Where is the love?

[Meera of Tarth]

6 minutes ago, Nasty LongRider said:

Which is what truly made the line special, the simple truth.   And yes, it's a great big hint of what is going on with Jamie and his feelings.  

Indeed. It's one of my favoruite lines. It's amazing how a reationship between two characters can advance just in a few chapters, but also without it feeling forced.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

That's you own assumption, and not based on what we have read about his personality from Arya's or Brienne's POV, but the contrary, in fact.

He actually apologised after leaving her because he cares about her  and he was likely shouting her name when she left. Now he is at the Inn where he thinks she could return to and if you noticed his mood in Brienne's chapters, he is not very into "sleeping with girls". 

Arya directly remembers him twice, once when she is thinking of what she would like to be doing and the other when she is so afraid, and he is the first that comes into her mind in that moment. That's actually deeper than that.

She still thinks he and Hot Pie abandoned her. She thought they were her pack but they weren't. And she is right there. Gendry gives more about an outlaw knighthood and a career with some undead lord than about Arya. She isn't exactly the center of his universe. He has other priorities and, like a good manly man, he is not going to accept alms from some highborn girl.

And, sure, he didn't want Arya to see that he likes other girls. But now that she is gone he sure as hell will do whatever the hell he wants. And there are a lot of tavern wenches and other girls around his circles now. Not to mention proper whores.

What do you think Gendry could offer when she finally returns to Westeros? She doesn't need him to defend her. She is smarter than he is. She is more determined and more capable than he is in the fighting department.

[Sea Dragon]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, yeah. You really want to ship them very hard, right? No youth looking like Gendry is likely going to remain without a female companion during the things he does. They are butchering Lannisters and Freys and collaborators. What do you think he does to cool down? Read a book?

Also keep in mind that Gendry abandoned Arya. He left her. She is not going to forget or forgive that. It taught her a valuable lesson. And as far as I recall (I'm not obsessed with that) Arya does never reminiscence about Gendry's muscles, etc. She doesn't think all that often about him after she left him, and never with any longing.

And the age gap is important, of course. There is no fucking going on with an eleven-year-old, yes? And hopefully also not with a twelve-year-old, right?

Class differences certainly would be a thing. But the much bigger problem would be Arya's profession, her overall attitude, and her world view. Still, they could have an affair. But they would not stay together more than the usual fortnight. They have nothing in common.

Well, Gendry did not really abandon Arya as much as Arya also walked away from him and neither one on permanent bad terms. Gendry could have slept with the girl at the Peach, Bella, but he didn't. If he did not care about Arya that way then he would have done that right there that night.

Arya is not a real favorite of mine, but this was when I was not so bored with her chapters. I thought the tickle fight and the pretty dress was fairly obvious. That was how I played with the boys I liked when I was younger and I liked those boys in that way.

And I don't think the age gap is all that important right now. Isn't Arya supposed to be in the epilogue or something?

[Crona]

I think GRRM portrays love in a pretty good way. Jon and Ygritte, Sam and Gilly, Ned and Catelyn. Also, he portrays fascination pretty well like Sansa and Joffrey, Jon and Val. Love is very difficult and it has many facets with it. To be with someone you have to accept them for who they are, and you have to be to be fine with living with this person for the rest of your life. A lot of fiction doesn't reflect it, but keeping someone as a partner is so hard and preparing for your expectations to be lowered.

[Meera of Tarth]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She still thinks he and Hot Pie abandoned her. She thought they were her pack but they weren't. And she is right there. Gendry gives more about an outlaw knighthood and a career with some undead lord than about Arya. She isn't exactly the center of his universe. He has other priorities and, like a good manly man, he is not going to accept alms from some highborn girl.

You understand that love is not about someone being the centre of your universee?

Lots of things happen between them before he decides to join them. He is also frustrated because she is a highborn. There were amazing exchanges between posters in this thread about the posible deeper meaning of Arya and Gendry's dynamics and this in particular (before the thread turned into an offtopic thread)-

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And, sure, he didn't want Arya to see that he likes other girls. But now that she is gone he sure as hell will do whatever the hell he wants. And there are a lot of tavern wenches and other girls around his circles now. Not to mention proper whores.

And again, you can't claim that if you have read Gendry through Arya's and Brienne's POV, but the contrary. Your subjective assumptions.

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What do you think Gendry could offer when she finally returns to Westeros? She doesn't need him to defend her. She is smarter than he is. She is more determined and more capable than he is in the fighting department.

It's not about what he could offer, we are talking about love, which is deeper than that. But even if thre was no romantic love, as a friend, strong, knighted and with a sword of his own, he could offer her friendship, protection, help and companionship.

[Lord Varys]

31 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

Well, Gendry did not really abandon Arya as much as Arya also walked away from him and neither one on permanent bad terms. Gendry could have slept with the girl at the Peach, Bella, but he didn't. If he did not care about Arya that way then he would have done that right there that night.

I'm aware of that, but it is not clear whether he didn't do it because he was into Arya or because he didn't want her to see him doing that kind of thing. I'd also not hang out of with a prostitute in front of my own little sister or even a younger girl I liked in a non-romantic way.

18 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

You understand that love is not about someone being the centre of your universee?

I was using hyperbole here to illustrate that you apparently think Gendry would not follow his sexual urges or be open to fall in love with a beautiful girl closer to his own age just because he may meet Arya again.

18 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Lots of things happen between them before he decides to join them. He is also frustrated because she is a highborn. There were amazing exchanges between posters in this thread about the posible deeper meaning of Arya and Gendry's dynamics and this in particular (before the thread turned into an offtopic thread).

Newsflash - this isn't an Arya-Gendry thread.

But if you want to discuss this - go on, and paint a picture how you imagine such a romance/whatever going on. When and how are Arya and Gendry going to meet each other again, what kind of relationship are they going to have, and how does this figure in the overall story?

18 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

And again, you can't claim that if you have read Gendry through Arya's and Brienne's POV, but the contrary. Your subjective assumptions.

Even if he hadn't had any affairs - there is no reason to assume that he would care about Arya in a romantic way (or at all) should they ever meet again. He has a new life now. 

18 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

It's not about what he could offer, we are talking about love, which is deeper than that. But even if thre was no romantic love, as a friend, strong, knighted and with a sword of his own, he could offer her friendship, protection, help and companionship.

But as I've just said - Arya's entire arc is about her not needing men for this kind of thing. She can defend herself. Gendry didn't really understand her back then, he certainly has no chance to understand her later on in her story.

[Meera of Tarth]

 

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Newsflash - this isn't an Arya-Gendry thread.

But if you want to discuss this - go on, and paint a picture how you imagine such a romance/whatever going on. When and how are Arya and Gendry going to meet each other again, what kind of relationship are they going to have, and how does this figure in the overall story?

I was pointing out that answers to your porevious questions had been analysed in depth in revious pages on-topic. Discussing Gendry/Arya is not off-topic.

I don't really know how could this happen. I think he clearly hasn't forgotten her and when he meets her she won't let her leave again. Overall story? It could be anything from part of the story of the characters (without affecting the overall one) to Arya and him being someway married as Lords, which I think it's very unlikely but not imposible. I don't think that romance has to affect the story in general, but the characters' journeys in particular.

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Even if he hadn't had any affairs - there is no reason to assume that he would care about Arya in a romantic way (or at all) should they ever meet again. He has a new life now. 

But as I've just said - Arya's entire arc is about her not needing men for this kind of thing. She can defend herself. Gendry didn't really understand her back then, he certainly has no chance to understand her later on in her story.

A new life he clearly doesn't like.

No, her arc is about her identity. Not needing men for being herself or being protected as a damsel in distress is part of her personality, and this has nothing to do with fiendship, companionship, love or even protection in general.

[Meera of Tarth]

52 minutes ago, Sea Dragon said:

Well, Gendry did not really abandon Arya as much as Arya also walked away from him and neither one on permanent bad terms. Gendry could have slept with the girl at the Peach, Bella, but he didn't. If he did not care about Arya that way then he would have done that right there that night.

Arya is not a real favorite of mine, but this was when I was not so bored with her chapters. I thought the tickle fight and the pretty dress was fairly obvious. That was how I played with the boys I liked when I was younger and I liked those boys in that way.

And I don't think the age gap is all that important right now. Isn't Arya supposed to be in the epilogue or something?

Exactly, it's so ovbious.

And we have seen bigger age differences in the story. 4/5 is not as important to point out.

[sweetsunray]

12 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

As you suggest, Gendry has likely bedded his fair share of women on the road, so I can’t imagine him to be spending his nights pining over a little girl that he knew briefly and was never depicted as being aesthetically pleasing.

Which women did he bed, while watching orphans the past 6 months? None, really.

He is actually portrayed to be rather mentally younger than Jon in that regard.

