Where is the love?

[Meera of Tarth]

8 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

If this is about Gendry - might he be doing the same thing as Jon S.?

"I will not father a bastard?"

I don't think there is the same concern like Jon SNow, since he hasn't experienced the rejection from part of his noble family (Cat) as he has not had it; but it's a good point to add into the mixture of reasons. However, I think that his personality and Arya are the biggest reasons. Also, as @sweetsunray pointed out, because he is not mentally as older as we would think yet.

[SeanF]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think it is full but can't you continue in our last conversation? I'm deleting stuff momentarily, though.

Quite honestly, does love have to be pure and selfless and bereft of all evil? I don't think so.

I think Littlefinger gladly ruined the Tullys who treated him like shit - especially Hoster and Edmure (who betrayed him when he chose to serve Brandon as a squire) - but I'm not so sure he is aware he is harming Catelyn all that much in what he is doing.

Keep in mind that he thinks she loved or loves him still. He thinks she isn't honest to him when they meet again because 'Family, Duty, Honor' compel her to stick with Ned. But once Ned is gone who knows what might happen. I mean, the man seems to honestly think he is freeing Catelyn from a marriage she never really wanted.

Now, Sansa sort of becomes a replacement for Catelyn but unfortunately we don't know what effect the Red Wedding had on him. It would be very interesting to know his private reaction to that.

I think that love does involve some selflessness and altruism.

To begin with, he's been bragging at court that he took Catelyn's virginity.  That would be pretty sleazy in any modern society, but in a society like Westeros, he's implying that Catelyn is a whore.

Then he gets Lysa to write to Catelyn, putting the blame for Jon Arryn's death on Cersei.  Later he tells her that Tyrion tried to murder her son, setting in train Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion, and war with the Lannisters.  Then he betrays Ned, after plotting a coup with him.  Subsequently, he serves the Lannisters who are fighting Catelyn's son.

Perhaps, he thought that at the end of all that, the Lannisters would give him Catelyn as a prize, and perhaps they would, had she not been murdered.  But, his behaviour is grossly selfish, not loving.

[Meera of Tarth]

6 hours ago, JordanJH1993 said:

Maybe Gendry just didn't sleep with the girl because he could well be a virgin and somehow wanted to savour the moment - or that he was just nervous about doing it. There is something innocent and dumb about Gendry; Arya points it out by calling him stupid. For me, I find it hard to depict him as a silver tongued womaniser, which makes me think he isn't all that good with women.

My response was gonna be the same:

6 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Oh the Gendry that "blushes like a maid" when he's being hit on?  Who firmly rejects the offer to have his bell rung twice?  He was clearly uncomfortable with being offered a freebie.  Please point to the text that leads you to be so certain that he's suddenly now following his dick around everywhere, because that characterization is absurd.  I think it's pretty clear Gendry is not his womanizing father.  That's really funny how you think "the shippers" are making mountains out of molehills when you just pulled some unsubstantiated bullshit out of thin air to try to prove your point. 

 

[Meera of Tarth]

6 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

The literary tool of foreshadowing actually makes a great deal of sense when your characters are young.  Mentally Arya and Sansa are not ready for an adult relationship.  If George wants it to ultimately come to a positive romantic story, he can't have it starting literally on page when they aren't ready.  That would be clueless and unconscionable to expect the reader to accept it as a positive romance; however, he can let us know his future intentions and play with the idea "safely" by using subtext, symbolism, and foreshadowing.  Things the characters are not aware of, but readers are.  The relationship then avoids being tainted in the present while setting us up for the future, when the timing is right and the characters are ready.  Unlike many of the pairings you listed, I don't think we get a sense of finality with Sansa/Sandor and Arya Gendry.  There's more of a sense of things left hanging and unfinished business by the abrupt way they each separated.  The separation is actually a good thing, because it allows for some necessary character growth on everyone's part.  Our personal approval or disapproval of a pairing is ultimately irrelevant to the story George wants to tell. There are things I think are boring too, but that only indicates my personal tastes or interests.  It's no way to measure the importance of something George has in mind.  He knows why he's doing what he's doing, even if sometimes we don't.  

As for why I think those pairings would be relevant to the story...  I think George has shown us how deeply flawed this patriarchal traditional system is.  Both these girls have been sought after for that purpose.  Arya was promised to a Frey because Robb needed it, even though he married for love.  A fake Arya is being used to legitimize the Boltons claim on Winterfell.  Sansa was wed to Tyrion for the purpose of placing a Lannister in Winterfell and obliterating House Stark for good.  There were also the Tyrells, Lysa wanting her to SR, we found out LF asked Cersei to let him wed her, and now Harrold Hardyng.  FFS, these girls just continue to be up for grabs to be used to bolster the power of other male characters.  I find it hard to believe considering that they are important POVs that all George can imagine is yet another arranged marriage as a major plot point and contribution.  It's a very heavily beaten dead horse and has never meant anything good so far.  I do think George has something completely different in mind for them, something that utilizes their established story and individual talents.  Why would it be a useless thing to have partnerships that validate their individuality and the major themes in the arcs that George gave them?

I completely agree with all that. The literally tool of foreshadowing is very important in that sense as separation is. And we can see separation as a classic romantic plot device. It's even part of Jaime and Brienne's journey as characters, even they both are adults in this case, but Jaime's case with Cersei also needs time to make the relationship more credible, they were not prepared. A good romance needs time to be developed in an effective way. 

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

You think so? Then you have a rather bad standard. I'm not Sansa nor a woman but in Sansa's age I'd very much have preferred the kisses of the uncle with the nice breath to the ugly and horrible face of a monster like Sandor Clegane who threatened to kill me. A man who killed the best friend of my sister and who therefore was more than capable to go through with said threat. But I guess that's just me. I don't like being touched and kissed against my will, of course, but I'd be much more concerned with horribly ugly faces and death threats if I were in a situation like Sansa.

