Where is the love?

[LongRider]

nevermind.     ~~~~vomit~~~~

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, Nasty LongRider said:

nevermind.     ~~~~vomit~~~~

Been a lot of that in this thread recently.

[LongRider]

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Been a lot of that in this thread recently.

Lord Varys now has as another 'thread successfully derailed' notch in his belt and also a new 'Bran will grow up to be bestiality warg' notch too.  He must be so proud.      

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sex is discussed in Bran's chapters on occasion, he even witness some of the Winterfell folk having sex during the harvest feast. And he knows he'll never have children. This is an issue for him.

Sure it is. I remember a passage - during the Harvest Feast when the Hornwood situation is being discussed iirc - where he clearly thinks that "men sleep on top of women". They're talking about Wyman Manderly and Lady Hornwood. But that doesn't mean anything in terms of his own "sexual awakening" as you put it. In fact, his thoughts are the opposite of sexual. He's a very young boy who thinks men sleep on top of women, and he's got no clue why that is. 

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We learn from Haggon via Varamyr's Prologue that having sex as an animal is an abomination. Well, it is still interesting and something skinchanger is going to try out. And Bran is especially dangerous in that regard because he is such a young child who is willing to explore and investigate things that interest him, especially if he can be sure that nobody looks. That's why he takes over Hodor as often as he does. Right now he only wants to be with and close to Meera but we have to wait and see how that continues.

To be honest, I probably would too. At least once out of curiousity. Also, if I were in the exact same situation (and age) he is, I'd probably do those things too, including slipping into Hodor to go exploring. But I think plot wise his skinchanging Hodor is more like a necessary training phase. 

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

In addition, the boy will soon carry the weight of the world on his shoulders, knowing about/witnessing countless of (doomed) love stories in the past, watching generations of Starks being born, living their lives, having sex, and growing old. Whatever innocence he has left will disappear very quickly. Just imagine what it would do to you to know what Bran will soon know.

I can't even imagine it, and I agree, he will soon carry the weight of the world on his shoulders. 

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Bran developed the ability to take over the bodies of humans far away (not sure if that's going to work) he could even indulge himself there in various ways. He would most likely do that kind of thing to help in the fight against the Others but you can combine business and pleasure, after all.

He will develop that ability and it will come into play sooner rather than later. As to mixing business and pleasure, I'm not so sure... fighting to save humankind from annihilation is not exactly "business as usual", and certainly not something that will allow for a lot of free time to indulge in anything.

But I'm still confused... b/c you said "Bran's rather early sexual awakening", and the way that's phrased means he has had a rather early sexual awakening, and he hasn't, not even close. And I still don't understand why you think he has? 

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 That's a very sweet puppy love a boy who is 10/11 and has gone though all the things Bran has gone through develops for an older girl he sees as a hero in a way.  

Yes, Bran's crush on Meera is cute. But at the same time, it's so real because even children or pre-teens are able to experience real and intense romantic feelings. It's a bit sad sometimes Reading his POV, yet at the same time, I feel he really loves her, and it's so moving when he wants to be with her, or wonders what would Meera think about his feelings. They are so real....

[Meera of Tarth]

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Ygritte and Val were mentioned before starting here I believe.  It just got a little buried in the thread.  But if you have more to add to these guys, please do!  

It would be nice if we could steer this thread back to discussing love in the series and away from who is the bigger murderer...

Yes, it would be nice to stay on topic to actually discuss LOVE

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, Nasty LongRider said:

I enjoyed Jon and Yrgitte's love story because it was a story of how two very different people from different cultures could come together.  Because of these differences, and the fact that Jon basically was living a lie and he fully intended to return to the Wall and NW, but had to keep that secret, created 'the conflict in the human heart' which the author wanted to portray.  While Ygritte's death was a bit cliché, it did give the arc a clean ending.  

With that experience under his belt Jon cautioned Sam about Sam's growing feelings for Gilly, and then threw them together for a trip far away from CB and the NW vows.  Sam soon had to deal with some of the guilt and confusion Jon did when was involved with Ygritte.  Both women, at least for a time with Ygritte, seemed to feel that they were wives of their crow.  Ygritte because she was 'stolen' by Jon and then chose him as well, and Gilly because she chose Sam "I am your wife" she said just before the first time they made love and Sam answered "Yes."  We don't yet know how the Sam and Gilly pairing will be resolved, hopefully GRRM will avoid another cliché death of the woman. 

