in Shiera. BR sits a weirwood throne as did Beric (does Stoneheart?), but that throne is a tangle, hence also a trap?

So does Mel believe Azor Ahai in the form of Stannis will somehow free her if she’s trapped? It doesn't seem like Mel is doing this just for selfish reason, so it seems like if she does have a selfish motive, it seems like it would also tie into something larger.

 

17 hours ago, Seams said:

One of the rumors was from AGoT, Bran VI: One winesodden taleteller even claimed that Rhaegar Targaryen had returned from the dead and was marshaling a vast host of ancient heroes on Dragonstone to reclaim his father’s throne.

@Isobel Harper suggested that this might refer to Aurane Waters, who would eventually pull together a fleet to attack Dragonstone. And that could be accurate - he is a Rhaegar lookalike.

I don’t doubt at all that Aurane will make another appearance with his fleet. His grey-green eyes and sabotage of Cersei makes me suspect he’s in the employ of LF. Dany initially confuses Rhaegar for Viserys in her HOTU vision and later remarks that the two are almost identical except their eye colors. Viserys tried to recruit the Golden Company which is comprised of exiled Lords who supported the Blackfyres. Maybe the Golden Company could be interpreted as ancient heroes of a sort depending on who you support and Viserys was trying to get to Dragonstone. (Not totally sure I'm right about this, my Targ history is awful so please correct me if I'm wrong).

 

17 hours ago, Seams said:

But I recently realized that the line might not be foreshadowing - it might be the author telling us to compare Stannis to Rhaegar. Kind of a surprise. Stannis was on Dragonstone at that point, and he was pulling together an army. Is the army of Stannis comprised of a vast host of ancient heroes? That part might be the kind of dream "frosting" that makes it hard to get to the substance of the author's hint.

I think the Mance = Rhaegar crackpot is really picking up on hints that Mance will somehow have a Rhaegar-esque role in the future in that he does something which will move forward whatever Rhaegar was up to either by choice or by coincidence. Whatever Rhaegar was planning for Jon, it seems to be lost as it died with him, Lyanna and Ned if he ever knew anything. Mance could do something somehow to put Jon on the track Rhaegar intended. Now that you mention it, Stannis is in an even better position to do this. Stannis already trying to elevate Jon as the Lord of Winterfell which would seem to at least give Jon the leverage to act if not the direction as to what to do. The Azor Ahai legend could play into this, too since it's now a part of Jon's sphere because of Stannis.

To me, Stannis is already sounding somewhat like an ancient legend himself in the making. With a little twisting, Stannis is a great king who gave up his crown for the greater good. That Stannis saw the greater good as way to get his crown sounds like those less pleasant truths which are left out of the songs.

Stannis is one of the few supporting the Wildlings into the realm. They keep talking about how the kneelers forgot too much. Maybe Stannis is gathering ancient truths, not ancient heroes? On another thread somewhere, I got the idea that we might find out more about the history of Winterfell and the Starks through Stannis with the help of Theon than through the Starks themselves. Stannis is from Storm’s End and no doubt knows it backwards and forwards. It was also built by Bran the Builder. Maybe Bran the Builder or rather info about him and Winterfell and Storm’s End is the ancient hero Stannis gathers?

 

[Seams]

4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Perhaps there is no Caliban, but maybe Caliban’s mother's history reveals something about Mel’s history? Mel’s mother is theorized to be a Shiera Seastar, a witch who should be dead by this point. Perhaps Shiera (Sycorax) did something to Mel as she’s clearly not normal. Mel isn’t imprisoned in a tree, but she most definitely does not care for them. Perhaps Mel is imprisoned in a different way, trapped? I believe GRRM said that Mel has her own motives, so freeing herself in some way if she’s trapped would certainly qualify as a possibility. Mel is sort of fire wighty like Beric and Stoneheart, though I'm not sure they're exactly the same thing. Curiously, Beric and Stoneheart have very strong ties to weirwoods, as does BR who was in love in Shiera. BR sits a weirwood throne as did Beric (does Stoneheart?), but that throne is a tangle, hence also a trap?

So does Mel believe Azor Ahai in the form of Stannis will somehow free her if she’s trapped? It doesn't seem like Mel is doing this just for selfish reason, so it seems like if she does have a selfish motive, it seems like it would also tie into something larger.

I love this! Melisandre as a Caliban / Ariel hybrid. Both of them had reason to dislike Prospero, but Ariel had been promised an end point to her servitude.

Melisandre's religious fervor seems sincere, but I have wondered about her dedication to Stannis. Maybe he is a means to an end. Or maybe she truly believes that he is Azor Ahai.