This thought is really creepy. You prefer being kissed by the husband of your aunt than by a man who you dream of having kissed even if he has his face half burned due to the meanness of his brother? I mean, wow.

I get you don't like Sandor. But a girl of Sansa's age just doesn't like being kissed by LF. NOpe. She rejects him. She feels it's wrong. Even if his mouth tastes like mint.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Arya doesn't fit into this society at all. She doesn't want to settle down and marry, and makes that clear as early as AGoT. She doesn't need men, nor is she the kind of person who needs all that much companionship or friendship. She can get along very well all by herself. And I'm pretty sure this independence is going to be enormously important for her. A guy like Gendry would only slow her down. She already realizes that both of them - Gendry less so than Hot Pie - are useless during their escape from Harrenhal. And while Gendry may have had some character growth along the way he simply cannot keep up with Arya. Pretty much nobody can in this story.

And I'm sorry - she is the psychopathic serial killer in this story. She still needs reasons to kill, of course, sometimes rather good reasons. And I'm sure she is not likely going to get down feel the urge to kill to such a degree that she has to cut a man's throat each month or so (like some of the really fucked-up serial killers had) but I'm also not sure she is ever going to want to abandon that lifestyle.

Nope and nope.

Again, you are just inventing everything to fit what you would like to happen, but it's not the truth.

How many times have we seen Arya missing her family and pack?

How many times have we seen Arya caring abut the others?

Yes, even sometimes when she kills people she does it to avenge what they did to the people she cares about. So she is not a psycopath, a psycopath wouldn NEVER do that; she is neither a person who doesn't care about people. You can continue saying these false statements without proving quotes or not trying to read what others posters comment about this, but it's not the truth because the books say the contrary.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

This thought is really creepy. You prefer being kissed by the husband of your aunt than by a man who you dream of having kissed even if he has his face half burned due to the meanness of his brother? I mean, wow.

That isn't what I said. I meant that at the time Sandor threatens to kill Sansa and intimidates her by forcing her to watch this ugly face of his as if he was a monster from some horror movie is much less damaging to her psyche than what Littlefinger does to her later. In fact, what makes Sansa interested in Sandor in the first place is the fact that she is so mistreated by all those knights she thought were supposed to be good men, including her her darling Joffrey.

It is that mental and physical abuse in combination with Sandor not abusing her in the same fashion that causes her to turn to him. Had Littlefinger had the guts to stand up for in the open instead of manipulating things behind the scenes she would have formed an emotional connection with him. He would have been her knight. Now he isn't. That is a problem for him.

Once Sansa begins to fantasize about Sandor things are different, of course. Just as it is okay when you fantasize about being whipped that you are whipped one day after all. But we shouldn't make the mistake of assuming that Sansa would ever have fantasized about Sandor or turned towards him had she not gone through what she did in KL.

If Loras, Littlefinger, or any other man had stood up for they would have been her hero. Not the ugly drunken creep with the burned face. He may have still gotten her pity and all, but nothing more.

40 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think that love does involve some selflessness and altruism.

To begin with, he's been bragging at court that he took Catelyn's virginity.  That would be pretty sleazy in any modern society, but in a society like Westeros, he's implying that Catelyn is a whore.

Well, I never said he love remained the same. Perhaps he got over it up to a point. It is difficult to say, really. However, it seems that a man in this world is perfectly fine with talking about his conquests. Cat was a married to a great lord of the Realm at this point, just as Lysa was, so this was hardly something that could tarnish their reputation all that much.

40 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Then he gets Lysa to write to Catelyn, putting the blame for Jon Arryn's death on Cersei.  Later he tells her that Tyrion tried to murder her son, setting in train Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion, and war with the Lannisters.  Then he betrays Ned, after plotting a coup with him.  Subsequently, he serves the Lannisters who are fighting Catelyn's son.

Sure, but do we know what he actually wanted to do? He didn't want Cat to abduct Tyrion. And he was willing to work with Ned instead of the Lannisters when Robert died. Ned turned against him there. And you have to keep in mind that Sansa entered the picture. He wants her since he first saw her. She is better than Catelyn. Imagine for a moment Ned and Littlefinger had worked together, dealing with Cersei, Tywin, Stannis, etc. What would have been Littlefinger's reward in all this?

A great seat for himself and Sansa's hand. And I daresay there is chance that he would have been content with that.

40 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Perhaps, he thought that at the end of all that, the Lannisters would give him Catelyn as a prize, and perhaps they would, had she not been murdered.  But, his behaviour is grossly selfish, not loving.

It isn't what we would describe as selfless love or including a lot empathy for others. But - again - we don't know his exact feelings for Catelyn when she died. And it is not really necessary that you care about the wife, siblings, children, etc. of a person you are in love with to love her. It is enough that you love her. Now, is it possible that this a problematic love? Certainly.

At the core of Littlefinger's problem is a very crucial error. The error that he believes Catelyn actually loved him as much as he loved her. And that she wanted to be with him. That's what twisted him. The fact that the rules of the society they live in forced them both to not be together.

That would be a very interesting question for George, actually - is he going to investigate this issue in later books, will we learn what Littlefinger felt and thought when he heard about Catelyn's death?

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Nope and nope.

Again, you are just inventing everything to fit what you would like to happen, but it's not the truth.

How many times have we seen Arya missing her family and pack?

How many times have we seen Arya caring abut the others?

Yes, even sometimes when she kills people she does it to avenge what they did to the people she cares about. So she is not a psycopath, a psycopath wouldn NEVER do that; she is neither a person who doesn't care about people. You can continue saying these false statements without proving quotes or not trying to read what others posters comment about this, but it's not the truth because the books say the contrary.

You should read up what a psychopath actually is. They still have feelings, you know. They are just reduced feelings. They can like and miss their friends and family, etc. They are just more detached from their own emotions than 'normal people'.

You react as if I'm saying Arya is a psychopath is an insult. It is not. You don't have to defend her. It is clinical term that is not inappropriate to describe her. Especially in light of the traumas she went through. Those are the kind of things that shape psychopaths in real life, too. Both the murderous and the functional psychopaths.