I've never been a Jon fangirl nor a very fan of Ygritte and Jon's romance at first, but in my re-readings I've come to appreciate it, and now I find it amazing. There was lot of conflict as you point out, and it's a sad but good love story.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

2 hours ago, Nasty LongRider said:

This thread is off topic and derailed by LV on a subject that's been discussed on hundreds of threads.  Please don't feed the troll and get back to discussing the OP.

I agree with you.  I went back and read my post and realized it may have sounded like I was accusing you of derailing the thread.  I know it wasn't you.  I apologize my wording made it seem that way.  I was truly just trying to link to a spot we were talking about Val and Ygritte and if there's anything you would like to add.  I think Sansa x Sandor and Arya x Gendry have been covered pretty thoroughly and I'd like to see some more examples of different types of love.  Unrequited, star-crossed, "unhealthy," or whatever we can think of.  It's interesting to see why people think George made X character attracted to Y character or the subtle ways he conveys chemistry between two personality types.  

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

Getting back to the OP:  The reason we don't see more happy, loving couples (and families) is that they aren't usually the subject of stories, unless it is to break them up, as with the Starks.  I am sure that there are plenty of happy couples and familis (or would be, if it were a real place), they just aren't who the story is about.

Well yes, it certainly serves a plot purpose to break them up.  I think we don't see a lot of happy couples of true compatibility because the system isn't really set up for that.  This is a story mostly told by nobles.  I do think most parents do try to make sure their children are matched with someone that will treat them well, but it's usually always in the confines of someone within a strict set of class boundaries. Ned and Cat are such a rare exception that found love in an arranged marriage.  Even in real life all our relationships will end until you find one that doesn't.  To find real love the way Cat and Ned did seems even more rare than even real life people with options.  You also mentioned Tywin and Joanna, which I agree, he seems to have truly loved her.  He was also the lord and had the advantage of being able to choose for himself.  We have a lot of family tragedy depicted in the story that is the result of really terrible marriages.  And then you have people that could really be a good fit for each other (and probably raise some happy kids) kept apart because of even minor disparities in social status.  I think George really shows us the glaring things wrong with the "right and proper way" of bringing people together in their society.

3 hours ago, Nevets said:

Roslin seems to love Edmure, so that pairing has some hope for it.  I also think Jeyne Westerling and Robb were genuinely in love as well, and Jeyne still is.

Yeah, I do want to see what's going to happen with Roslin and Edmure.  For all his faults, Edmure is a pretty decent guy that would probably make a very good husband.  I have to wonder slightly how strong Robb's feelings were after he decided to do the honorable thing and marry Jeyne.  No doubt Jeyne feels very strongly about Robb.  Robb seem to (and maybe this was because of the stress he was under) shut Jeyne out emotionally.  She even goes to Catelyn for advice on how to approach him.  They do clearly have an active sex life, which is probably good for them both but Robb is also very motivated to get an heir quickly.  Then Robb dies and he's forever fixed in time as the young, dashing hero brought down by treachery.  He's never going to be a "real" guy after the honeymoon has worn off and she's never going to really clash with his faults as you normally do in marriage.  Some things we may never get to know since he's dead.  I do think Robb would have made a good faith effort to make Jeyne happy if he wasn't busy fighting a war.        

              

 

[desire]

I feel the weight of the world on my shoulder
As I'm getting older, y'all people gets colder
Most of us only care about money-makin'
Selfishness got us followin' the wrong direction
Wrong information always shown by the media
Negative images is the main criteria
Infecting the young minds faster than bacteria
Kids wanna act like what they see in the cinema
Whatever happened to the values of humanity?
Whatever happened to the fairness and equality?
Instead of spreadin' love we spreadin' animosity
Lack of understandin' leading us away from unity
That's the reason why sometimes I'm feelin' under
That's the reason why sometimes I'm feelin' down
It's no wonder why sometimes I'm feelin' under
Gotta keep my faith alive 'til love is found
Now ask yourself…

[SeanF]

 

