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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That still doesn't make him a pimp

I understand that you are in a dialogue with another poster. I merely wanted to add my penny's worth.

LF reaps the monetary rewards from his brothels. The nice polite name is the business owner. The business owner knows what transpires in his brothels. In my opinion LF is indeed a pimp. He collect's income from males and females who sell their bodies for sexual activities.

The cliche that prostitution is oldest profession says something about humanity.

Me, personally, I think LF will not let Sansa go until the price is right. He is lying to her, grooming her and hopefully the 13 year old girl will out smart him.

As an aside, nothing to do with you LV, Sophie Turner is not Sansa Stark Lannister.

Edit:  So that I don't appear sexist I would add that women otherwise named madams, are also pimps.

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1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I understand that you are in a dialogue with another poster. I merely wanted to add my penny's worth.

LF reaps the monetary rewards from his brothels. The nice polite name is the business owner. The business owner knows what transpires in his brothels. In my opinion LF is indeed a pimp. He collect's income from males and females who sell their bodies for sexual activities.

See above. Do we actually know Littlefinger employs male prostitutes? The show might have the better of you there.

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Me, personally, I think LF will not let Sansa go until the price is right. He is lying to her, grooming her and hopefully the 13 year old girl will out smart him.

If she does then many people might not want to read it. The only way I see Sansa can manipulate and eventually betray Littlefinger is to give him what he wants. He has to get up caught in his own web of fantasies and lies. Sansa has already begun helping him with that, she tells him what he wants to hear, not the truth. But Littlefinger is one of the smartest and most competent players in the series. Sansa cannot hope to outsmart him or betray him in any direct way. He'll expect that.

If she actually wiggles her way into his heart, if he lets his guard down, if he actually thinks she loves him as much as he loves her then he'll be vulnerable in the extreme. But to do that she would have to become his mistress or wife. And it would have to go on for quite some time. He is not going to let his guard down just because they have had sex once.

But then - what motive would Sansa have right now to betray him? Pretty much none. She doesn't know what he did and aside from those kisses he leaves he be. It is not that bad compared to what she had to suffer in KL. And it is so much more interesting for the plot to have Sansa around Littlefinger and perhaps other important people than to have her hook with nice but not so relevant guys.

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36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

See above. Do we actually know Littlefinger employs male prostitutes? The show might have the better of you there.

In other words you want me to provide a text quote ---- which I canna do. Dunna think that I mistake book for show. I do make many mistakes trying to remember the boat load of info contained in five sprawling books.

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If she does then many people might not want to read it. The only way I see Sansa can manipulate and eventually betray Littlefinger is to give him what he wants. He has to get up caught in his own web of fantasies and lies. Sansa has already begun helping him with that, she tells him what he wants to hear, not the truth. But Littlefinger is one of the smartest and most competent players in the series. Sansa cannot hope to outsmart him or betray him in any direct way. He'll expect that.

I am hopeful that that the 13 year old Sansa will out smart LF. Truth be known, I don’t foresee it happening.

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If she actually wiggles her way into his heart, if he lets his guard down, if he actually thinks she loves him as much as he loves her then he'll be vulnerable in the extreme. But to do that she would have to become his mistress or wife. And it would have to go on for quite some time. He is not going to let his guard down just because they have had sex once.

Dammit dude or dudette you have completely ignored my wise sage words in the prior post. I was being all nice and Kumbaya talking about pimps and madams.

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But then - what motive would Sansa have right now to betray him? Pretty much none. She doesn't know what he did and aside from those kisses he leaves he be. It is not that bad compared to what she had to suffer in KL. And it is so much more interesting for the plot to have Sansa around Littlefinger and perhaps other important people than to have her hook with nice but not so relevant guys.

Ohhhh, lol, you gonna put me on the spot, and I’m gonna tell ya I ain’t gonna go down that road. No, no, no, LV, you can talk circles around me.

I was yapping about LF being a pimp. In my most humble opinion he is. Call him a businessman or whatever you like; the man is in the flesh trade that preys upon the vulnerable.

:wub:

I probably have some mistakes floating around in here. Tough. Tired. Night.

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23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You should read up what a psychopath actually is. They still have feelings, you know. They are just reduced feelings. They can like and miss their friends and family, etc. They are just more detached from their own emotions than 'normal people'.

You react as if I'm saying Arya is a psychopath is an insult. It is not. You don't have to defend her. It is clinical term that is not inappropriate to describe her. Especially in light of the traumas she went through. Those are the kind of things that shape psychopaths in real life, too. Both the murderous and the functional psychopaths.

Arya can't be a psychopath because she cares about her relatves and friends all the time and with great intensity. I don't want to derail the thread with that anymore.