[Darksnider05]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

You should read up what a psychopath actually is. They still have feelings, you know. They are just reduced feelings. They can like and miss their friends and family, etc. They are just more detached from their own emotions than 'normal people'.

You react as if I'm saying Arya is a psychopath is an insult. It is not. You don't have to defend her. It is clinical term that is not inappropriate to describe her. Especially in light of the traumas she went through. Those are the kind of things that shape psychopaths in real life, too. Both the murderous and the functional psychopaths.

At no point has this been the case even post RW and early into her FM training.  At best you might be able to make an argument for her gaining control of her emotions as she gets further into her training and her learning to master her facial expressions daily begins.  Feeling strongly has been her entire theme and learning what to do with those feelings when just feeling won't change anything.

Humans have been killing humans for the majority of history their not all psychopaths because of it. 

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Darksnider05 said:

At no point has this been the case even post RW and early into her FM training.  At best you might be able to make an argument for her gaining control of her emotions as gets further into her training and her learning to master her facial expressions daily begins.  Feeling strongly has been her entire theme and learning what to do with those feelings when just feeling won't change anything.

Arya still has feelings for some people, but not for her victims. She has no empathy for them. Read the sections that depict her murders. If she still had normal emotions and normal levels of empathy she would react the way she did when she killed that stable boy in AGoT. But she doesn't. That kill shocked her or tormented her a great deal. But she never gives the Northman she kills at Harrenhal another thought, nor does she regret any of her other killings.

Consciously making an effort to repress and ignore your feelings is what makes you a psychopath. If you do that kind of thing while going through a lot of stress and trauma up till the age of about fifteen your brain changes the way it processes emotion. (Murderous) psychopaths are usually made, not born. And Arya is one in the making. Considering that she not exactly going to get proper therapy in Westeros chances are very high that this a journey without return.

But as people keep saying - this isn't a thread about Arya. But to get back on topic - Gendry surely deserves a better love interest than Arya. Nobody in his or her right mind would want to live with/have a relationship with a person that did what Arya did. Chances are not that bad that she is going to cut your throat if you are breaking up with her, after all.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

3 hours ago, John Doe said:

I agree wholeheartedly with your post, but this part i don't agree with. It's true that Westeros is a patriarchy, but I disagree about arranged marriage being a gender issue. Male characters are used to not being asked who they marry too. Ned stepped up to marry Cat because his brother died. Or think about Harold Hardyng who had his marriage to Sansa, which he didn't want, arranged by a female character. Lysa wants Sansa to wed Sweetrobin too, and she is a woman. Tyrion had the one marriage he did like taken away from him and got a marriage he didn't like  instead. Olenna is scheming to marry Sansa as much as the male characters are. The real problem is that women in their society are much more restricted in other areas, but arranged marriage is not portrayed as a question of gender, imo

Couple of things.  I agree there are no winners under patriarchy, including men.  I do feel sympathy for male characters being forced into marriages they are unhappy with.  Sometimes women also utilize the system against other women when they can for selfish purpose.  That It doesn't negate the fact that often the women will get the shorter end of the stick and the system is skewed in favor of men.  It's not equally bad for both men and women.  A man can rape his wife and it's not a crime.  It's his right.  Law and custom is still skewed in favor of male property rights.  If a wife brings wealth and property into a marriage, it belongs to her husband.  Even if she were to physically leave and live a separate life, she must also give up her children in that process.  They're his heirs and would remain in his custody.  That would be a huge deterrent for many in trying to leave a bad marriage.  Men still have the final say in all decisions.  So much of what the septas teach their charges is how to be pleasing and submissive.  There's also the burden of risk women face in pregnancy and childbirth, which again coupled with husbands being allowed to exercise their rights over her body gives her not much say in reproduction unless she secretly takes moontea on the sly.  All a man is really required to do is get at least one male heir from his wife preferably.  After a smooth succession is secured, he doesn't have to have sex with his wife again if he doesn't want to.  There's nothing stopping him from having lovers.  Do women have the right to seek out lovers?  Nope.  Not without risk and consequences to herself.  This is all very normalized and condoned by every institution in Westeros.  Now most men don't go abusing their wives even if it's a loveless marriage.  Most are men are not total shit bags and do try to have a pleasant relationship with their wives, but one can't deny that the system would protect them if they were total shit bags.  Ned is 95% a very good loving husband, but even he exercised his rights as the ultimate authority.  If a woman is being mistreated, she doesn't really have any recourse.  In all your examples, men still have the most amount of choice.  Ned was Lord of Winterfell and chose to marry Cat.  Harold Hardyng is not betrothed yet.  It's made clear the betrothal hinges upon his approval.  SR is the only exception as a minor child.  Even in both those cases, nothing happens until Tyrion dies or the marriage is somehow annulled.  Olenna can scheme and she wields influence, but ultimately who marries Willas is still officially up to Mace or Willas if Mace dies.  

[Darksnider05]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Arya still has feelings for some people, but not for her victims. She has no empathy for them. Read the sections that depict her murders. If she still had normal emotions and normal levels of empathy she would react the way she did when she killed that stable boy in AGoT. But she doesn't. That kill shocked her or tormented her a great deal. But she never gives the Northman she kills at Harrenhal another thought, nor does she regret any of her other killings.

Consciously making an effort to repress and ignore your feelings is what makes you a psychopath. If you do that kind of thing while going through a lot of stress and trauma up till the age of about fifteen your brain changes the way it processes emotion. (Murderous) psychopaths are usually made, not born. And Arya is one in the making. Considering that she not exactly going to get proper therapy in Westeros chances are very high that this a journey without return.

But as people keep saying - this isn't a thread about Arya. But to get back on topic - Gendry surely deserves a better love interest than Arya. Nobody in his or her right mind would want to live with/have a relationship with a person that did what Arya did. Chances are not that bad that she is going to cut your throat if you are breaking up with her, after all.