7 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 

Yeah, I do want to see what's going to happen with Roslin and Edmure.  For all his faults, Edmure is a pretty decent guy that would probably make a very good husband.  I have to wonder slightly how strong Robb's feelings were after he decided to do the honorable thing and marry Jeyne.  No doubt Jeyne feels very strongly about Robb.  Robb seem to (and maybe this was because of the stress he was under) shut Jeyne out emotionally.  She even goes to Catelyn for advice on how to approach him.  They do clearly have an active sex life, which is probably good for them both but Robb is also very motivated to get an heir quickly.  Then Robb dies and he's forever fixed in time as the young, dashing hero brought down by treachery.  He's never going to be a "real" guy after the honeymoon has worn off and she's never going to really clash with his faults as you normally do in marriage.  Some things we may never get to know since he's dead.  I do think Robb would have made a good faith effort to make Jeyne happy if he wasn't busy fighting a war.        

              

 

Jeyne unfortunately has the mother from hell.

I fear for Roslyn, if (as I anticipate) the Tully partisans and BWB go on the rampage against the Freys.  Edmure would surely wish to protect her, but his supporters might just take matters into their own hands.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Can I respectfully request that we stick to the topic. It is very rare that we get a romance thread on the boards and there is good discussion happening. Whilst I understand that Arya's state of mind can be thought relevant to whether or not she would be likely to fall in love and that there is a debate to be had surrounding that concept. I don't think allowing things to descend into a debate about Dany's killings V's Arya's killings is helpful to the topic. 

 

 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

 A while ago I was looking into Brienne specifically in relation to her true knight status. And I found she has a whole bunch of Moonmaiden symbolism around her too.  And when I was looking at the constellations because of the sword of the morning connections. I found this little beauty. 

Quote

The Moonmaid, shy as ever, was half-hidden behind a pine tree. How can such a night be beautiful? he asked himself. Why would the stars want to look down on such as me?

"Jaime," Brienne whispered, so faintly he thought he was dreaming it. "Jaime, what are you doing?"

 

Here Brienne is the Moodmaid, she is shy and he wonders how such a Knight could be beautiful. Ostensibly he is talking about the night is unlikely to be beautiful because he's just had his hand chopped off. But he's talking about Brienne.  Then he asks why would the stars want to look down on such as me?  He's thinking this because the stars are too good to be looking down at him because his opinion of himself is so low. He's failed at being the true Knight he dreamt he'd be. So the stars are Brienne, she's the Moonmaid! And he's wondering why she'd want to look at him? Given his soiled Knight status v's her true Knight status and her being Beautiful despite her physically failing as the ideal of Westerosi beauty. 

I've included her words to him, as though they don't have any direct bearing on the analogy I think the fact this takes place in her presence is pertinent and also the wording of her concern for his welfare being whispered in such a faint voice he thinks he is dreaming it. He then tells her he is dying and she tells him he isn't allowed to die. I love that as it is cementing the relationship as it goes forth. She's strong for him when he is at his weakest, tending him, keeping him going, helping him stay alive after the loss of his sword hand. He falls in love with her and she him and then, of course, he goes on to risk life and limb for her in the bear pit and to defend her honour by hitting Red Ronnet, gives her Oathkeeper etc.  

[Jordan La Cabra]

A lot of the key events in the series happen 'due' to love.

The Rebellion is a major example. The main trigger was Rhaegar 'taking' Lyanna, who Robert loved. Whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other is still up for debate. I, personally, prefer to sit on the side that believes there was love between them, even if it was just Lyanna towards Rhaegar. She definitely didn't love Robert, that much seems clear.

Jaime was willing to kill young Bran Stark in the same grounds as Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon for 'love' when Bran caught Jaime and Cersei at it.

Lysa Arryn killed Jon Arryn because she was tricked into believing Littlefinger loved her. We know he didn't, of course. But it was Lysa's mad love for Littlefinger that led her to doing it. This made Robert coming calling for to Ned become Hand, which led to Ned finding out about the love between Jaime and Cersei, being killed and ultimately the beginning of another war when Robb takes up arms.

Robb got himself, his mother and his bannermen killed because he fell in love with Jeyne Westerling when he was betrothed to a Frey girl.

The consequences of love are shown a lot more than acts of love. We saw little of Robb's interaction with Jeyne. We didn't even see them meet or fall in love or make love, but we saw the effects that al that had on Westeros.