And you also seem to miss out on how much he surrounded himself with Arya's ghosts:

1. first there's Willow Heddle (a tree girl, as much as Arya is the tree girl in the song AND climbing trees all the time), who bosses Gendry around much like Arya, and in case we missed her being a stand-in (to us the readers), Brienne wonders whether she might be Arya. Willow is younger than Arya, so no bedding there.
2. The Orphan's Inn is actually the Crossroads Inn, the same inn, where Arya and Sandor killed the Tickler and the two other Mountain guys. Brienne notices the blood stains in the floor that cannot be washed off anymore of that fight while she sits by the fire of the Orphan's Inn. The Heddle sisters and BwB kicked the interim owner with his girls out. Those people were witnesses to Sandor and his "boy" being there and killing the soldiers. The BwB and Gendry know it was Sandor and Arya after the Twins. Why do you think LS wanted the Crossroads Inn to be an Orphan's Inn? It's one of the likeliest places where Arya may show up again. Why do you think Gendry is positioned there? So, that if she's brought back he can recognize her.

GRRM himself said that he wrote Gendry in such a way that he's not fully mature yet, even though he's 16 or near 16. This is symbolically alluded to by the fact that his "sword" isn't yet "finished".

So, you're wrong: he hasn't bedded anyone yet, and Arya is ever present on his mind.

 

[TMIFairy]

21 hours ago, desire said:

I feel the weight of the world on my shoulder
As I'm getting older, y'all people gets colder
Most of us only care about money-makin'
Selfishness got us followin' the wrong direction
Wrong information always shown by the media
Negative images is the main criteria
Infecting the young minds faster than bacteria
Kids wanna act like what they see in the cinema
Whatever happened to the values of humanity?
Whatever happened to the fairness and equality?
Instead of spreadin' love we spreadin' animosity
Lack of understandin' leading us away from unity
That's the reason why sometimes I'm feelin' under
That's the reason why sometimes I'm feelin' down
It's no wonder why sometimes I'm feelin' under
Gotta keep my faith alive 'til love is found
Now ask yourself…

With all due respect - WTF?

[TMIFairy]

4 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

He refused to sleep before with girls....so maybe because he is still in love with Arya and they will meet again before the ending.

If this is about Gendry - might he be doing the same thing as Jon S.?

"I will not father a bastard?"

[Jordan La Cabra]

5 hours ago, Sea Dragon said:

Well, Gendry did not really abandon Arya as much as Arya also walked away from him and neither one on permanent bad terms. Gendry could have slept with the girl at the Peach, Bella, but he didn't. If he did not care about Arya that way then he would have done that right there that night.

Arya is not a real favorite of mine, but this was when I was not so bored with her chapters. I thought the tickle fight and the pretty dress was fairly obvious. That was how I played with the boys I liked when I was younger and I liked those boys in that way.

Maybe Gendry just didn't sleep with the girl because he could well be a virgin and somehow wanted to savour the moment - or that he was just nervous about doing it. There is something innocent and dumb about Gendry; Arya points it out by calling him stupid. For me, I find it hard to depict him as a silver tongued womaniser, which makes me think he isn't all that good with women.

Gendry knew all along that Arya was a girl when she was pretending to be a boy, so maybe - at best - Gendry didn't go out with the Bella girl because he has an inkling that Arya has feelings for him. And while he has always been respectful to her, he didn't want to upset her by hooking up with someone else in front of her?

We can often let ourselves fall into the trap when reading something that when a character has a 'first crush' that the two characters are going to end up together. Arya / Gendry is definitely a case of that. I think, if anything, that's all Gendry could turn out to be to Arya - the first boy she ever noticed and perhaps liked.

Remember, when Arya was with Gendry she was a lot more 'innocent' than she is now. Given what she has and is going through, if they ever meet again she is going to be a very different person to she was the last time they met. Gendry may not change much at all, as he seems a simpler person. But Arya has gone through massive changes.

Their ages are a problem too. If they meet by the time the story ends, she is still going to be a child and Gendry is going to be even more of a man. If he is anything like his father, a very tall and broad man too.

Maybe years down the line, when all the dust settles. But I don't believe we are likely to see any romance blossoming between these two characters in the remaining pages of the ASoIaF series. 

[Jaime4Brienne]

On 7/29/2017 at 6:50 PM, Lord Varys said:

Sure, and you usually have nothing in common with such people if there is nothing else connecting you. Like, common interests, hobbies, things you like to do together, etc. Arya-Gendry have nothing of that sort. And they are lacking both sexual and romantic attraction in any real sense. Arya simply was too young in ACoK/ASoS. They both moved on. If they meet again they would have to reconnect/begin again from scratch. But Gendry is not the kind of man who want to hook up with a woman like a, say, 14-year-old Arya.

In fact, there are very few men in this series who want to hook up with Arya after they learn who and what she has become. Her family might no reject her (Bran and Sansa also lived through a lot of cruel things, and Catelyn might even approve of her murders) but the idea that they would enjoy her company or feel romantically attracted to her (Jon) doesn't sound very convincing to me.

In addition, there are not exactly many hints that Arya gives a shit about romance, love, and sex - at least not at this point of her life. And while there is no doubt that she will master the art of faking love, affection, and pleasure - just as she already mastered the ability to fake sexual attraction and the art to seduce much older men - I very much doubt she is ever going to feel anything real in the love department or be particularly to explore that aspect of life. A girl as traumatized as Arya is never going to believe anyone ever again that they love her, protect her, help her, etc. How could she? She was betrayed/abandoned/failed by anyone she ever trusted in life.

Even if she didn't not become a professional assassin for the remainder of her life - and that sounds as the most meaningful profession she could do with her fucked-up life - she would remain emotionally broken and traumatized her entire life.

Any sort of mundane relationship and 'normal life' sounds completely ridiculous in light of the things Arya went through. 

I've said something like this myself about Ayra and was vehemently attacked by the Gendry/Ayra shippers. I completely agree with your post.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

I fear for Roslyn, if (as I anticipate) the Tully partisans and BWB go on the rampage against the Freys.  Edmure would surely wish to protect her, but his supporters might just take matters into their own hands.

No doubt she will be in the crosshairs.  She is, however, the mother of the next heir to House Tully should the worst happen to Edmure.  I don't think even LS would harm Edmure's child.  Roslin's fate is still up in the air though.

 

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Here Brienne is the Moodmaid, she is shy and he wonders how such a Knight could be beautiful. Ostensibly he is talking about the night is unlikely to be beautiful because he's just had his hand chopped off. But he's talking about Brienne.  Then he asks why would the stars want to look down on such as me?  He's thinking this because the stars are too good to be looking down at him because his opinion of himself is so low. He's failed at being the true Knight he dreamt he'd be. So the stars are Brienne, she's the Moonmaid! And he's wondering why she'd want to look at him? Given his soiled Knight status v's her true Knight status and her being Beautiful despite her physically failing as the ideal of Westerosi beauty. 

Good catch on that quote!  For comparison, look at the way Cersei dresses to portray herself as a maiden even though her youth is fading and alcohol is taking its toll on her body.  She looks upon Jaime's stump as if he's been gelded and made useless.  Brienne's Tarth sigil is the sun and moon, so maybe we should be thinking in terms of "solar king" and "moon maiden" symbolism.  Then she ends up taking Jaime's "borrowed" shield with the Lothston sigil from Harrenhal.  As both are reviled as kingslayers, they share the infamous sigil but it's almost like share a "house" now.  Then she has the shield repainted unknowingly to Dunk's sigil, the true knight / non-knight:  the shooting star over the tree.  Brienne is on a path of becoming someone who a song will be written about.  A lady knight who gains a reputation for being a slayer of dangerous outlaws and defending orphans.  She may never be a kingsguard like she dreamed of being, but I think she'll be hailed as a true knight among common people.  She'll get the recognition for her skill and bravery she wants most of all there.  Her real super power is how she affects other people.  Jaime, Podrick, Hyle Hunt, (Elder Brother ) and I think Gendry as well.  I don't know if Jaime / Brienne have a future together, but no doubt she's radically changed his life for the better.  If Jaime survives, I could also see him maybe possibly joining the Watch and finding his honor with a black cloak that the white couldn't give him.  That would also fully reject the idea that he and Cersei are one person and they are fated to die together as he once believed.  Anything that proves Cersei wrong I'm okay with  

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I really think that just as Swans are a theme in her arc, she'll be the "ugly" Cygnet who fledges into a stunning swan and we will get that classic Tom Boy got hot trope playing out when they meet back up, and that the attraction is of course well backed up by them having a bonding experience of struggling in the RL's relying upon one another and that they actually liked one another as people prior to anything else.  Lets say she's 12/13 when they meet again, she's almost 12 maybe actually 12 now after all. So she would most likely be 13 coming up 14. that makes him 16 maybe 17. Well, that's not so weird. My boyfriend at 14 was 17 but as I've said I couldn't give a shit about the age gaps.