You do know that for modern soldiers the actual answer to does killing get easier is "yes after the first time" literally that's a normal reaction to combat.  That's a normal reaction to anything once the shock wears through and Arya did actually have further thoughts on it.  

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Darksnider05 said:

You do know that for modern soldiers the actual answer to does killing get easier is "yes after the first time" literally that's a normal reaction to combat.  That's a normal reaction to anything once the shock wears through and Arya did actually have further thoughts on it.  

Sure, there is a correlation there. Soldiers are trained killers, too. But that isn't a good thing, you know.

However, Arya is no soldier. She is murdering child who has no issues whatsoever with what she is doing. That is very, very disturbing. It is also great literature, of course. The Mercy chapter is easily George's best prose in the last couple of years.

I don't like to be around people who may think about how they would kill me if they felt they had to without it affecting their blood pressure and overall friendly demeanor. And Arya basically is such a person now.

14 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Couple of things.  I agree there are no winners under patriarchy, including men.  I do feel sympathy for male characters being forced into marriages they are unhappy with.  Sometimes women also utilize the system against other women when they can for selfish purpose.  That It doesn't negate the fact that often the women will get the shorter end of the stick and the system is skewed in favor of men.  It's not equally bad for both men and women.  A man can rape his wife and it's not a crime.  It's his right.  Law and custom is still skewed in favor of male property rights.  If a wife brings wealth and property into a marriage, it belongs to her husband.  Even if she were to physically leave and live a separate life, she must also give up her children in that process.  They're his heirs and would remain in his custody.  That would be a huge deterrent for many in trying to leave a bad marriage.  Men still have the final say in all decisions.  So much of what the septas teach their charges is how to be pleasing and submissive.  There's also the burden of risk women face in pregnancy and childbirth, which again coupled with husbands being allowed to exercise their rights over her body gives her not much say in reproduction unless she secretly takes moontea on the sly.  All a man is really required to do is get at least one male heir from his wife preferably.  After a smooth succession is secured, he doesn't have to have sex with his wife again if he doesn't want to.  There's nothing stopping him from having lovers.  Do women have the right to seek out lovers?  Nope.  Not without risk and consequences to herself.  This is all very normalized and condoned by every institution in Westeros.  Now most men don't go abusing their wives even if it's a loveless marriage.  Most are men are not total shit bags and do try to have a pleasant relationship with their wives, but one can't deny that the system would protect them if they were total shit bags.  Ned is 95% a very good loving husband, but even he exercised his rights as the ultimate authority.  If a woman is being mistreated, she doesn't really have any recourse.  In all your examples, men still have the most amount of choice.  Ned was Lord of Winterfell and chose to marry Cat.  Harold Hardyng is not betrothed yet.  It's made clear the betrothal hinges upon his approval.  SR is the only exception as a minor child.  Even in both those cases, nothing happens until Tyrion dies or the marriage is somehow annulled.  Olenna can scheme and she wields influence, but ultimately who marries Willas is still officially up to Mace or Willas if Mace dies.  

Patriarchy isn't really a problem for men aside from the expressing themselves outside of the the common gender role they are supposed to fulfill (i.e. especially doing things that are considered to be 'unmanly'). The arranged marriages can be somewhat unpleasant for them - say, if you end up with a wife like Selyse - but that they don't have to live together in any meaningful way. They can have separate apartments and households in the same castle, never interacting with each other in their private lives. And men can go to brothels and have as many lovers and mistresses as they want.

But those are mainly luxury problems. As a class/group men are undoubtedly in charge and that's nothing they are likely to complain about (they do not in real life, either).

And wives don't only have to do whatever their husbands say (including marital rape, of course) they also can (and apparently should) be physically chastised by their husbands. The Rule of Six restricts wife-beating to six beats a day with a rod a thick as a finger. That isn't exactly very progressive and still allows husbands to beat their wives to death as evidence by the fate of Merry Meg.

I never thought Westeros was a particularly progressive fake medieval fantasy world but what we learned in TWoIaF really turned my stomach. George has created a world in which women are essentially little more than chattel. And we get only the faintest of glimpses how bad life is for the average female commoner. Merry Meg is a very discouraging example.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

So much to say. So much has been written since I last came on the site and it has taken me ages to read through all the posts. Some stuff has been covered by others and I honestly wonder if there is any point in trying to discuss as some posters truly seem to have a massive comprehension issue.  Both in literature and actual human beings. 

I'll start with the issue which has reared it's ugly head after having been blessedly absent from the forums for some time. female autonomy. So many people ridicule the actual analysis of the text and literary techniques used as "shipping" and yet.... and yet..... also like to propose random characters as partners for these two ladies because they deem that character appropriate. Oh so often due to nothing more than being a similar age! or being "nicer" than the male whom she actually has an attraction to and the text leads the reader to expect her to couple up with.  Guess what books don't work like that. the author doesn't care what you or anyone else thinks to his pairings. He'll write the story he wants to write even if you personally can't stomach a female character choosing a sexual partner you disapprove of. 

Ask yourselves this too, why do you think these men have to give something to their respective female characters? Do you think women only engage in romantic relationships for some sort of gain? I've got some information for you. No, we don't.   

I couldn't give a shit what anyone thinks of the age gaps, or unsuitability. Fuck off with that sanctimonious bollocks. The ages are young for some characters to be doing the things they are doing. This has been acknowledged by the author so just let go of it.  But tbh aside from that I've been having sex since I was 13 and so personally no I don't think it is absurd to imagine characters of a similar age in the books having relationships. 

I especially love the hypocrisy of insisting Gendry must be having lots of sex with loads of women, but disliking the idea of Sansa having sex with a man of her own choosing. Gendry is 15/16 and Sansa will be probably 14/15 when she has sex. OMG, clutch your pearls to your twinset guys.......the horror!!!!! 