In war times I'd imagine it to be pretty difficult to find love. Most of the relationships we see people 'ship' are ideas based around unlikely characters that have almost happened upon each other in the story: Jaime/Brienne / Sansa/Sandor / Gendry/Arya. Other than that, relationships are usually arranged by Kings and Lords for a bit of power play: Sansa/Joffrey / Sansa/Tyrion / Margeary/Joffrey. The 'real' loving relationships usually end in disaster or death: Ned/Cat / Dany/Drogo / Robb/Jeyne / Jon/Ygritte.

In answer to the OP 'where is the love?' Well, it is everywhere in the series. A large amount of what happens in this series is because of love. But because it is rare that love is ever successful or that it doesn't end in one (or both) of the lovers dying, we forget that it's even there.

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

18 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Thank you!

On another note (and I've seen this come up before) is that Arya is not capable of having attractions because of her age.  Uh, Sansa at about 8 or 9 thought Waymar Royce (who was in his mid teens) was dreamy.  Bran at the same age has a little puppy love crush on 16 year old Meera. It's all very cute and innocent.  This isn't abnormal.  I distinctly remember being in that age group and having discussions with classmates about who we thought was cute.  Remember passing these notes in class:  Do you like me?  Check yes or no.   Just because it's not the more overtly romantic or sexual attraction of teenagers and adults, doesn't mean it doesn't count as a legitimate attraction or desire for for someone to reciprocate the feeling.  Even if it's just hand-holding or playing together.  I do like how George has captured being at an age where you're hovering between knowing things and not knowing things.  Arya is mostly a very practical, no-nonsense person, so she wouldn't really express attraction with blatant heart-eyes like her sister.  I think it's pretty obvious she takes notice of Gendry physically nonetheless.  

Twice she's taken a good look at his bare chest.  Both times she's not looked at him that way face to face, but from afar and secretly to herself. The above is especially described in pretty sensual terms.  Gendry looks exactly like young Robert, so I think we can safely say he's a very conventionally attractive guy.  Her actions and unfiltered thoughts betray her, no matter what she says out loud or gives deliberate thought to.

Right.  We're constantly getting a juxtaposition of dogs and wolves.  Dogs are descended from wolves.  Sandor himself in physical description and in his values just seems like a displaced Northman living in a southron world.  I also think house Clegane as a holdfast is gone.  Gregor's dead.  Sandor left Lannister service for good.  It's a house of nightmares anyway.  It hasn't really been gotten around to, but the Lannister's are within their rights to reclaim it and give it to another vassal.  Plus Gregor really made the name so infamous and hated throughout Westeros, there's nothing Sandor could really do to change that.  It's been nothing but a stigma for him, even if he has pride in what his grandfather did.  I think he would be better suited to taking the Stark name and becoming a direwolf.  And I found the precedent for it.  Joffrey Lannister, born Joffrey Lydden.  Married King Gerold III Lannister's daughter and took her name when House Lannister had no male issue.  House Lannister was about to go extinct.  Very interestingly this was also a case of a knight, Ser Joffrey, who married a princess and became King of the Westerlands.  Not saying that's what I think will exactly happen in a Sansan endgame, but I'm just pointing out it's rare but pairings like this can happen.  George tends to give us some sort of historic parallel so when rare events happen, it's not out of left field completely.  It's within the "rules" of the canon.            

A few times she's licked / kissed by a dog or wolf.  

The dog is certainly a parallel with Sandor's state of mind while he's in Arya's arc.  He's certainly regretful of leaving her and looking for ways to get back to her.  Hmmmm.  Might have to amend some of my essay.  Bryen / Byron.  Bryen's "sleeping dog."  Kiss / lick on the hand.  Byron's kiss on the hand.      

 The same dog she will wish were Lady, her wolf, after she awakens from an erotic dream where Tyrion is replaced by Sandor in the marriage bed.  He "devours" her with his eyes which is the very definition of being "wolfish."  So by wishing the dog were her wolf, dream of the marriage bed, it might be a foreshadowing of turning the Dog into a Direwolf through marriage.    

Yes, I recall my first crush on a boy I was about 8, he was an American kid who's dad had been posted to RAF Fylingdales (that's our early warning system and it's a stone's throw from our town.) He was totally uninterested in me but I Luffed him and his funny accent and his floppy black hair and dark eyes. 