Some very interesting ideas here. It seemed as if Bloodraven chose the life of sitting in that chair (or, at least, felt an obligation to serve by sitting in that weirwood chair) but maybe he was trapped there, like Ariel trapped by Sycorax. Maybe he escapes by luring a new greenseer to occupy the chair. Sort of like Beric passing the fire kiss to Stoneheart. If Ariel is the model, it will take a Prospero-like magic guy with books (?!) to end the "curse" and truly free these people. Sam Tarly? Tyrion?

Or a guy who resembles Prospero in some aspect without the books. I should have examined Mance, the other Rhaegar doppelganger, in the OP so thank you for bringing him up. Melisandre has Mance under her thumb (or she did, until he went to Winterfell) and Stannis is pretty dependent on her, too. I wonder whether she's working on a "the dragon has three heads" understanding, and is collecting Targ-blooded men until she has three? (This would assume that Mance is a Targ bastard - I think we know only that his father was a member of the Night's Watch, so it could be anyone including Bloodraven, right? Or Maester Aemon? - and that R + L = J.)

4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I think the Mance = Rhaegar crackpot is really picking up on hints that Mance will somehow have a Rhaegar-esque role in the future . . . Whatever Rhaegar was planning for Jon, it seems to be lost as it died with him . . . Now that you mention it, Stannis is in an even better position to do this.

Maybe Bran the Builder or rather info about him and Winterfell and Storm’s End is the ancient hero Stannis gathers?

The Last Hero is supposed to be the sole survivor of a group of thirteen. So maybe the people who die around Jon represent the twelve who sacrifice themselves so he can reach the secret cave of the CotF. This would reunite Jon and Bran, if it's literally true. But Jon's cave could be more symbolic.

Mance and Stannis become father figures for Jon. Of course, Ned and Jeor Mormont also filled that role. As did Qhorin Halfhand, briefly. That's five fathers so far. Six, if Rhaegar counts. Any others? Maester Aemon? Rattleshirt? (I see him as a symbolic Ned figure because Ned was reduced to a collection of bones after his death. And he was also executed in place of Mance.) Each of these men pushes Jon forward in some way, helping him to reach the next stage of his journey.

If Jon was at the Tower of Joy as a baby, maybe even those early deaths count as part of the twelve friends who die.

[Lost Melnibonean]

22 hours ago, Seams said:

I do not mean to imply in any way that Stannis is a secret Targ.)

Stannis is a (not so) secret Targ. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

22 hours ago, Seams said:

1. The Tempest.

I've seen a couple productions of Shakespeare's The Tempest over the past couple of years. It struck me recently that Stannis has a number of things in common with Prospero, the Duke of Milan who was winkled (love that word) out of his dukedom by his brother and sent off in a boat to a nearly-deserted island. Here are the elements I see in common:

Stannis would like to be Lord of Storm's End but that job goes to Renly. Then he would like to be King and he comes into conflict with Renly there, too. Propsero's brother Antonio persuades the King of Naples to get rid of Prospero so Antonio can become Duke.

Dragonstone is an island. The action of the Tempest takes place on an island.

Prospero has one daughter, Myranda. Stannis has one daughter, Shireen.

Prospero has a magic sidekick, Ariel, who helps him manipulate circumstances and spy on others. Stannis has a magic sidekick, Melisandre, who helps him manipulate circumstances and spy on others.

Both stories include drowned people or people who had been presumed drowned: Ferdinand, son of the King of Naples, in The Tempest (although the king's entire traveling party also meet the definition); Steffon Baratheon, Cassana Estermont, Patchface and Ser Davos Seaworth in ASOIAF.

Stephano and Trinculo are the clowns in The Tempest; Patchface is the fool in Stannis's circle. (Patchface and Shireen are attached to each other, though. I wonder whether Patchface is supposed to be compared to Ferdinand in some aspects?)

A noble named Gonzalo provides supplies and books of magic owned by Prospero, enabling him and Miranda to survive on the island after being set adrift. Davos provides onions for Stannis, enabling him to survive along with the rest of his court when Dragonstone is under seige.

Prospero has a servant named Caliban, who dislikes Prospero but has a crush on Miranda. Caliban is the son of a dead witch, Sycorax, who imprisoned Ariel in a tree before she died. Prospero rescued Ariel from the tree, which is why Ariel helps Prospero now.

I don't see a clear match for Caliban, unless Maester Cressen has some elements in common with him. But Cressen really likes Stannis - it's Melisandre he dislikes.