It's almost as enjoyable as the double standard where no one mentions that Cersei sexually abused and exploited Lancel. Her cousin a boy barely older than her own son. Not that anyone has mentioned that one in this thread but My gosh do people ignore that one whilst exclaiming horror at the idea of Sansa engaging in a mutually consensual uncoerced sexual relationship with a guy she actually fancies. 

I'm particularly weirded out by the idea that it is better to be sexually assaulted by a good-looking man with nice breath than it is to desire an inappropriate one.  And kissing and touching someone against their will is sexual assault. Consent is such an important word, and for those of you have evidenced how much to have failed to understand it or it's importance there are lots of really good analogies online these days. though with the serious lack of reading comprehension going on in this thread maybe these people need something more literal. 

Also, he's playing daddy-daughter games. Errrrrr What the actual fuck! This is beyond gross. His daddy - daughter games include forcing kisses on her mouth and face, sitting her in his lap AKA dick zone, just saying. hey, ladies, we've all been there with a guy pressing his hard on up against us in a bar or the tube etc. It's so errrrr unfuckingwanted and intrusive and yeah assault.  and brushing her breast with his hands. I'm pretty sure my dad was a sociopath. But he never sat me on his lap kissed me on the mouth and touched my tits. I'm pretty certain that shit is badly wrong and he had no moral compass cos, yeah he tried to murder me. Three times!

 LF's games are abusive and disgusting. he's a pimp too don't forget so although I agree he loves her in a fucked up, one-sided, unhealthy way his view of women as sexual commodities is well established. You don't have to be mentally healthy to fall in love and even stalkers who rape and murder their victims feel like they love them. This, however, doesn't really equate to anything other than him being an abuser. Who has no respect for women at all. He is by far and away more toxic than Sandor but that is beside the point and here it is again for those at the back who may have missed it.... CONSENT. AUTONOMY. AGENCY. 

Sansa has her own arc she's a major POV character her story is largely about the things I typed in caps above, Sandor is a side character who is there to serve her plot. And her plot can exist on its own merit it doesn't need anyone's approval. Her story is about finding agency in a world which denies it to her because of her sex.  I'm sure it will fit into the overarching story just fine in the end. As will Arya's. Who I don't foresee as a happy ever after cos I think she'll die. But again her story is her journey she is an important character and her story being about her matters. It will fit into the main plot in a way which works for her. But her story will still be about finding herself and being comfortable in her own skin.  

These characters all fit together to form a big picture story, of course, they do but each is also on their own individual journey. They're all having a coming of age story tied up in a big fat fantasy fight to save the world hero's quest tale.  Some of their stories follow classic romance themes others are about the son setting out on his own to prove his worth. Sometimes the character whose engaged in that story has had their sex flipped and sometimes the tropes are set on their heads. But overall the patterns involved follow time honoured traditional story telling techniques. 

BTW, some of us saw the things coming which have been listed as Oh such a surprise!! It's called being an observant and well-read reader.  

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'll start with the issue which has reared it's ugly head after having been blessedly absent from the forums for some time. female autonomy. So many people ridicule the actual analysis of the text and literary techniques used as "shipping" and yet.... and yet..... also like to propose random characters as partners for these two ladies because they deem that character appropriate. Oh so often due to nothing more than being a similar age! or being "nicer" than the male whom she actually has an attraction to and the text leads the reader to expect her to couple up with.  Guess what books don't work like that. the author doesn't care what you or anyone else thinks to his pairings. He'll write the story he wants to write even if you personally can't stomach a female character choosing a sexual partner you disapprove of. 

Do you want to turn the whole thing around now? There is no reason to assume that Arya-Gendry or Sansa-Sandor will ever have a romantic or sexual relationship. That's just in people's head as to this point. It may be elaborated upon ... or not. Deal with it. If well-written it could make sense and even work in the framework of the story. But I don't see how right now. I simply don't see it. Especially not since all the characters involved (aside from Gendry, who could just as well never show up again) are likely to have their own journeys ahead of them. They don't have to ever see each other again to live meaningful lives or contribute to the story in a meaningful and important fashion.

17 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Ask yourselves this too, why do you think these men have to give something to their respective female characters? Do you think women only engage in romantic relationships for some sort of gain? I've got some information for you. No, we don't.

That is irrelevant to the topic while the basics of a relationship are right now completely missing. In Sandor-Sansa somewhat less so than in Gendry-Arya but while you are not physically close and don't know where the other person is or whether he or she is still alive there is no relationship.

And, sure, I think Arya has nothing good to offer to Gendry (who is really a nice lad, and no serial killer like she is) just as Sandor has nothing to offer to Sansa. That would be twisted and unhealthy relationship at best, something that wouldn't help Sansa at all. I judge those relationships by the same standards as my own. Love is great and all, but love isn't enough. I'm not with my girlfriend for six years tomorrow because she is a gorgeous I very much sexually desire (she is and I do) but also because she is a very interesting person with whom I have a lot in common. I cannot imagine anything remotely of that sort in Arya-Gendry or Sansa-Sandor. 

17 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I couldn't give a shit what anyone thinks of the age gaps, or unsuitability. Fuck off with that sanctimonious bollocks. The ages are young for some characters to be doing the things they are doing. This has been acknowledged by the author so just let go of it.  But tbh aside from that I've been having sex since I was 13 and so personally no I don't think it is absurd to imagine characters of a similar age in the books having relationships. 

I'm not really sure how your sex life figures into this (although depending on the laws in your country you may have been the victim of a sex crime if the age gap was large enough, but I'm sure you are aware of that). My girlfriend is five years and five months younger than but I only met her when I was twenty-eight. If I had been sixteen at that time we first met I'd have had no interest whatsoever in a ten-year-old.

And the age gap between Gendry and Arya is somewhere in that field. People in that age change a lot. Children seldom form romantic attachments that last. The idea that a 10-year-old Arya (and yes, she is ten in ACoK) should feel anything deep or profound for Gendry is just not very convincing.