I agree.  I think that people like Gendry and Hot Pie are her chosen family that exist along side her Stark family.  There was love in her biological family, but not always the most acceptance.  Arya actually believed her mother might not want her back at the Twins, but in reality Cat was willing to take drastic measures to get both her girls back.  Even so, Robb had already taken steps to betroth Arya to a Frey for a political alliance that he needed, something Arya would have flat out resisted if she knew about it, no matter how much she loves her family.  Even her father that at times seemed indulgent of her interests expected her to grow up and act proper once she was came of age.   People like Arya also need a chosen family to fulfill the needs their biological family can't.  Gendry and Hot Pie make her feel normal and accepted.  I don't think Arya is actually consciously aware of how beneficial a chosen family can be to people like her.  She's very quick to call anything she doesn't like or understand "stupid."  Separation in the story can give a character a different perspective on things they had before.  

Just because they reunite it also doesn't mean the relationship will be consummated by sex on page, so I think we need to relax and not jump to that conclusion.  They may take a good long time of developing a new intimacy in sharing their experiences while they were apart.  The most they might do on page is kiss and a sexual relationship might be hinted at in the future off page.  But if sex does happen, so be it.  I've long since stopped trying to make any real world sense of age appropriateness in the story and I try to focus on the character's psychological development rather than chronological age.  Remember, our beloved Ned thinks it's good parenting to take your seven year old to a beheading and praise him if he can watch it without flinching.  Boys are trained for lethal violence before they reach the double digits.  As fantasy fans we think that is super cool, but let's be honest.  They are being trained to kill and be okay with killing.  We know kids as young as 12 can be expected to fight in a real war.  By real world standards this morally reprehensible and abuse, but on Planetos it's the proper way to raise a boy.  Right from the jump we should realize this world has a very different ideas about what is appropriate and normal for young people.  As long as it's enthusiastically consensual, both people are happier for it, and it adds to the narrative, I can suspend my real world objections.

Thanks for the compliment!  I will PM you about your question.  

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

For Robb and Jeyne this thing was real, too. It is a nice adolescent romance and certainly the one that could have been the happiest under slightly different circumstances. However, we don't know how much of it goes back to Robb's emotional vulnerability due to the fact that it started when he learned about Bran/Rickon.

Is anybody out there who lost his father and two brothers and then just threw himself into a sexual relationship to fight against his or her grief? That could have played a huge part on Robb's part. Still, Jeyne is a pretty, nice, and honest girl. And they were into each other very much.

You raise a good point about Robb's vulnerability and grief maybe playing a role in his decision to have sex with Jeyne.  It's all rolled into the normal teenage stuff too, but he's also under enormous pressure running a war and that comes with thinking about his own mortality.  I think he probably was looking for comfort perhaps more than just being young and horny.  There's plenty of camp followers to relieve needs without worry about dishonoring anyone.  Jeyne seems like a really sweet girl and I could see why Robb was drawn to her then.  I don't think if he had met Jeyne under other circumstances he would have been overcome with passion or entered into a hasty relationship.  Robb doesn't strike me as being that impulsive under normal circumstances.  People do have sex to feel better in times of grief and stress.  It's life affirming in the face of death and tragedy.  

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Can anyone who invests so much time and effort looking for clues that might foreshadow some sort of relationship between this or that character explain to me why he or she thinks this should actually happen? Most of the actual romances in the books (Robb-Jeyne, Dany-Daario, Jon-Ygritte, Tyrion-Tysha, Tyrion-Shae, etc.) come out of nowhere and not foreshadowed by anything in the books. Why then should Arya-Gendry or Sandor-Sansa spending time together and perhaps feeling some sort of attraction to each other result in them ever having a relationship?

All the pairings already ended in the past or had glaring reasons why they were not going to last right from the jump.  They have plot advancing purpose and are learning experiences for the POVs certainly.  I can see why those pairings logically exist without foreshadowing being necessary.  It gives us something new, but not truly coming out of nowhere, which would a cheap plot device if it were.  In the case of Robb/Jeyne, they were a surprise but the RW set up was not.  By contrast, I do consider things that George takes painstaking effort to lay groundwork for and to foreshadow are probably the things that will give the biggest payoff somehow, someway in the future.  The writer is the omnipotent God of this world.  Not a blade of grass exists without him wanting it to.  So X character being attracted to Y character doesn't happen unless George has a purpose for it existing.  Sometimes it's a small reason, sometimes it's a big reason.  Realism comes from something being relatable and "feeling real" rather than being a perfect replication of all the random, meaningless junk that happens in real life.  I think it was way more time and effort for George to set up these things than for many readers to recognize them.  As a writer, you just don't devote that ridiculous amount of page space to something you intend to amount to nothing or very little.  That's the definition of a boring waste of time.  Writing it and reading it.  

The literary tool of foreshadowing actually makes a great deal of sense when your characters are young.  Mentally Arya and Sansa are not ready for an adult relationship.  If George wants it to ultimately come to a positive romantic story, he can't have it starting literally on page when they aren't ready.  That would be clueless and unconscionable to expect the reader to accept it as a positive romance; however, he can let us know his future intentions and play with the idea "safely" by using subtext, symbolism, and foreshadowing.  Things the characters are not aware of, but readers are.  The relationship then avoids being tainted in the present while setting us up for the future, when the timing is right and the characters are ready.  Unlike many of the pairings you listed, I don't think we get a sense of finality with Sansa/Sandor and Arya Gendry.  There's more of a sense of things left hanging and unfinished business by the abrupt way they each separated.  The separation is actually a good thing, because it allows for some necessary character growth on everyone's part.  Our personal approval or disapproval of a pairing is ultimately irrelevant to the story George wants to tell. There are things I think are boring too, but that only indicates my personal tastes or interests.  It's no way to measure the importance of something George has in mind.  He knows why he's doing what he's doing, even if sometimes we don't.  

As for why I think those pairings would be relevant to the story...  I think George has shown us how deeply flawed this patriarchal traditional system is.  Both these girls have been sought after for that purpose.  Arya was promised to a Frey because Robb needed it, even though he married for love.  A fake Arya is being used to legitimize the Boltons claim on Winterfell.  Sansa was wed to Tyrion for the purpose of placing a Lannister in Winterfell and obliterating House Stark for good.  There were also the Tyrells, Lysa wanting her to SR, we found out LF asked Cersei to let him wed her, and now Harrold Hardyng.  FFS, these girls just continue to be up for grabs to be used to bolster the power of other male characters.  I find it hard to believe considering that they are important POVs that all George can imagine is yet another arranged marriage as a major plot point and contribution.  It's a very heavily beaten dead horse and has never meant anything good so far.  I do think George has something completely different in mind for them, something that utilizes their established story and individual talents.  Why would it be a useless thing to have partnerships that validate their individuality and the major themes in the arcs that George gave them?

These guys don't care about any of their claims or titles.  They just care about the sisters as human beings.  In fact, their social status is actually a hinderance, not a benefit to them.  They're the ones who risk the most by reaching so far above their station.  Individual fulfillment is not frivolous.  It can mean a lot in preparing a character for the final phase of the story.  Both sisters have expressed a need for acceptance and being loved for themselves.  The pairings are written to be very specifically compatible with each other.  They share core values, which is a big deal in a relationship built for the long-haul.  Justice and compassion toward the common people for Arya/Gendry.  True knighthood and idealism in Sandor/Sansa.  But they also have different life experiences so they can challenge each other too.  It gives the dynamic interest and keeps each other evolving.  There's mutual support and caring.  Nothing literally sexual has even happened, but the interactions can be very authentic and intimate.  That's a solid foundation that a real love can be born out of.  I think there's a lot of potential here for Gendry and Sandor helping to bring Arya and Sansa back to their true identities and core values after their respective separation periods.  The sisters won't be unscathed from what they've been exposed to.  They need a lifeline and from someone who cares about them.    