The outcome for Prospero is that he gets his daughter and Ferdinand, the Prince of Naples to fall in love, and he wins back his dukedom and will return to the mainland. Ariel is freed. The bad guys are forgiven. I don't know that we will see Stannis return to either Dragonstone or Storm's End, much less secure the title to which he considers himself entitled. I would also be surprised if there is true love and marriage in store for Shireen. So I'm not sure how long GRRM will keep the parallel going between the two stories.

Nice. Very nice. 

[Seams]

4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Stannis is a (not so) secret Targ. 

Yeah, I figured the Targ heritage might count in favor of the "mummer Rhaegar" notion. Is that what you mean?

[Lost Melnibonean]

22 hours ago, Seams said:

2. Parallel between Stannis and Rhaegar, as well as ancient heroes.

Last year, I started wondering about lists of rumors, and how GRRM might use them to drop hints about plot elements that hadn't yet unfolded. People in the forum offered some great ideas about what the rumors might foreshadow, but we couldn't pin down anything completely.

One of the rumors was from AGoT, Bran VI: One winesodden taleteller even claimed that Rhaegar Targaryen had returned from the dead and was marshaling a vast host of ancient heroes on Dragonstone to reclaim his father’s throne.

@Isobel Harper suggested that this might refer to Aurane Waters, who would eventually pull together a fleet to attack Dragonstone. And that could be accurate - he is a Rhaegar lookalike.

But I recently realized that the line might not be foreshadowing - it might be the author telling us to compare Stannis to Rhaegar. Kind of a surprise. Stannis was on Dragonstone at that point, and he was pulling together an army. Is the army of Stannis comprised of a vast host of ancient heroes? That part might be the kind of dream "frosting" that makes it hard to get to the substance of the author's hint.

Or, possibly, we should be looking for symbolic representatives of ancient heroes and/or Targ loyalists among the characters we will meet surrounding Stannis. Maybe that's why GRRM makes a distinction between the Queen's men, who serve Selyse, and those pledged to Stannis. It might be worth looking at all of the bit players in the Stannis scenes to figure out whether they embody legendary figures.

I think there's a strong possibility that the reference to "ancient heroes" gives us a hint about the character and future of Ser Davos Seaworth.

I wonder whether Cressen also symbolically represents an ancient hero? Do we know any Westeros characters who died trying to stop a sorceress?

But I don't remember seeing elsewhere in this forum a discussion of Stannis as a symbolic Rhaegar. @GloubieBoulga advanced the idea a few months ago that Dolorous Edd is a symbolic version of Ned Stark, and that changed the way I look at a lot of the people surrounding Jon Snow. If there is a symbolic Ned, it makes perfect sense that there would also be a symbolic Rhaegar nearby. I should probably go back and re-read the conversations between Jon Snow and Stannis, pretending that Rhaegar is speaking the lines that come from Stannis.

Targaryens and dragons are traditionally born on Dragonstone - I think dragons born and nurtured there are believed to be stronger than dragons born elsewhere. Making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone may have been a sort of rebirth, and put him in a position to play the role of the "mummer Rhaegar."

What do you think?

If there are other threads with good Stannis / Rhaegar comparisons, I would love to read them. I realize that almost every idea has already been picked apart somewhere in this forum.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/104421-moments-of-foreshadowing-8-tpatq-spoilers/&do=findComment&comment=5570391

That's what I think.

[Seams]

3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/104421-moments-of-foreshadowing-8-tpatq-spoilers/&do=findComment&comment=5570391

That's what I think.

Very good! That would fit very well. With Dany's new "dragonstone" (the place where she hangs out with Drogon after leaving the fighting pit) it could refer to her, too, I suppose. But the "ancient heroes" fits the Golden Company very well.

[Ser Petyr Parker]

I'm not familiar with the Tempest, but these are interesting ideas. Something no one has pointed out (maybe because it was too obvious...) is that a tempest is a storm.

On 19/07/2017 at 2:49 AM, Seams said:

when Dragonstone is under seige

I don't think it spoils your idea, but it was Storm's End that was besieged when Davos sneaked in to save Stannis and co.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

Very interesting

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 7/19/2017 at 7:07 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Stannis is a (not so) secret Targ. 

YET!

[Seams]

13 hours ago, Ser Petyr Parker said:

I'm not familiar with the Tempest, but these are interesting ideas. Something no one has pointed out (maybe because it was too obvious...) is that a tempest is a storm.

I don't think it spoils your idea, but it was Storm's End that was besieged when Davos sneaked in to save Stannis and co.

Oops! Good point. Thanks.