17 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I especially love the hypocrisy of insisting Gendry must be having lots of sex with loads of women, but disliking the idea of Sansa having sex with a man of her own choosing. Gendry is 15/16 and Sansa will be probably 14/15 when she has sex. OMG, clutch your pearls to your twinset guys.......the horror!!!!! 

Nobody says anything about Sansa not being allowed to have sex with a man of her choosing. We just don't buy that Sandor will ever be the man of her choosing.

This has nothing to do with hypocrisy. It is somewhat cute, though, that you think Gendry would keep his virginity for Arya. Not very likely but cute.

17 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

It's almost as enjoyable as the double standard where no one mentions that Cersei sexually abused and exploited Lancel. Her cousin a boy barely older than her own son. Not that anyone has mentioned that one in this thread but My gosh do people ignore that one whilst exclaiming horror at the idea of Sansa engaging in a mutually consensual uncoerced sexual relationship with a guy she actually fancies. 

That has nothing to do with anything. And I'm pretty sure Lancel was as horny and willing to have sex with his cousin as Cersei was eager to pleasure him. Cersei is a very attractive woman and the very idea that Lancel is the victim of a sexual predator is laughable in this context. Lancel repeatedly tells us that he loved Cersei. 

17 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm particularly weirded out by the idea that it is better to be sexually assaulted by a good-looking man with nice breath than it is to desire an inappropriate one.  And kissing and touching someone against their will is sexual assault. Consent is such an important word, and for those of you have evidenced how much to have failed to understand it or it's importance there are lots of really good analogies online these days. though with the serious lack of reading comprehension going on in this thread maybe these people need something more literal. 

You are completely confusing what I said. I said that I, personally, would sure as hell prefer being touched and kissed by Littlefinger than being frightened and threatened with murder by a brute like Sandor. Because the former is quickly over, and I can avoid Unclie Creep from now on. The latter is not going away. This evil man who murdered the best friend of my sister with impunity has threatened my own life. He is out there and may kill me.

Sansa later changes her view of Sandor somewhat but she is always afraid of him. And for a very good reason. Later on her views change somewhat but that's when Sandor is no longer there. Is she missing Sandor as a person? Or just feeling safe with a man like him? That is completely unclear. I'd assume the latter rather than former.

It is also quite clear that killing people and threatening to kill people are worse crimes in our societies than kissing or touching someone. I'm sure we all agree on that.

I also have to say that consent is pretty much irrelevant in Westeros. People are coerced into sexual activities all the time. All wives are (in principle) subject to marital rape in Westeros - Lysa and Cersei most certainly wouldn't have had sex with their husbands, ever, if they had a choice in the matter. And Dany was basically continuously raped by Drogo until she liked it. Even Jon is basically raped/coerced into sex by Ygritte. It is either fuck her or die. Sure, she is not ugly, but there is no consent there. An erect cock isn't consent.

17 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Also, he's playing daddy-daughter games. Errrrrr What the actual fuck! This is beyond gross. His daddy - daughter games include forcing kisses on her mouth and face, sitting her in his lap AKA dick zone, just saying. hey, ladies, we've all been there with a guy pressing his hard on up against us in a bar or the tube etc. It's so errrrr unfuckingwanted and intrusive and yeah assault.  and brushing her breast with his hands. I'm pretty sure my dad was a sociopath. But he never sat me on his lap kissed me on the mouth and touched my tits. I'm pretty certain that shit is badly wrong and he had no moral compass cos, yeah he tried to murder me. Three times!

I never said this was appropriate or pleasant behavior. I said this wasn't as bad as a death threat. If you don't agree there I can't help you.

And the whole point of that was to point out that while Littlefinger is trying to groom Sansa to love him Sandor was there first, in a very real sense. The abuse at Joffrey's court made her look for him as a protector despite the fact that he was also abusive. Just not as bad as the others. It is like the 'good cop, bad cop' thing without it being consciously played. Nobody wants Sansa to feel safe with and trust Sandor but that's how things turn out to be. It wasn't intentional but it is the result of mental and physical abuse. Sandor is a willing participant of the 'Joffrey system'. The fact that he didn't beat her means nothing. What do you think Sandor would have done if Joffrey had forced Sandor to beat Sansa? He would have done it. Just as he would have done nothing to protect her from Joffrey had she ever married him. He wouldn't even have protected her from him if he had wanted to rape her while they were not married. Sandor was Joffrey's sworn shield and later his Kingsguard, and proud of it.

17 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 LF's games are abusive and disgusting. he's a pimp too don't forget so although I agree he loves her in a fucked up, one-sided, unhealthy way his view of women as sexual commodities is well established. You don't have to be mentally healthy to fall in love and even stalkers who rape and murder their victims feel like they love them. This, however, doesn't really equate to anything other than him being an abuser. Who has no respect for women at all. He is by far and away more toxic than Sandor but that is beside the point and here it is again for those at the back who may have missed it.... CONSENT. AUTONOMY. AGENCY.

Nobody ever said Littlefinger's love for Sansa was healthy or normal. But it is still love. And Littlefinger is neither a stalker nor a rapist as far as we know. He is also no pimp. That's the show guy. Littlefinger owns brothels, he does not run them. Just as he owns ships but those not captain them himself.

Whether Littlefinger or Sandor is more toxic for Sansa remains to be seen. What I'd say is that - however the Littlefinger-Sansa thing is going to develop - she is learning things from she is going to profit from. She never learned anything of that sort from Sandor.

I personally think (and fear) that Sansa is going to seduce Littlefinger in the not-so-distant future. She will give what he wants so she can get what she wants in return.

George writes usually follows the plot to the logical conclusion. He is not going to shy back from the precipices.

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 I'm particularly weirded out by the idea that it is better to be sexually assaulted by a good-looking man with nice breath than it is to desire an inappropriate one.  And kissing and touching someone against their will is sexual assault. Consent is such an important word, and for those of you have evidenced how much to have failed to understand it or it's importance there are lots of really good analogies online these days. though with the serious lack of reading comprehension going on in this thread maybe these people need something more literal. 