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37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Ygritte's understanding of things is irrelevant. If I happen to end up in some foreign culture doing something that is misinterpreted as me declaring I want to be with a woman (stealing isn't marriage among the wildlings) then this is the problem of the people misinterpreting me, not mine.

Just as it is my problem as a man when I 'interpret' 'No!' to mean 'Yes, oh yes, I want to be roughly taken by you'.

Ygritte most definitely blackmailed/coerced/forced Jon into having sex with her. Not at point blank, of course, but in a subtle way. She first lied to Mance, causing Jon to feel indebted to him for saving his life. And then she made it clear that he had to make the lie a reality. If that is not basically rape/forced sex in exchange for your life I don't know what is. And Jon is also pretty much groomed in that direction by her. She acts completely selfish there, having the hots for Jon from the start and doing everything in her power - even acting against the interests of her own people in the process of it, knowing fully well that Jon isn't really all that loyal to them - to ensure that he falls for her and does what she wants him to do.

If we are talking about consent then Jon had basically no freedom of consent whatsoever unless you want to say a person who has a choice between having sex with another person and certain death has a choice. If that was a choice then any woman that is about to be raped or beaten by her husband/boyfriend has a choice, too. But we are thankfully beyond that line of thinking, no?

I've never thought about it this way but if you think about it - how much alike are Littlefinger and Ygritte there? Littlefinger has yet to force himself on Sansa, of course, but wasn't Ygritte not also completely in control of the situation in Jon's case? Didn't she not also want to get in his pants and didn't she not also do everything she could to get there? How do you interpret her harassing Jon each night when they are making camp? Jon made it very clear he did not want to be that close to her. He wanted to sleep alone. It is his decision whether he wants to freeze at night or not, is it? What is her reason for saving Jon's life? The fact that she wants (to have sex with) him. She didn't do that out of the goodness of her heart. She had an agenda. Just as Littlefinger does when he saves Sansa from the Lannisters and puts her under his power.

This is how it goes in the book:

Think about it and ask yourself whether it would be rape or coercion if you or I played that trick with a woman. I think we both know that this would be considered rape, and rightfully so.

Vice versa, put yourself in Jon's shoes and imagine he was not, eventually, sort of attracted to her. Imagine he was repulsed and disgusted by her. He would have been forced to go along with it anyway because he really had no other choice.

In that sense, Jon and Dany are truly the two sides of the same coin. Both got raped by people they (eventually) fell in love with.

Does Ygritte manipulate Jon?  Certainly.  Does Ygritte say to Jon, or imply to Jon, that she'll have him killed if he doesn't sleep with her?  No.   Does Ygritte frame Jon for a crime, as LF did with Sansa, so that he has no option but to place himself in her power?  No.  Does Jon feel violated, as a result of sex with Ygritte?  No.  Does Jon recall Ygritte with affection, and her death with regret?  Yes.  If Jon is happy with what Ygritte did, and has pleasant memories about their relationship, why should the reader feel dismayed on his behalf?

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@The Fattest Leech brought up Renly and Loras, which is a great one.  So much of their relationship is implied and kind of a worst kept secret.  Loras's grief is so palpable.  I know Loras was very much in love with Renly, but did Renly feel as strongly for Loras?  Renly just strikes me as kinda shallow, but Loras could see another side to him.  Or is it possible Loras was as taken with Renly's superficial charm as Brienne was?  I love that triangle as a twist on the knight and lady-love trope.  

(I'm moving this forward cause I just can't with that mess today)

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People change after creating a list of people they intent to kill.

People change after they are stabbed by their sworn brothers.

People change after they meet the main players of game.

People change after they have connection to all history network.

People change after they visit island engaged in cannibalism.

People change after their skins are slayed.

But all these people are Starks. Gendry is true Baratheon and his character would not change as Robert's, Stannis' and Renly's never did. But I know nothing about his sexual desires so I am not sure about it.

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1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

@The Fattest Leech brought up Renly and Loras, which is a great one.  So much of their relationship is implied and kind of a worst kept secret.  Loras's grief is so palpable.  I know Loras was very much in love with Renly, but did Renly feel as strongly for Loras?  Renly just strikes me as kinda shallow, but Loras could see another side to him.  Or is it possible Loras was as taken with Renly's superficial charm as Brienne was?  I love that triangle as a twist on the knight and lady-love trope.  

(I'm moving this forward cause I just can't with that mess today)

It is interesting that you mentioned the love triangle. George uses that quite a bit in his work, and not always as a kinky threeway thing. George also has male to male attraction in his past stories, as @The Weirwoods Eyes may have come across by now. 