Sandor does have problematic issues, but they aren't insurmountable ones.  I highly doubt he's fated to a monastic life or to be a holy warrior.  Stranger has refused to be gelded (which is essentially what a celibate life entails) and he resists being turned into a plowhorse, something he is not.  Stranger is a stallion, he's meant to make babies. lol   As a character, Sandor has revealed deep down he had a desire for home and family when he accepted the position on the kingsguard, which was the final deathblow to that hope.  While I think he will find a true brother in Elder Brother, they will relate on the basis that EB was a knight that did some bad stuff himself and was traumatized by violence.  The religious order on the QI doesn't strike me as the same rigid fundamentalism of the Warrior's Sons or the Sparrows in KL.  They seem a lot less judgey and more about peaceful communal living. Considering his deep regrets about leaving Sansa, I think he would seek to atone for how he failed her.  I think he will be saving his anger for those who truly deserve it.  He is capable of being patient and gentle too.  I think we don't have to worry about him being drunk and brutish towards Sansa in the future.  Gendry was working towards his own knighthood too, but the BwB is deteriorating into more dubious territory since Beric died.  Brienne, who has a very strong moral compass, entering his arc may be what he needs right now as someone who can teach him and also tell him about his parentage.  It probably would politically mean nothing, but it would mean a lot personally I think.  It would make sense of why he was made to be Mott's apprentice and why he was shipped off to the Wall.  Anyway, unlike any other possible suitors for the sisters, these guys are actually doing the work of earning their knighthood just on the tiniest hope that proving themselves could give them a sliver of a chance.  Earning it is a huge theme in the story.  Not in the sense that the girls are prizes, I think it's more of how they feel about their own worth and how they want to be recognized.                  

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This could also be interesting with Arya-Gendry, of course. But unlike those shippers I'm pretty sure that would be a very sobering experience on both sides. Gendry most certainly is having affairs and romances with the many girls and young women that are part of the brotherhood.

 Oh the Gendry that "blushes like a maid" when he's being hit on?  Who firmly rejects the offer to have his bell rung twice?  He was clearly uncomfortable with being offered a freebie.  Please point to the text that leads you to be so certain that he's suddenly now following his dick around everywhere, because that characterization is absurd.  I think it's pretty clear Gendry is not his womanizing father.  That's really funny how you think "the shippers" are making mountains out of molehills when you just pulled some unsubstantiated bullshit out of thin air to try to prove your point.  

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Both men desire Sansa sexually, of course, but what makes her special and really resonates with them is the innocence and idealism thing she embodies and represents.

Again you characterization is inaccurate.  LF and Sandor could not be more different.  I have no problem acknowledging Sandor's issues, but they aren't the same as LF's at all.  Sandor was an innocent little kid when Gregor burned him.  That wasn't what killed his idealism.  It was the cover up and system rewarding that mountain of human garbage continuously for years.  He murdered their father.  It's implied something foul happened to the unnamed sister as well.  Blatant kinslaying which he should have been executed for.  Knighted by the crown prince himself, the family lands, the home, 3 marriages (no justice for the murdered wives either), Lannister gold, and the protection of Tywin himself because Gregor is useful.  Sandor had to escape and make his own way with nothing.  Sandor does have personal responsibility for his own adult life, but he suffered a grievous injustice.  LF was never that innocent or idealistic. There's some disturbing personality traits he exhibits early on.  At 8 years old he was sticking his tongue in Catelyn and Lysa's mouth.  She says he was always very bold, which reads to me like he often crossed boundaries and exhibited inappropriate behavior.  He talks about his father with cold detachment, even though it appears he was raised by a father that loved him.  Among other traits we see in his adulthood, he shows signs of being a psychopath.  He may have wanted Catelyn, but she never gave him any serious encouragement that she returned his feelings.  So even if she danced with him six times (big deal, it was a party) she refused to kiss him.  Rejection hurts, but it still needs to be respected.  This was beyond a foolish, innocent crush but had some dangerous entitlement undertones. He projected what he wanted on to it.  He escalated it to the duel without even considering that Catelyn had no such intention of breaking her betrothal anyway.  She still didn't want Petyr hurt though.  Brandon shouldn't have hurt him so badly either, but Petyr largely brought this upon himself by insisting on the duel.  They did not destroy his innocence and idealism.  He was in full on denial that Catelyn never had those feelings and tried to foist his feelings upon her more than once.  I do feel that what Lysa did to him was a rape and I do feel sympathy for that.           

LF does not give a fuck about Sansa.  He wants to use her for completely selfish purposes, he is sexually abusing her, he has lied to her, he has placed her in dangerous situations.  Yes they both see her innocence and naivete.  Sandor sees it and it makes him concerned for her.  He tries to tear the veil from her eyes to help her.  But what also makes him care particularly about her, is the she cared first when she took his side over what Gregor did.  She validated his feelings and told him it was wrong Gregor was rewarded.  She also never told anyone else about his secret.  Sandor doesn't go around rescuing every vulnerable, innocent person in KL.  He only does that for Sansa because she was genuinely kind to him (even when he was being mean), never betrayed him, and never exploited his vulnerability.  LF sees her innocence and preys upon it.  He uses it to manipulate her.  It's textbook 101 for how a sexual predator grooms a victim.       

Sandor has noticed her physically (but honestly everyone in the castle has when he does), but when he realizes that she's still mentally immature, he backtracks the hell out of there.  It makes him uncomfortable.  LF creeps on her even before she developed and has forced kisses on her and touched her breast.  Sandor has never touched her in a sexual way.  Sandor has always tried to tell her the truth as he knows it and has protected her from harm when he could.  He's never used her or manipulated her.  The most terrible thing Sandor did was scare her in a drunken PTSD meltdown, something he felt horrible guilt over.  As horrible and wrong it is to demand anything from a scared girl at knifepoint, what he was demanding was the literal song of FLorian and Jonquil.  Not the metaphoric "song".  He already knows she's too young and not ready.  So even if he desired her (which I think he did), unlike LF, he does not force that desire upon her.  Her consent matters to him.  Nothing actually sexual happens in that scene and he doesn't force her to go with him against her will.  He even thinks he's the worst piece of shit for not doing more for her.  LF has no guilt about anything.  In fact, I think he implies he expects a sexual relationship to escalate after he marries her to HtH when her virginity isn't an issue. So even Sandor's worst incident is nothing compared to the really horrible sexual abuse LF is doing.  They are not the same.                

 

           

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

No doubt she will be in the crosshairs.  She is, however, the mother of the next heir to House Tully should the worst happen to Edmure.  I don't think even LS would harm Edmure's child.  Roslin's fate is still up in the air though.

.              

LS would wait for the child to be born before hanging her.

[John Doe]

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

As for why I think those pairings would be relevant to the story...  I think George has shown us how deeply flawed this patriarchal traditional system is.  Both these girls have been sought after for that purpose.  Arya was promised to a Frey because Robb needed it, even though he married for love.  A fake Arya is being used to legitimize the Boltons claim on Winterfell.  Sansa was wed to Tyrion for the purpose of placing a Lannister in Winterfell and obliterating House Stark for good.  There were also the Tyrells, Lysa wanting her to SR, we found out LF asked Cersei to let him wed her, and now Harrold Hardyng.  FFS, these girls just continue to be up for grabs to be used to bolster the power of other male characters.  I find it hard to believe considering that they are important POVs that all George can imagine is yet another arranged marriage as a major plot point and contribution.  It's a very heavily beaten dead horse and has never meant anything good so far.  I do think George has something completely different in mind for them, something that utilizes their established story and individual talents.  Why would it be a useless thing to have partnerships that validate their individuality and the major themes in the arcs that George gave them?

I agree wholeheartedly with your post, but this part i don't agree with. It's true that Westeros is a patriarchy, but I disagree about arranged marriage being a gender issue. Male characters are used to not being asked who they marry too. Ned stepped up to marry Cat because his brother died. Or think about Harold Hardyng who had his marriage to Sansa, which he didn't want, arranged by a female character. Lysa wants Sansa to wed Sweetrobin too, and she is a woman. Tyrion had the one marriage he did like taken away from him and got a marriage he didn't like  instead. Olenna is scheming to marry Sansa as much as the male characters are. The real problem is that women in their society are much more restricted in other areas, but arranged marriage is not portrayed as a question of gender, imo.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Jaime4Brienne said:

I've said something like this myself about Ayra and was vehemently attacked by the Gendry/Ayra shippers. I completely agree with your post.

Are you on board with my take on that, too, if I say something similar about Jaime-Brienne ;-)?

I don't buy a lot of foreshadowing there, either. Especially not the dream thing. However, I do not discard the idea that they might getting closer in the future. But if there is going to be a romance there it first has to develop.

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

No doubt she will be in the crosshairs.  She is, however, the mother of the next heir to House Tully should the worst happen to Edmure.  I don't think even LS would harm Edmure's child.  Roslin's fate is still up in the air though.

Catelyn herself might take Riverrun. She doesn't necessarily need Edmure. And if she does he can remarry, no? Roslin was in on the Red Wedding. She is as guilty as poor Merrett Frey.

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

You raise a good point about Robb's vulnerability and grief maybe playing a role in his decision to have sex with Jeyne.  It's all rolled into the normal teenage stuff too, but he's also under enormous pressure running a war and that comes with thinking about his own mortality.  I think he probably was looking for comfort perhaps more than just being young and horny.  There's plenty of camp followers to relieve needs without worry about dishonoring anyone.  Jeyne seems like a really sweet girl and I could see why Robb was drawn to her then.  I don't think if he had met Jeyne under other circumstances he would have been overcome with passion or entered into a hasty relationship.  Robb doesn't strike me as being that impulsive under normal circumstances.  People do have sex to feel better in times of grief and stress.  It's life affirming in the face of death and tragedy.  