Also, he's playing daddy-daughter games. Errrrrr What the actual fuck! This is beyond gross. His daddy - daughter games include forcing kisses on her mouth and face, sitting her in his lap AKA dick zone, just saying. hey, ladies, we've all been there with a guy pressing his hard on up against us in a bar or the tube etc. It's so errrrr unfuckingwanted and intrusive and yeah assault.  and brushing her breast with his hands. I'm pretty sure my dad was a sociopath. But he never sat me on his lap kissed me on the mouth and touched my tits. I'm pretty certain that shit is badly wrong and he had no moral compass cos, yeah he tried to murder me. Three times!

Yes, I agree with that. 

[cpg2016]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody ever said Littlefinger's love for Sansa was healthy or normal. But it is still love. And Littlefinger is neither a stalker nor a rapist as far as we know. He is also no pimp. That's the show guy. Littlefinger owns brothels, he does not run them. Just as he owns ships but those not captain them himself.

Well I think there is a certain connotation, especially on this thread, that "love" is a healthy emotional attachment to someone.  It's the colloquial use and your argument is a bit disingenuous.  Yes, there are unhealthy types of love, but we generally have other names for those things, like obsession or fixation.  If you want to interpret love at it's broadest (as you're doing) then it really opens the door to just about any emotion at all.

Second, you are splitting some hairs pretty finely if you are saying that Littlefinger owning a brothel is different than him being a pimp.  He isn't just a landlord; he's making money off the services being provided, so it's pretty hard to argue against him being a pimp (after all, he's the one that "trains" Jeyne Poole... one of the squickiest sex crimes in the books).

And the captain/ship owner thing is an entirely different relationship, and meaningless besides.  Littlefinger is involved in the sex trade; he knowingly invests in and profits off of prostitution.  A ship owner is still a merchant, and a brothel-owner is still involved in the sex trade.

[John Doe]

5 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Couple of things.  I agree there are no winners under patriarchy, including men.  I do feel sympathy for male characters being forced into marriages they are unhappy with.  Sometimes women also utilize the system against other women when they can for selfish purpose.  That It doesn't negate the fact that often the women will get the shorter end of the stick and the system is skewed in favor of men.  It's not equally bad for both men and women.  A man can rape his wife and it's not a crime.  It's his right.  Law and custom is still skewed in favor of male property rights.  If a wife brings wealth and property into a marriage, it belongs to her husband.  Even if she were to physically leave and live a separate life, she must also give up her children in that process.  They're his heirs and would remain in his custody.  That would be a huge deterrent for many in trying to leave a bad marriage.  Men still have the final say in all decisions.  So much of what the septas teach their charges is how to be pleasing and submissive.  There's also the burden of risk women face in pregnancy and childbirth, which again coupled with husbands being allowed to exercise their rights over her body gives her not much say in reproduction unless she secretly takes moontea on the sly.  All a man is really required to do is get at least one male heir from his wife preferably.  After a smooth succession is secured, he doesn't have to have sex with his wife again if he doesn't want to.  There's nothing stopping him from having lovers.  Do women have the right to seek out lovers?  Nope.  Not without risk and consequences to herself.  This is all very normalized and condoned by every institution in Westeros.  Now most men don't go abusing their wives even if it's a loveless marriage.  Most are men are not total shit bags and do try to have a pleasant relationship with their wives, but one can't deny that the system would protect them if they were total shit bags.  Ned is 95% a very good loving husband, but even he exercised his rights as the ultimate authority.  If a woman is being mistreated, she doesn't really have any recourse.  In all your examples, men still have the most amount of choice.  Ned was Lord of Winterfell and chose to marry Cat.  Harold Hardyng is not betrothed yet.  It's made clear the betrothal hinges upon his approval.  SR is the only exception as a minor child.  Even in both those cases, nothing happens until Tyrion dies or the marriage is somehow annulled.  Olenna can scheme and she wields influence, but ultimately who marries Willas is still officially up to Mace or Willas if Mace dies.  

I agree that women generally had it worse because in marriage, men were favored. I'm just saying that a marriage being arranged in itself isn't an issue of gender, even though the consequences of it of course in general are potentially worse for the women.

So I guess we pretty much agree with each other anyway.

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Well I think there is a certain connotation, especially on this thread, that "love" is a healthy emotional attachment to someone.  It's the colloquial use and your argument is a bit disingenuous.  Yes, there are unhealthy types of love, but we generally have other names for those things, like obsession or fixation.  If you want to interpret love at it's broadest (as you're doing) then it really opens the door to just about any emotion at all.

The thing is that we don't really know where this whole thing is going to go. Will Littlefinger ever truly hurt or harm Sansa in any deep/meaningful way? We do not know. I'm not saying it is a good thing what he does to her, I'm just saying it doesn't have to get as bad as a lot of people think it will..

George himself says that he his feelings for Sansa - both the paternal and the romantic/sexual feelings - are genuine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtYhmD2TZs0

We have to wait and see what part of him will win in the end. I'd not be surprised if the paternal aspect won and he ended up sacrificing himself for her. That's what fathers do at times, too. It is perhaps more likely that the romantic/sexual things wins, especially if Sansa ended up using that whole thing to get what she wants.

11 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Second, you are splitting some hairs pretty finely if you are saying that Littlefinger owning a brothel is different than him being a pimp.  He isn't just a landlord; he's making money off the services being provided, so it's pretty hard to argue against him being a pimp (after all, he's the one that "trains" Jeyne Poole... one of the squickiest sex crimes in the books).

Details do matter. Pimps are working in brothels/directly with prostitutes and are actually hurting and beating the women there. The implication we get when we call Littlefinger a pimp is that he does this kind of thing, too. And that isn't the case. People he works with do that, but that's another thing entirely. And I daresay the Jeyne Poole thing is pretty nothing compared to the really ugly sex crimes in this story - or have you forgotten the slaves in Lys, Volantis and Slaver's Bay? How they are treated and trained? Not to mention the people who actually raping and murdering women in the series. Jeyne certainly suffered very bad things at the hands of the people Littlefinger handed her to, but we don't know how bad it was. She survived, and everything indicates that what Ramsay forced her to do is much worse.