Arya definitely spends a lot of time gazing at Gendry's muscular body and as he indeed is tall, has that perfect inverted V body type and is built but not stupid big and has dark black curls and piercing blue eyes chances are he's fit as fuck.  We can't blame Arya for taking advantage of how often he has his top off.  And at her age, it's that mixture of knowing you like what you see but not really understanding why. Which is fine.  And the entire set up is for a pay off later on when they meet back up. She's on the cusp of flowering, growing taller, people commenting on how pretty she is etc. I really think that just as Swans are a theme in her arc, she'll be the "ugly" Cygnet who fledges into a stunning swan and we will get that classic Tom Boy got hot trope playing out when they meet back up, and that the attraction is of course well backed up by them having a bonding experience of struggling in the RL's relying upon one another and that they actually liked one another as people prior to anything else.  Lets say she's 12/13 when they meet again, she's almost 12 maybe actually 12 now after all. So she would most likely be 13 coming up 14. that makes him 16 maybe 17. Well, that's not so weird. My boyfriend at 14 was 17 but as I've said I couldn't give a shit about the age gaps.  I also don't think her trauma would affect the ability to fall in love or have a relationship. People saying such things have obviously led very sheltered lives. Trauma does not stop people being interested in sex or relationships. Sometimes it does yes. But it is not a given and the type which does result in a lack of interest in sex usually stems from sexual abuse. Even then it is not a guarantee. It can even go the other way. Arya has not been raped. She's experienced horrifying things but this would not in my opinion or experience as someone who actually has CPTSD mean she automatically can not fall in love.  In fact, people who have had dreadful childhoods often have multiple relationships and are very passionate people. This is the kind of love many like to dismiss as not real, which is very offensive really. People who've had shit childhoods tend to flock together and I've got a few friends with this type of personality as a result and their feelings are no less real than anyone else's

I'm in total agreement regarding your comments on Sandor here. 

I read your Hedge Knights essay last night, and I loved it. I never felt the Howland as the Mad Mouse theory held much water before I'd heard of it in passing and admit I'd dismissed it. But I actually really found myself nodding along. My only objection to this theory is that if the three men succeed in taking Sansa from the Vale, how can she kill LF in her Castle made of snow? Which I think will be WF? she's have parted ways with him by the time she heads north. I don't wish to derail this great thread though. So don't feel you have to answer me here. We could PM if you like.  But yes, it was a fantastic read. thank you. 

. .

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sure it is. I remember a passage - during the Harvest Feast when the Hornwood situation is being discussed iirc - where he clearly thinks that "men sleep on top of women". They're talking about Wyman Manderly and Lady Hornwood. But that doesn't mean anything in terms of his own "sexual awakening" as you put it. In fact, his thoughts are the opposite of sexual. He's a very young boy who thinks men sleep on top of women, and he's got no clue why that is. 

Oh, I didn't mean that 'Bran the boy' already had a sexual awakening. That didn't happen as of yet, at least not on page. But sex has been strangely present and a topic in his story despite the fact that he is the youngest child POV. But we should keep in mind that desires and traits of the animals he merges will bleed back into him. We got the description of the various freak skinchanger Varamyr remembers from that gathering.

The idea is that if Bran is Summer while he has sex with the female wolf from Varamyr's pack, say, he'll explore that.

And I'm pretty sure Bran knows what sex is. He has mentioned he has seen the animals doing it, after all. That is also curious considering that no other child character gets this kind of talk about sex. 

Quote

To be honest, I probably would too. At least once out of curiousity. Also, if I were in the exact same situation (and age) he is, I'd probably do those things too, including slipping into Hodor to go exploring. But I think plot wise his skinchanging Hodor is more like a necessary training phase.

We have to wait and see. If the whole 'Meera crush' is going to be explored more it could be done through Hodor. As you may know I don't think Bran will ever leave that cave again, especially not while winter and the Others are out there (perhaps he can go out again next spring, I don't know) but the chances are very hard that Jojen and Meera are eventually trying to get back to the Wall. And Hodor-Bran is most likely going to accompany them. Eventually Bran might speak with Hodor's mouth and tell Meera what he feels.

Quote

I can't even imagine it, and I agree, he will soon carry the weight of the world on his shoulders.