The whole thing is even discussed in the books. When Robb talks to Cat about their first night he mentions it was the day he had the letter about Bran and Rickon. And, sure, Jeyne isn't some tavern wench and he deflowered her in her father's castle. There is no honorable way out of that but marriage.

But we also see later on how much Robb enjoys being around Jeyne's innocent brothers. Jeyne is a comfort to him on the emotional level but Rollam very much becomes a replacement for Bran and Rickon.

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

All the pairings already ended in the past or had glaring reasons why they were not going to last right from the jump.  They have plot advancing purpose and are learning experiences for the POVs certainly.  I can see why those pairings logically exist without foreshadowing being necessary.  It gives us something new, but not truly coming out of nowhere, which would a cheap plot device if it were.  In the case of Robb/Jeyne, they were a surprise but the RW set up was not.  By contrast, I do consider things that George takes painstaking effort to lay groundwork for and to foreshadow are probably the things that will give the biggest payoff somehow, someway in the future.  The writer is the omnipotent God of this world.  Not a blade of grass exists without him wanting it to.  So X character being attracted to Y character doesn't happen unless George has a purpose for it existing.  Sometimes it's a small reason, sometimes it's a big reason.  Realism comes from something being relatable and "feeling real" rather than being a perfect replication of all the random, meaningless junk that happens in real life.  I think it was way more time and effort for George to set up these things than for many readers to recognize them.  As a writer, you just don't devote that ridiculous amount of page space to something you intend to amount to nothing or very little.  That's the definition of a boring waste of time.  Writing it and reading it.  

George wants to surprise himself with his writing, though. He knows where he wants the story to go but he doesn't know - nor does he want to know - the individual steps it takes to get there. And there are many break-out characters in that story that influenced and changed the overall story. Just think of characters like Brienne, not to mention all those POVs that were added from ACoK onwards.

Or take Arya's own journey. The original plan seems to have been to have get back to Winterfell and then to Wall eventually, where she was supposed to hook up with Jon. When did that change? When did George decide that this Jaqen character was some sort of sorcerer-assassin? When did he make the decision that Arya would go to Braavos to learn that craft, too? That wasn't planned back when he wrote AGoT, that's pretty clear.

In that sense a lot of those flirting or hanging-out with potential love interests might originally have been supposed to be more but then just turn out to be preparation for other romances/situations they find themselves in.

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

The literary tool of foreshadowing actually makes a great deal of sense when your characters are young.  Mentally Arya and Sansa are not ready for an adult relationship.  If George wants it to ultimately come to a positive romantic story, he can't have it starting literally on page when they aren't ready.  That would be clueless and unconscionable to expect the reader to accept it as a positive romance; however, he can let us know his future intentions and play with the idea "safely" by using subtext, symbolism, and foreshadowing.  Things the characters are not aware of, but readers are.  The relationship then avoids being tainted in the present while setting us up for the future, when the timing is right and the characters are ready.  Unlike many of the pairings you listed, I don't think we get a sense of finality with Sansa/Sandor and Arya Gendry.  There's more of a sense of things left hanging and unfinished business by the abrupt way they each separated.  The separation is actually a good thing, because it allows for some necessary character growth on everyone's part.  Our personal approval or disapproval of a pairing is ultimately irrelevant to the story George wants to tell. There are things I think are boring too, but that only indicates my personal tastes or interests.  It's no way to measure the importance of something George has in mind.  He knows why he's doing what he's doing, even if sometimes we don't.

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by that? Do you think a 20-30-year-old Arya/Sansa might end up calling Gendry/Sandor asking him for a date?

If those things have relevance and meaning not just on the level of shaping the coming-of-age aspect of their stories then they are not that relevant for the plot.

Perhaps it is a problem of mine, but I want to read about romances that make sense for the characters involved in the story as well as in context of the plot of the story. That is a hallmark of good literature.

And I find it increasingly difficult to see the how Arya-Gendry or Sandor-Sansa could fit into this story in any way if we consider the overall plot. They are not exactly the character with the most chapters right now, and there are so many other things that are more relevant in relation to their characters and their stories than romances involving these people.

Revisiting those things would mean be a regress for all characters involved.

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

As for why I think those pairings would be relevant to the story...  I think George has shown us how deeply flawed this patriarchal traditional system is.  Both these girls have been sought after for that purpose.  Arya was promised to a Frey because Robb needed it, even though he married for love.  A fake Arya is being used to legitimize the Boltons claim on Winterfell.  Sansa was wed to Tyrion for the purpose of placing a Lannister in Winterfell and obliterating House Stark for good.  There were also the Tyrells, Lysa wanting her to SR, we found out LF asked Cersei to let him wed her, and now Harrold Hardyng.  FFS, these girls just continue to be up for grabs to be used to bolster the power of other male characters.  I find it hard to believe considering that they are important POVs that all George can imagine is yet another arranged marriage as a major plot point and contribution.  It's a very heavily beaten dead horse and has never meant anything good so far.  I do think George has something completely different in mind for them, something that utilizes their established story and individual talents.  Why would it be a useless thing to have partnerships that validate their individuality and the major themes in the arcs that George gave them?

If Sansa is going to have a meaningful and relevant part to play in that story she will learn how to use men to her own ends. She will exert power the only way a woman can in this society. It will involve seduction, or at least the promise of seduction, but it does not really have to involve a marriage. Although that's certainly not that unlikely, either.

Arya doesn't fit into this society at all. She doesn't want to settle down and marry, and makes that clear as early as AGoT. She doesn't need men, nor is she the kind of person who needs all that much companionship or friendship. She can get along very well all by herself. And I'm pretty sure this independence is going to be enormously important for her. A guy like Gendry would only slow her down. She already realizes that both of them - Gendry less so than Hot Pie - are useless during their escape from Harrenhal. And while Gendry may have had some character growth along the way he simply cannot keep up with Arya. Pretty much nobody can in this story.

And I'm sorry - she is the psychopathic serial killer in this story. She still needs reasons to kill, of course, sometimes rather good reasons. And I'm sure she is not likely going to get down feel the urge to kill to such a degree that she has to cut a man's throat each month or so (like some of the really fucked-up serial killers had) but I'm also not sure she is ever going to want to abandon that lifestyle.

If Arya ended up settling down at Winterfell with anyone it would be the worst thing she possibly could do. Everything in her character and story indicates that she wants to be more than that. Much, much more.

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

These guys don't care about any of their claims or titles.  They just care about the sisters as human beings.  In fact, their social status is actually a hinderance, not a benefit to them.  They're the ones who risk the most by reaching so far above their station.  Individual fulfillment is not frivolous.  It can mean a lot in preparing a character for the final phase of the story.  Both sisters have expressed a need for acceptance and being loved for themselves.  The pairings are written to be very specifically compatible with each other.  They share core values, which is a big deal in a relationship built for the long-haul.  Justice and compassion toward the common people for Arya/Gendry.  True knighthood and idealism in Sandor/Sansa.  But they also have different life experiences so they can challenge each other too.  It gives the dynamic interest and keeps each other evolving.  There's mutual support and caring.  Nothing literally sexual has even happened, but the interactions can be very authentic and intimate.  That's a solid foundation that a real love can be born out of.  I think there's a lot of potential here for Gendry and Sandor helping to bring Arya and Sansa back to their true identities and core values after their respective separation periods.  The sisters won't be unscathed from what they've been exposed to.  They need a lifeline and from someone who cares about them.

I really think you are reading too much into all that. Especially into Sandor. The man has his own issues. He desires Sansa because she is beautiful like pretty much every man does, but what gets to him is what she represents, not what she is as a person. That she understands him and that he can relate to her makes things worse, not better or easier. It makes him want to hurt her because she sees through him. That is why he has to force her to keep quiet about his true story. It is also the reason why he cannot take her with him. He cannot drag her down to where he is nor can he destroy what is really so beautiful and innocent. He is not Gregor, after all.

Sansa thinks there is something good in this man because he doesn't mistreat her like all the knights in Joffrey's service do. But him being good Sansa for now doesn't mean she is correct in her assessment of him. We never get his POV, after all. For all we know he was very tempted to destroy Sansa - to rape her, beat her, hurt her, to show her what the world and men truly are like. Sandor suffered at the hands of the people in his life, the people who should have protected him and cared for him, and now he makes others suffer in turn. Sandor very much relishes in this idea that the world sucks and there are no gods, etc. He even mimics that kind of thing by being cruel to others. That's why he kills people. And that's why he tries to be the best killer there is, the man who isn't afraid of anything. Until he cannot face the fire.