11 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

And the captain/ship owner thing is an entirely different relationship, and meaningless besides.  Littlefinger is involved in the sex trade; he knowingly invests in and profits off of prostitution.  A ship owner is still a merchant, and a brothel-owner is still involved in the sex trade.

That still doesn't make him a pimp. Just as the average lord or king employing a torturer or executioner isn't a torturer or executioner himself. Littlefinger certainly profits from the sex trade - but is this a crime or even morally problematic in this world? Not according to His Grace King Robert. The Crown (and the state in all the countries where prostitution is legal) also profits from prostitution. Does this make the heads of those states or the tax collectors, etc. pimps?

The author seems to defend and normalize prostitution with the whole Chataya thing, doesn't he?

24 minutes ago, John Doe said:

I agree that women generally had it worse because in marriage, men were favored. I'm just saying that a marriage being arranged in itself isn't an issue of gender, even though the consequences of it of course in general are potentially worse for the women.

So I guess we pretty much agree with each other anyway.

They are worse in all societies where men enjoy much larger freedoms than women. Usually, arranged marriages are not a cage for a man. Men can have lovers, women don't. Because women actually are the goods men buy and sell via a marriages. And if you don't want a particular bride it is much, much easier for a man to reject her, or end the whole thing one way or another. Women don't have those choices.

In Westeros we have only guys rejecting the marriages other men made for them. At least no woman springs to mind right now. Even Rhaenyra married Laenor in the end.

[cpg2016]

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The thing is that we don't really know where this whole thing is going to go. Will Littlefinger ever truly hurt or harm Sansa in any deep/meaningful way? We do not know. I'm not saying it is a good thing what he does to her, I'm just saying it doesn't have to get as bad as a lot of people think it will..

He already has.  He kept Sansa trapped in Kings Landing when she could have married Willas Tyrell and basically lived out her fantasy life.

And it's... already pretty bad.  Has he gone full Ramsay Bolton and made her have sex with a dog?  No.  But he's clearly emotionally manipulating and abusing her, and while his constant demands for "kisses" are relatively innocent (relatively) he's still attempting to force himself on someone who he has physical control over.

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd not be surprised if the paternal aspect won and he ended up sacrificing himself for her. That's what fathers do at times, too

I think the message being pretty clearly telegraphed here is that Petry has never gotten over his inability to be with his boyhood crush Catelyn, has always resented his low social standing (for a noble) that prevented it from happening, and has been scheming ever since to get revenge on the people he think wronged him (Starks) and is now transferring that obsession with Catelyn to her physically-similar daughter.  He's had a LOT of opportunities to sacrifice his own desires for her greater good, and consistently hasn't.

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Details do matter. Pimps are working in brothels/directly with prostitutes and are actually hurting and beating the women there.

This is not so.  A pimp is someone who controls prostitutes and arranges clients for them, and takes a cut of their earnings in return.  Not every pimp needs to physically abuse his charges to be a true pimp.  That's it.  And Littlefinger is exactly that.

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

People he works with do that

See, the problem here is that this isn't, and has never, been a defense against a crime or accusation.  If I hire you to kill someone, I'm not absolved of responsibility of being a murderer.  And moreover, Petyr isn't an innocent landlord; as I said above, he owns brothels, not buildings in which brothels are located.

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And I daresay the Jeyne Poole thing is pretty nothing compared to the really ugly sex crimes in this story - or have you forgotten the slaves in Lys, Volantis and Slaver's Bay? How they are treated and trained? Not to mention the people who actually raping and murdering women in the series

I'm not saying there aren't worse predators, but we aren't given the same insight into those folks.  That the Yuankai'i are more vile than Littlefinger doesn't mean he isn't a pimp.

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Littlefinger certainly profits from the sex trade - but is this a crime or even morally problematic in this world? Not according to His Grace King Robert. The Crown (and the state in all the countries where prostitution is legal) also profits from prostitution. Does this make the heads of those states or the tax collectors, etc. pimps?

Again, I think this is a disingenuous argument.  Littlefinger self-identifies as a brothel owner, as someone who can order the women therein to do things.  Saying that anyone who touches a dollar that has passed through a brothel is somehow involved in the sex trade is absurdly reductionist.  Littlefinger owns brothels and employs prostitutes.  That makes him a pimp.  He is directly involved.

And by the way, I'm not arguing that it's a moral or ethical problem.  I have nothing against prostitution in general, either in fiction or real life.  I'm just saying I think your making too fine a distinction when you argue that Littlefinger isn't a pimp.  He is involved in the organizational/logistical side of the operations, and he certainly profits from their work.  If he's in a position to have Jeyne Poole "trained" as a sex slave, then he's intimately involved enough to be a pimp.  Far more so than the definition of "pimp" warrants.

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That still doesn't make him a pimp. Just as the average lord or king employing a torturer or executioner isn't a torturer or executioner himself.

Right, but the definition of a pimp and an executioner are different.  Joffrey may no have "executed" Ned Stark, but he's certainly responsible for his execution.  Littlefinger may not be in the room exhorting each and every john to pay him, but he's certainly organizing the operation.  Similarly, Chataya has an establishment, just like Littlefinger - they're both pimps.  Your definition of pimp is wayyyyy too narrow.  A pimp can be the same as a mob boss, not just an enforcer breaking knees for payment.

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The author seems to defend and normalize prostitution with the whole Chataya thing, doesn't he?

I think Martin is of the opinion that prostitution is extant and un-eradicable.  Certainly, the prostitutes who are (relatively) willing participants in the sex trade are portrayed more positively than those who aren't; the sex slaves of Yunkai, Jeyne Poole, etc.  I think the one slip in relatively sympathetic characterization is Shae, who is portrayed as a betrayer and much more mercenary in who she sells herself to, which isn't very fair.