Well, we can try. Doing that is important if you want to figure what role and relevance 'normal human feelings' will have in Bran's life. Essentially he is very likely to come to perceive humans as just another species of animals among many. And even if he is not going to go down that road he'll still know so much over the history of mankind in Westeros that the desires and wishes, etc. of individuals will no longer be as important to him as they are to normal people.

One really wonders how he is going to feel when he finds out why the Others are doing what they are doing. They will have a pretty good reason, most likely.

Quote

He will develop that ability and it will come into play sooner rather than later. As to mixing business and pleasure, I'm not so sure... fighting to save humankind from annihilation is not exactly "business as usual", and certainly not something that will allow for a lot of free time to indulge in anything.

See the Meera example above. Any other such thing is only going to work if he was forced for some reason to take over an important person permanently, and then has to stay in character, not rejecting sexual advances, etc. But I'm not sure we are going to see that kind of thing. But there are people speculating about Bran/Bloodraven possessing a lot of people.

Quote

But I'm still confused... b/c you said "Bran's rather early sexual awakening", and the way that's phrased means he has had a rather early sexual awakening, and he hasn't, not even close. And I still don't understand why you think he has? 

See above. It was more about the presence of/talk about sex in his chapters in comparison to the other children.

10 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I've never been a Jon fangirl nor a very fan of Ygritte and Jon's romance at first, but in my re-readings I've come to appreciate it, and now I find it amazing. There was lot of conflict as you point out, and it's a sad but good love story.

It is an interesting and well-written short-term affair. But it was something that couldn't last. They both knew that from the start. And that added even more fire and passion to it. But it was quite clear that these two could never live together permanently, even under better circumstances. They are far too different for that.

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Jeyne unfortunately has the mother from hell.

For Robb and Jeyne this thing was real, too. It is a nice adolescent romance and certainly the one that could have been the happiest under slightly different circumstances. However, we don't know how much of it goes back to Robb's emotional vulnerability due to the fact that it started when he learned about Bran/Rickon.

Is anybody out there who lost his father and two brothers and then just threw himself into a sexual relationship to fight against his or her grief? That could have played a huge part on Robb's part. Still, Jeyne is a pretty, nice, and honest girl. And they were into each other very much.

Quote

I fear for Roslin, if (as I anticipate) the Tully partisans and BWB go on the rampage against the Freys.  Edmure would surely wish to protect her, but his supporters might just take matters into their own hands.

Roslin-Edmure basically are a joke. I'm not even sure George is all that sincere about Edmure loving her. I mean, he met her for the first time during the Red Wedding and she knew about the whole thing and didn't say anything to anyone. Is one night with her enough for him to actually fall in love with her or is this some weird form of the Stockholm syndrome or is not just pitying her or wanting to protect her from her sick family?

In any case, if Catelyn is going to free Edmure and Roslin alive Edmure might very well be forced to watch Roslin being hanged by his undead sister. That is not exactly a far-fetched prospect.

A romance/love I find eerily touching is Roose-Walda. Roose really seems to feel genuine affection for the woman at least insofar as he is capable of doing so.

And just for the record:

I entered this thread with a post giving the reason as to why I find it unlikely that Arya-Gendry will ever end up together as well as giving my reasons why I find it unlikely that a character like Arya is ever going to start a serious romantic relationship on the pages of those novels (an Arya in her twenties is a different matter entirely). If you want to talk Arya-Gendry or Arya-X you have consider who and what she became. You cannot just ignore what she went through and what she did.

[LongRider]

10 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I agree with you.  I went back and read my post and realized it may have sounded like I was accusing you of derailing the thread.  I know it wasn't you.  I apologize my wording made it seem that way.  I was truly just trying to link to a spot we were talking about Val and Ygritte and if there's anything you would like to add.  I think Sansa x Sandor and Arya x Gendry have been covered pretty thoroughly and I'd like to see some more examples of different types of love.  Unrequited, star-crossed, "unhealthy," or whatever we can think of.  It's interesting to see why people think George made X character attracted to Y character or the subtle ways he conveys chemistry between two personality types.  

I appreciate this BEW, however, I did not take it as you thinking I derailed the thread.  no harm, no foul!   