The man on the Quiet Isle may have changed. If so, then this change would have been accomplished by the divine miracle of his healing. Sandor may have found his faith, after all. Just like Lancel did.

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Sandor does have problematic issues, but they aren't insurmountable ones.  I highly doubt he's fated to a monastic life or to be a holy warrior.  Stranger has refused to be gelded (which is essentially what a celibate life entails) and he resists being turned into a plowhorse, something he is not.  Stranger is a stallion, he's meant to make babies. lol   As a character, Sandor has revealed deep down he had a desire for home and family when he accepted the position on the kingsguard, which was the final deathblow to that hope.  While I think he will find a true brother in Elder Brother, they will relate on the basis that EB was a knight that did some bad stuff himself and was traumatized by violence.  The religious order on the QI doesn't strike me as the same rigid fundamentalism of the Warrior's Sons or the Sparrows in KL.  They seem a lot less judgey and more about peaceful communal living. Considering his deep regrets about leaving Sansa, I think he would seek to atone for how he failed her.  I think he will be saving his anger for those who truly deserve it.  He is capable of being patient and gentle too.  I think we don't have to worry about him being drunk and brutish towards Sansa in the future.

Sandor's own story isn't about Sansa, though. He left her and moved on. And he went through deep trauma of his own, being essentially sentenced to die the ugly and painful death of an animal in the middle of nowhere. Try to ask yourself what you may have felt in Sandor's shoes in the minutes and hours and days after Arya left you to rot. He would have begged the world and the gods for some sort of miracle, would have cried out to them to end his pain, would have confessed his sins either in word or thought (if he was too weak).

And then a miracle happened. A man of the Seven healed him. If that isn't going to set him on a new path I don't know what will.

But if you want to fantasize you can imagine that Sansa and Sandor will meet again in KL. He as a Warrior's Son and she as the wife of Harrold Hardyng - or a potential bride for Aegon - attended King Aegon VI's coronation in the Great Sept of Baelor. They can hook up all day long if they want to if it fits into the story. I actually like to read about weird and twisted love stories - and that's what Sandor-Sansa would be if George really gave us that. But the idea that Sandor is going to go on some quest to find Sansa makes little sense of his own position in life right now. He must have other priorities. Even if he magically found out where Sansa was he would have every reason to think she was well-protected and cared for in the Vale.

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Gendry was working towards his own knighthood too, but the BwB is deteriorating into more dubious territory since Beric died.  Brienne, who has a very strong moral compass, entering his arc may be what he needs right now as someone who can teach him and also tell him about his parentage.  It probably would politically mean nothing, but it would mean a lot personally I think.  It would make sense of why he was made to be Mott's apprentice and why he was shipped off to the Wall.  Anyway, unlike any other possible suitors for the sisters, these guys are actually doing the work of earning their knighthood just on the tiniest hope that proving themselves could give them a sliver of a chance.  Earning it is a huge theme in the story.  Not in the sense that the girls are prizes, I think it's more of how they feel about their own worth and how they want to be recognized.

Gendry is gone again. He isn't with Cat/Brienne/Jaime right now. And I daresay these characters have more important things to do than to help Gendry along with his 'arc'. The boy is at best a side character in this story.

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Oh the Gendry that "blushes like a maid" when he's being hit on?  Who firmly rejects the offer to have his bell rung twice?  He was clearly uncomfortable with being offered a freebie.  Please point to the text that leads you to be so certain that he's suddenly now following his dick around everywhere, because that characterization is absurd.  I think it's pretty clear Gendry is not his womanizing father.  That's really funny how you think "the shippers" are making mountains out of molehills when you just pulled some unsubstantiated bullshit out of thin air to try to prove your point.  

Oh, come on. I like to have sex, too. But I still wouldn't visit a brothel, just as I wouldn't have done so back in my adolescence. It is fake love and fake emotional closeness, after all. There is no wonder that Gendry doesn't like this kind of thing, especially not at his age. However, this doesn't mean he is unlikely to get close to another girl/woman now that Arya is gone. A woman/girl who genuinely loves him.

Sure, we don't see that - but we don't have to. Gendry isn't exactly a main character. The idea that he would for some reason only jerk off to think about Arya, saving himself for her, etc. is not very likely. I don't expect him to forget her immediately but if he were to find some nice girl he would hook up with her, especially if that was the only comfort he could hope for in this rather miserable life he has now.

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Again you characterization is inaccurate.  LF and Sandor could not be more different.  I have no problem acknowledging Sandor's issues, but they aren't the same as LF's at all.  Sandor was an innocent little kid when Gregor burned him.  That wasn't what killed his idealism.  It was the cover up and system rewarding that mountain of human garbage continuously for years.  He murdered their father.  It's implied something foul happened to the unnamed sister as well.  Blatant kinslaying which he should have been executed for.  Knighted by the crown prince himself, the family lands, the home, 3 marriages (no justice for the murdered wives either), Lannister gold, and the protection of Tywin himself because Gregor is useful.  Sandor had to escape and make his own way with nothing.  Sandor does have personal responsibility for his own adult life, but he suffered a grievous injustice.  LF was never that innocent or idealistic. There's some disturbing personality traits he exhibits early on.  At 8 years old he was sticking his tongue in Catelyn and Lysa's mouth.  She says he was always very bold, which reads to me like he often crossed boundaries and exhibited inappropriate behavior.  He talks about his father with cold detachment, even though it appears he was raised by a father that loved him.  Among other traits we see in his adulthood, he shows signs of being a psychopath.  He may have wanted Catelyn, but she never gave him any serious encouragement that she returned his feelings.  So even if she danced with him six times (big deal, it was a party) she refused to kiss him.  Rejection hurts, but it still needs to be respected.  This was beyond a foolish, innocent crush but had some dangerous entitlement undertones. He projected what he wanted on to it.  He escalated it to the duel without even considering that Catelyn had no such intention of breaking her betrothal anyway.  She still didn't want Petyr hurt though.  Brandon shouldn't have hurt him so badly either, but Petyr largely brought this upon himself by insisting on the duel.  They did not destroy his innocence and idealism.  He was in full on denial that Catelyn never had those feelings and tried to foist his feelings upon her more than once.  I do feel that what Lysa did to him was a rape and I do feel sympathy for that.

Here you display a huge double standard. You judge Littlefinger harshly despite the fact that he is as much a product of his surroundings as everybody else. He and Sandor and two sides of the same coin. Littlefinger is the smart one and Sandor the strong guy, but they are the same. The idea that kissing some girls who want to play kissing with you at the age of eight is no sign of him being evil. This is not 'inappropriate behavior' in the world they are living in.

Littlefinger is a victim of class differences in this world. He is a bright and innocent young fellow who was given the enormous privilege of being raised as a ward of Lord Hoster Tully of Riverrun. It is basically the same as if you or I were raised in the household of billionaire and overtly treated as a member of the family. That chances your perspectives, changes your view on life, opens it up to new possibilities. You think life is good and everything will turn out to be fine.

But for Hoster Tully this boy is still nothing but a beggar. A child he took in and which should be grateful for that honor but sure as hell stay away from his daughters.

Littlefinger has every reason to believe both Cat and Lysa loved him. Have you forgotten that he believes to this day that Cat loved him to because he mistook Lysa for Catelyn? That is why he challenges Brandon. He thinks Catelyn loves him and expects this of him. He thinks 'Family, Duty, Honor' compel her to marry Brandon but that she would take him if she were able to follow her heart.

Now, Littlefinger never would have been a modest guy, he would always have been eager to prove his worth an excel at the things he could do. But he would have never done down the path he did had Hoster granted him Catelyn's hand, that's as clear as crystal. That's why this back story of his is in there.

That he doesn't like his fool of a father (he was, after all, a guy paying some charlatan for prophecies he could have made himself) or his own humble upbringing is not surprising. He was raised at Riverrun with the Tullys, was friends with Edmure (who mentions him in his talk with Jaime in AFfC) - who on earth would enjoy spending time in this dreadful tower?

Littlefinger has traits of a psychopath, just as Arya and Jaime do, but he is still capable of loving people, and he loved Catelyn very much, just as he really loves Sansa now. George lays out how he sees Sansa in this clip he took for the show a while back. It is three-fold - he sees her as a love interest, a younger, more beautiful version of Catelyn, the daughter he may have had with Catelyn had they married as they were supposed to (remember, he thinks Cat loved him as much as he loved her), and then he also sees her as pawn in the political game as he sees everybody else, too. It is a very complex emotional situation, and it is very interesting to see which side is going to win out.

In relation to the fact that Littlefinger is clearly a version of Arkin Ruark from George's Dying of the Light I've an idea what side might win out in the books. And we should always keep in mind that Cat is still/again out there. It is not unlikely at all that she and Littlefinger are going to meet again. Somebody has to tell him that he never slept with Catelyn, that she never loved him. And only Catelyn can tell him that. Lysa is dead, after all.

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

LF does not give a fuck about Sansa.  He wants to use her for completely selfish purposes, he is sexually abusing her, he has lied to her, he has placed her in dangerous situations.

He has not yet sexually abused her. They are playing this father-daughter game right now, and that is really more about Alayne being Littlefinger's daughter. He is not likely going to have sex with her while she is Alayne Stone. But he may want to marry her when she is Sansa Stark again.

And no, he of course very much loves her. He is also manipulating her, of course, but he is loving her. Love doesn't have to be pure to be love, you know.

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Yes they both see her innocence and naivete.  Sandor sees it and it makes him concerned for her.  He tries to tear the veil from her eyes to help her.  But what also makes him care particularly about her, is the she cared first when she took his side over what Gregor did.  She validated his feelings and told him it was wrong Gregor was rewarded.  She also never told anyone else about his secret.  Sandor doesn't go around rescuing every vulnerable, innocent person in KL.  He only does that for Sansa because she was genuinely kind to him (even when he was being mean), never betrayed him, and never exploited his vulnerability.  LF sees her innocence and preys upon it.  He uses it to manipulate her.  It's textbook 101 for how a sexual predator grooms a victim.

You are using a double standard here again. This isn't a book about sexual predators. Littlefinger isn't a sexual predator. For all we know he lives a celibate life. I doubt he had sex with anyone after Lysa left KL until they married (assuming they had a secret affair while she was at court). Littlefinger isn't a rapist or the kind of person who likes to prey on innocent women (or children). He is interested in Sansa only because she is Cat's daughter and looks like her. This is not a crime and not disgusting. It is what this man has become due to the events that shaped his life.

And Sandor and Littlefinger both don't really care about Sansa as a person all that much. What resonates with them is what she represents for them. By the way - how does Sandor know that Sansa never told anybody his true story? She could have, you know. He has no way of knowing that unless he is asking everyone he and she interact with.

3 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Sandor has noticed her physically (but honestly everyone in the castle has when he does), but when he realizes that she's still mentally immature, he backtracks the hell out of there.  It makes him uncomfortable.  LF creeps on her even before she developed and has forced kisses on her and touched her breast.  Sandor has never touched her in a sexual way.  Sandor has always tried to tell her the truth as he knows it and has protected her from harm when he could.  He's never used her or manipulated her.  The most terrible thing Sandor did was scare her in a drunken PTSD meltdown, something he felt horrible guilt over.  As horrible and wrong it is to demand anything from a scared girl at knifepoint, what he was demanding was the literal song of FLorian and Jonquil.  Not the metaphoric "song".  He already knows she's too young and not ready.  So even if he desired her (which I think he did), unlike LF, he does not force that desire upon her.  Her consent matters to him.  Nothing actually sexual happens in that scene and he doesn't force her to go with him against her will.  He even thinks he's the worst piece of shit for not doing more for her.  LF has no guilt about anything.  In fact, I think he implies he expects a sexual relationship to escalate after he marries her to HtH when her virginity isn't an issue. So even Sandor's worst incident is nothing compared to the really horrible sexual abuse LF is doing.  They are not the same.

You think so? Then you have a rather bad standard. I'm not Sansa nor a woman but in Sansa's age I'd very much have preferred the kisses of the uncle with the nice breath to the ugly and horrible face of a monster like Sandor Clegane who threatened to kill me. A man who killed the best friend of my sister and who therefore was more than capable to go through with said threat. But I guess that's just me. I don't like being touched and kissed against my will, of course, but I'd be much more concerned with horribly ugly faces and death threats if I were in a situation like Sansa.

As to readiness - we don't know how Littlefinger is going to play it when he finally wants to have sex with Sansa. He wants her to love him as he loves her so I don't think he'll push as much as you think that's what's he is doing there. He respects her as much as a man like he can. He honestly trains her own to use her assets best in the world they live in.

With Sandor we don't really know what he wants to do with her. What kind of sexual fantasies does he have? Does he want to make her truly understand what he means to be like him, pain included? We don't know. The man back in ACoK and ASoS sure as hell intended to teach her a lesson by raping her. It was the song that changed his mind. But that make him a good or nice person, just as it doesn't make an abusive husband good when he doesn't beat his wife once a day because of something unusual she said to him that day.

[Free Northman Reborn]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Are you on board with my take on that, too, if I say something similar about Jaime-Brienne ;-)?

I don't buy a lot of foreshadowing there, either. Especially not the dream thing. However, I do not discard the idea that they might getting closer in the future. But if there is going to be a romance there it first has to develop.

Catelyn herself might take Riverrun. She doesn't necessarily need Edmure. And if she does he can remarry, no? Roslin was in on the Red Wedding. She is as guilty as poor Merrett Frey.

The whole thing is even discussed in the books. When Robb talks to Cat about their first night he mentions it was the day he had the letter about Bran and Rickon. And, sure, Jeyne isn't some tavern wench and he deflowered her in her father's castle. There is no honorable way out of that but marriage.

But we also see later on how much Robb enjoys being around Jeyne's innocent brothers. Jeyne is a comfort to him on the emotional level but Rollam very much becomes a replacement for Bran and Rickon.

George wants to surprise himself with his writing, though. He knows where he wants the story to go but he doesn't know - nor does he want to know - the individual steps it takes to get there. And there are many break-out characters in that story that influenced and changed the overall story. Just think of characters like Brienne, not to mention all those POVs that were added from ACoK onwards.

Or take Arya's own journey. The original plan seems to have been to have get back to Winterfell and then to Wall eventually, where she was supposed to hook up with Jon. When did that change? When did George decide that this Jaqen character was some sort of sorcerer-assassin? When did he make the decision that Arya would go to Braavos to learn that craft, too? That wasn't planned back when he wrote AGoT, that's pretty clear.

In that sense a lot of those flirting or hanging-out with potential love interests might originally have been supposed to be more but then just turn out to be preparation for other romances/situations they find themselves in.

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by that? Do you think a 20-30-year-old Arya/Sansa might end up calling Gendry/Sandor asking him for a date?

If those things have relevance and meaning not just on the level of shaping the coming-of-age aspect of their stories then they are not that relevant for the plot.

Perhaps it is a problem of mine, but I want to read about romances that make sense for the characters involved in the story as well as in context of the plot of the story. That is a hallmark of good literature.

And I find it increasingly difficult to see the how Arya-Gendry or Sandor-Sansa could fit into this story in any way if we consider the overall plot. They are not exactly the character with the most chapters right now, and there are so many other things that are more relevant in relation to their characters and their stories than romances involving these people.

Revisiting those things would mean be a regress for all characters involved.

If Sansa is going to have a meaningful and relevant part to play in that story she will learn how to use men to her own ends. She will exert power the only way a woman can in this society. It will involve seduction, or at least the promise of seduction, but it does not really have to involve a marriage. Although that's certainly not that unlikely, either.

Arya doesn't fit into this society at all. She doesn't want to settle down and marry, and makes that clear as early as AGoT. She doesn't need men, nor is she the kind of person who needs all that much companionship or friendship. She can get along very well all by herself. And I'm pretty sure this independence is going to be enormously important for her. A guy like Gendry would only slow her down. She already realizes that both of them - Gendry less so than Hot Pie - are useless during their escape from Harrenhal. And while Gendry may have had some character growth along the way he simply cannot keep up with Arya. Pretty much nobody can in this story.

And I'm sorry - she is the psychopathic serial killer in this story. She still needs reasons to kill, of course, sometimes rather good reasons. And I'm sure she is not likely going to get down feel the urge to kill to such a degree that she has to cut a man's throat each month or so (like some of the really fucked-up serial killers had) but I'm also not sure she is ever going to want to abandon that lifestyle.

If Arya ended up settling down at Winterfell with anyone it would be the worst thing she possibly could do. Everything in her character and story indicates that she wants to be more than that. Much, much more.

I really think you are reading too much into all that. Especially into Sandor. The man has his own issues. He desires Sansa because she is beautiful like pretty much every man does, but what gets to him is what she represents, not what she is as a person. That she understands him and that he can relate to her makes things worse, not better or easier. It makes him want to hurt her because she sees through him. That is why he has to force her to keep quiet about his true story. It is also the reason why he cannot take her with him. He cannot drag her down to where he is nor can he destroy what is really so beautiful and innocent. He is not Gregor, after all.

Sansa thinks there is something good in this man because he doesn't mistreat her like all the knights in Joffrey's service do. But him being good Sansa for now doesn't mean she is correct in her assessment of him. We never get his POV, after all. For all we know he was very tempted to destroy Sansa - to rape her, beat her, hurt her, to show her what the world and men truly are like. Sandor suffered at the hands of the people in his life, the people who should have protected him and cared for him, and now he makes others suffer in turn. Sandor very much relishes in this idea that the world sucks and there are no gods, etc. He even mimics that kind of thing by being cruel to others. That's why he kills people. And that's why he tries to be the best killer there is, the man who isn't afraid of anything. Until he cannot face the fire.