[Jordan La Cabra]

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

I entered this threat with a post giving the reason as to why I find it unlikely that Arya-Gendry ever end up together as well as giving my reasons why I find it unlikely that a character like Arya is ever going to start a serious romantic relationship on the pages of those novels (an Arya in her twenties is a different matter entirely). If you want to talk Arya-Gendry or Arya-X you have consider who and what she became. You cannot just ignore what she went through and what she did.

I agree that it won't be as simple for Arya to just 'switch off' and go back to being pre-war Arya again. But do you not think that Arya being introduced to or reintroduced to a character somewhere along the line that could help her come to terms with it all and maybe even then be a love interest could be a possibility?

I don't believe that what she has become is now the be all and end all of her character. I think there is more planned for her than to just go down the route of a psychopathic serial killer.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes, I recall my first crush on a boy I was about 8, he was an American kid who's dad had been posted to RAF Fylingdales (that's our early warning system and it's a stone's throw from our town.) He was totally uninterested in me but I Luffed him and his funny accent and his floppy black hair and dark eyes.

I had my first 'crush' at the age of 4-5, and another at 7-8, too, but to depict such things realistically is, perhaps, the topic for a children's book but not something we have to dwell upon or delve into a story like this. Unless it is really relevant for the plot.

When we are talking romances we are talking about the things people from adolescence onwards usually do. Stuff that involves kissing and fondling and sex and a deep feeling of desire and belonging, etc. And I really have trouble seeing any of that happening with any of the children (Bran excluded, if he uses other people/beings as his own extensions). Even Sansa is too young to enter into a serious relationship (and far too wary/traumatized to ever allow her emotions to get the better of her).

But I have a general question:

Can anyone who invests so much time and effort looking for clues that might foreshadow some sort of relationship between this or that character explain to me why he or she thinks this should actually happen? Most of the actual romances in the books (Robb-Jeyne, Dany-Daario, Jon-Ygritte, Tyrion-Tysha, Tyrion-Shae, etc.) come out of nowhere and not foreshadowed by anything in the books. Why then should Arya-Gendry or Sandor-Sansa spending time together and perhaps feeling some sort of attraction to each other result in them ever having a relationship?

And what would the point of those two relationships in relation to the overall plot? I can hardly imagine anything more boring than chapters dealing with an Arya-Gendry relationship. It wouldn't exactly allow her to be relevant in relation to the important overall plot. And the very idea of Sansa ever having sex with a drunken and ugly brute like Sandor is disgusting for me. The man might want to be gentle, etc. but he can't. That much is clear from his entire attitude. People like him want to be saved, want to be nice, etc. but they want to hurt the people they desire even more. Because it would be a weakness to admit that they need other people.

[Jordan La Cabra]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But I have a general question:

Can anyone who invests so much time and effort looking for clues that might foreshadow some sort of relationship between this or that character explain to me why he or she thinks this should actually happen? Most of the actual romances in the books (Robb-Jeyne, Dany-Daario, Jon-Ygritte, Tyrion-Tysha, Tyrion-Shae, etc.) come out of nowhere and not foreshadowed by anything in the books. Why then should Arya-Gendry or Sandor-Sansa spending time together and perhaps feeling some sort of attraction to each other result in them ever having a relationship?

And what would the point of those two relationships in relation to the overall plot? I can hardly imagine anything more boring than chapters dealing with an Arya-Gendry relationship. It would exactly allow her to be relevant in relation to the important overall plot. And the very idea of Sansa ever having sex with a drunken and ugly brute like Sandor is disgusting for me. The man might want to be gentle, etc. but he can't. That much is clear from his entire attitude. People like him want to be saved, want to be nice, etc. but they want to hurt the people they desire even more. Because it would be a weakness to admit that they need other people.

It's because people (I can be prone to it too) take everything as foreshadowing. All the time Arya spends with Gendry, the fact they get along, the fact that she looks at his muscled chest a few times, the fact she is high born and he is low born, people like to read into these things as potential for a fairytale. It helps that Arya is a popular character and most people want some happy ending for her.

How many times in your life have you looked at someone you spent time with when you were young and found them attractive or got along with them, yet maybe after that you changed school or they moved house and you never saw them again? Well, in a series of books, people pay attention to these things more and see it as foreshadowing. Arya spends time with Gendry > they get along > she notices his muscles chest > they come from different backgrounds > they are separated. Automatically people think that because of their interactions, when they meet again it is set up for them to fall in love.