The man on the Quiet Isle may have changed. If so, then this change would have been accomplished by the divine miracle of his healing. Sandor may have found his faith, after all. Just like Lancel did.

Sandor's own story isn't about Sansa, though. He left her and moved on. And he went through deep trauma of his own, being essentially sentenced to die the ugly and painful death of an animal in the middle of nowhere. Try to ask yourself what you may have felt in Sandor's shoes in the minutes and hours and days after Arya left you to rot. He would have begged the world and the gods for some sort of miracle, would have cried out to them to end his pain, would have confessed his sins either in word or thought (if he was too weak).

And then a miracle happened. A man of the Seven healed him. If that isn't going to set him on a new path I don't know what will.

But if you want to fantasize you can imagine that Sansa and Sandor will meet again in KL. He as a Warrior's Son and she as the wife of Harrold Hardyng - or a potential bride for Aegon - attended King Aegon VI's coronation in the Great Sept of Baelor. They can hook up all day long if they want to if it fits into the story. I actually like to read about weird and twisted love stories - and that's what Sandor-Sansa would be if George really gave us that. But the idea that Sandor is going to go on some quest to find Sansa makes little sense of his own position in life right now. He must have other priorities. Even if he magically found out where Sansa was he would have every reason to think she was well-protected and cared for in the Vale.

Gendry is gone again. He isn't with Cat/Brienne/Jaime right now. And I daresay these characters have more important things to do than to help Gendry along with his 'arc'. The boy is at best a side character in this story.

Oh, come on. I like to have sex, too. But I still wouldn't visit a brothel, just as I wouldn't have done so back in my adolescence. It is fake love and fake emotional closeness, after all. There is no wonder that Gendry doesn't like this kind of thing, especially not at his age. However, this doesn't mean he is unlikely to get close to another girl/woman now that Arya is gone. A woman/girl who genuinely loves him.

Sure, we don't see that - but we don't have to. Gendry isn't exactly a main character. The idea that he would for some reason only jerk off to think about Arya, saving himself for her, etc. is not very likely. I don't expect him to forget her immediately but if he were to find some nice girl he would hook up with her, especially if that was the only comfort he could hope for in this rather miserable life he has now.

Here you display a huge double standard. You judge Littlefinger harshly despite the fact that he is as much a product of his surroundings as everybody else. He and Sandor and two sides of the same coin. Littlefinger is the smart one and Sandor the strong guy, but they are the same. The idea that kissing some girls who want to play kissing with you at the age of eight is no sign of him being evil. This is not 'inappropriate behavior' in the world they are living in.

Littlefinger is a victim of class differences in this world. He is a bright and innocent young fellow who was given the enormous privilege of being raised as a ward of Lord Hoster Tully of Riverrun. It is basically the same as if you or I were raised in the household of billionaire and overtly treated as a member of the family. That chances your perspectives, changes your view on life, opens it up to new possibilities. You think life is good and everything will turn out to be fine.

But for Hoster Tully this boy is still nothing but a beggar. A child he took in and which should be grateful for that honor but sure as hell stay away from his daughters.

Littlefinger has every reason to believe both Cat and Lysa loved him. Have you forgotten that he believes to this day that Cat loved him to because he mistook Lysa for Catelyn? That is why he challenges Brandon. He thinks Catelyn loves him and expects this of him. He thinks 'Family, Duty, Honor' compel her to marry Brandon but that she would take him if she were able to follow her heart.

Now, Littlefinger never would have been a modest guy, he would always have been eager to prove his worth an excel at the things he could do. But he would have never done down the path he did had Hoster granted him Catelyn's hand, that's as clear as crystal. That's why this back story of his is in there.

That he doesn't like his fool of a father (he was, after all, a guy paying some charlatan for prophecies he could have made himself) or his own humble upbringing is not surprising. He was raised at Riverrun with the Tullys, was friends with Edmure (who mentions him in his talk with Jaime in AFfC) - who on earth would enjoy spending time in this dreadful tower?

Littlefinger has traits of a psychopath, just as Arya and Jaime do, but he is still capable of loving people, and he loved Catelyn very much, just as he really loves Sansa now. George lays out how he sees Sansa in this clip he took for the show a while back. It is three-fold - he sees her as a love interest, a younger, more beautiful version of Catelyn, the daughter he may have had with Catelyn had they married as they were supposed to (remember, he thinks Cat loved him as much as he loved her), and then he also sees her as pawn in the political game as he sees everybody else, too. It is a very complex emotional situation, and it is very interesting to see which side is going to win out.

In relation to the fact that Littlefinger is clearly a version of Arkin Ruark from George's Dying of the Light I've an idea what side might win out in the books. And we should always keep in mind that Cat is still/again out there. It is not unlikely at all that she and Littlefinger are going to meet again. Somebody has to tell him that he never slept with Catelyn, that she never loved him. And only Catelyn can tell him that. Lysa is dead, after all.

He has not yet sexually abused her. They are playing this father-daughter game right now, and that is really more about Alayne being Littlefinger's daughter. He is not likely going to have sex with her while she is Alayne Stone. But he may want to marry her when she is Sansa Stark again.

And no, he of course very much loves her. He is also manipulating her, of course, but he is loving her. Love doesn't have to be pure to be love, you know.

You are using a double standard here again. This isn't a book about sexual predators. Littlefinger isn't a sexual predator. For all we know he lives a celibate life. I doubt he had sex with anyone after Lysa left KL until they married (assuming they had a secret affair while she was at court). Littlefinger isn't a rapist or the kind of person who likes to prey on innocent women (or children). He is interested in Sansa only because she is Cat's daughter and looks like her. This is not a crime and not disgusting. It is what this man has become due to the events that shaped his life.

And Sandor and Littlefinger both don't really care about Sansa as a person all that much. What resonates with them is what she represents for them. By the way - how does Sandor know that Sansa never told anybody his true story? She could have, you know. He has no way of knowing that unless he is asking everyone he and she interact with.

You think so? Then you have a rather bad standard. I'm not Sansa nor a woman but in Sansa's age I'd very much have preferred the kisses of the uncle with the nice breath to the ugly and horrible face of a monster like Sandor Clegane who threatened to kill me. A man who killed the best friend of my sister and who therefore was more than capable to go through with said threat. But I guess that's just me. I don't like being touched and kissed against my will, of course, but I'd be much more concerned with horribly ugly faces and death threats if I were in a situation like Sansa.

As to readiness - we don't know how Littlefinger is going to play it when he finally wants to have sex with Sansa. He wants her to love him as he loves her so I don't think he'll push as much as you think that's what's he is doing there. He respects her as much as a man like he can. He honestly trains her own to use her assets best in the world they live in.

With Sandor we don't really know what he wants to do with her. What kind of sexual fantasies does he have? Does he want to make her truly understand what he means to be like him, pain included? We don't know. The man back in ACoK and ASoS sure as hell intended to teach her a lesson by raping her. It was the song that changed his mind. But that make him a good or nice person, just as it doesn't make an abusive husband good when he doesn't beat his wife once a day because of something unusual she said to him that day.

Lord Varys. I've been trying to send you a PM on a different topic, but it says you can't receive messages. When you have a moment, please check if your inbox is perhaps full. Thanks.

[SeanF]

@Lord Varys.

LF was obsessed with Catelyn. In the light of his actions, one can hardly say that he loved her.  If you love somebody, you don't plot the ruin of her family.

 

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Lord Varys. I've been trying to send you a PM on a different topic, but it says you can't receive messages. When you have a moment, please check if your inbox is perhaps full. Thanks.

I think it is full but can't you continue in our last conversation? I'm deleting stuff momentarily, though.

15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

@Lord Varys.

LF was obsessed with Catelyn. In the light of his actions, one can hardly say that he loved her.  If you love somebody, you don't plot the ruin of her family.

Quite honestly, does love have to be pure and selfless and bereft of all evil? I don't think so.

I think Littlefinger gladly ruined the Tullys who treated him like shit - especially Hoster and Edmure (who betrayed him when he chose to serve Brandon as a squire) - but I'm not so sure he is aware he is harming Catelyn all that much in what he is doing.

Keep in mind that he thinks she loved or loves him still. He thinks she isn't honest to him when they meet again because 'Family, Duty, Honor' compel her to stick with Ned. But once Ned is gone who knows what might happen. I mean, the man seems to honestly think he is freeing Catelyn from a marriage she never really wanted.

Now, Sansa sort of becomes a replacement for Catelyn but unfortunately we don't know what effect the Red Wedding had on him. It would be very interesting to know his private reaction to that.