The Sansa and Sandor one is different but based on foreshadowing and people expecting characters to 'change what they want' through time. Sansa dreams of knights in shining armour and pretty princes like Joffrey, but she sees what he is and what the rest of his Kingsguard are like. She sees the only one of those 'knights' that gave her anytime was the ugly brute of a man that may or may not have kissed her.

All these things could just have been moments in time, but people like to look at them as a bit more than that - especially when it comes to 'love' stories.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

It's because people (I can be prone to it too) take everything as foreshadowing.

Well, they should not. But the question was more why people make such a fuzz about subtle clues that may or may not be there instead of actually envisioning how an Arya-Gendry or Sandor-Sansa relationship could play out.

I'm trying to do that and it is very difficult to imagine. Perhaps that's the reason why people seldom try to paint a picture how this could work.

If anybody out there thinks he or she has a good picture of that please present it. I'm interested in that. That is, assuming this doesn't derail the thread.

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

All the time Arya spends with Gendry, the fact they get along, the fact that she looks at his muscled chest a few times, the fact she is high born and he is low born, people like to read into these things as potential for a fairytale. It helps that Arya is a popular character and most people want some happy ending for her.

I honestly don't think love of any kind would be a good ending for Arya. But, yeah, I theoretically know why people ship characters. I just don't think it is a very productive exercise.

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

How many times in your life have you looked at someone you spent time with when you were young and found them attractive or got along with them, yet maybe after that you changed school or they moved house and you never saw them again? Well, in a series of books, people pay attention to these things more and see it as foreshadowing. Arya spends time with Gendry > they get along > she notices his muscles chest > they come from different backgrounds > they are separated. Automatically people think that because of their interactions, when they meet again it is set up for them to fall in love.

But that's the thing. This isn't the kind of series that follows such a trivial and predictable formula. Who didn't think that the Robb-Joffrey quarrel back in AGoT was setting up some sort of future clash between these two? But they never met again. Who did expect that Tyrion and not some Stark (or Martell) would kill Tywin? Who did expect that the Tyrells would kill Joffrey? Who did expect that literally nothing would come of the clansmen-Tyrion hookup?

Things are more complicated than that.

1 hour ago, JordanJH1993 said:

The Sansa and Sandor one is different but based on foreshadowing and people expecting characters to 'change what they want' through time. Sansa dreams of knights in shining armour and pretty princes like Joffrey, but she sees what he is and what the rest of his Kingsguard are like. She sees the only one of those 'knights' that gave her anytime was the ugly brute of a man that may or may not have kissed her.

All these things could just have been moments in time, but people like to look at them as a bit more than that - especially when it comes to 'love' stories.

Well, Sandor certainly influenced Sansa's developing romantic and sexual preferences. Yet that doesn't mean she will turn out to be really into him but rather men like him. Sandor on the other hand seems to be pretty over this Sansa thing which for him most likely was more a symbol of the innocent boy he himself once was than an actual deep-seated love. And in that sense Sandor is essentially a mirror image of Littlefinger. Gregor destroyed innocent/idealistic Sandor and Brandon/Catelyn destroyed innocent/idealistic Petyr. Both men desire Sansa sexually, of course, but what makes her special and really resonates with them is the innocence and idealism thing she embodies and represents.

But in Sandor's case we can hope he is over all that now. He has found some sort of peace on the Quiet Isle and one hopes for him that he is going to have a different and new agenda once he returns to the world. My personal guess is that he is going to become an anointed knight, after all, joining the ranks of the Warrior's Sons. The Seven saved and forgave him the guise of the Elder Brother, after all, and one assumes that's going to set him on a completely different path.

I'm not sure how Sansa could figure into that just as I don't see how Sandor could figure into her life.

Perhaps if they all end up meeting again at Aegon's court something could develop? It could be interesting to see how they would interact when they met each other again after so much time passed.

This could also be interesting with Arya-Gendry, of course. But unlike those shippers I'm pretty sure that would be a very sobering experience on both sides. Gendry most certainly is having affairs and romances with the many girls and young women that are part of the brotherhood. And Arya will be a trained and experienced assassin with powerful magical abilities. From her perspective her old world, Winterfell included, must look very small and insignificant. It may remain her home, of course, but she will have outgrown it.