If we go by what George tends to do, I'd say the love triangle was between Brienne, Renly and Loras, and Brienne was the one "left out", which means Renly and Loras would have the actual, mutual attraction. 

But in the end it actually works for Brienne, as Renly was her first crush (everyone has one), and that paves the way for Brienne and Jaime. The "sword play" between Jaime and Brienne is also very charming. Even when they were fighting in the river and Vargo discovers them and Jaime jests that Brienne is his wife. 

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3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It is interesting that you mentioned the love triangle. George uses that quite a bit in his work, and not always as a kinky threeway thing. George also has male to male attraction in his past stories, as @The Weirwoods Eyes may have come across by now. 

If we go by what George tends to do, I'd say the love triangle was between Brienne, Renly and Loras, and Brienne was the one "left out", which means Renly and Loras would have the actual, mutual attraction. 

But in the end it actually works for Brienne, as Renly was her first crush (everyone has one), and that paves the way for Brienne and Jaime. The "sword play" between Jaime and Brienne is also very charming. Even when they were fighting in the river and Vargo discovers them and Jaime jests that Brienne is his wife. 

The triangle gets even more triangle-y when you consider Sansa was all heart-eyes for Loras.  Both she and Brienne have that innocent naivete and a cluelessness about their respective crushes.  They're not only gay, nut a couple.  Both are over the moon when they get a token from their crushes: the rose and the kingsguard cloak, not realizing they don't mean anything really from the giver.  It's classic "love from afar" with gender roles reversed.  On the other hand, Renly and Loras are kinda forced into playing into these hetero-normative performances.  Portraying gay couples can have pitfalls of harmful tropes.  I think Loras and Renly avoid a lot of them, but that's coming from a hetero female. I could be wrong.  Renly's death had nothing to do with his sexuality, but it's all too common to portray gay characters as coming to tragic end.  I dohope in the future George includes a homosexual pairing  actually  their dream of spring

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What I really like about the books are the many different examples of love. You have indeed romantic love, but there is also friendship, loyalty, brotherhood, ... 

I am rooting for a Gendry&Arya, Sansa&Sandor, Val&Jon and Jaime&Brienne as romantic relationships. But even without any romance Gendry&Arya, Sansa&Sandor and Jaime&Brienne are still one of the most interesting relationships in the books. They have just built up very good

Other relationships I like are: 

  • Jeyne and Robb: sweet but not that passionate; "Jeyne makes him smile";  "You had no right. Robb had it made for me. I loved him."  
  • Ned and Cat: also sweet but also sometimes 'passionate', or at least Cat's thoughts; "He yearned for the comfort of Catelyn's arms"; "The greatsword Ice was across his lap (...) watching the sword as he stroked it (...) He slid Ice back into its sheath)
  • Arya and Jon: brother-sister bound are the best; "Needle was Jon Snow's smile"; "And Arya … he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful"
  • Robb and Theon: very tragic friendship: "He's been a hostage half his life."; And Robb. Robb who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy's loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him.
  • Meera and Bran: "my prince" "my lady" :wub:
  • Robb and Bran: brothers "And afterward, we'll ride north to see the Wall. We won't even tell Jon we're coming, we'll just be there one day, you and me. It will be an adventure."; "He wished Robb were with them now"
  • Ned and Cat and their kids: parents and their children
  • Tyrion and Jaime
  • And many more...

But the relationship I always will find the most interesting is Eddard and Robert. It is probably the tragic and completely doomed relationships are always the ones I think are the most interesting. It is really sad to see how Ned's image of Robert as his knightly dragon-slayer changes in Robert being the evil dragon. But on the other hand it is beautiful that even after Ned starts to fear Robert is another Aerys, he still loves his friend unconditionally. Beautiful but really sad 

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2 hours ago, Tijgy said:

What I really like about the books are the many different examples of love. You have indeed romantic love, but there is also friendship, loyalty, brotherhood, ... 

I am rooting for a Gendry&Arya, Sansa&Sandor, Val&Jon and Jaime&Brienne as romantic relationships. But even without any romance Gendry&Arya, Sansa&Sandor and Jaime&Brienne are still one of the most interesting relationships in the books. They have just built up very good

Other relationships I like are: 

  • Jeyne and Robb: sweet but not that passionate; "Jeyne makes him smile";  "You had no right. Robb had it made for me. I loved him."  
  • Ned and Cat: also sweet but also sometimes 'passionate', or at least Cat's thoughts; "He yearned for the comfort of Catelyn's arms"; "The greatsword Ice was across his lap (...) watching the sword as he stroked it (...) He slid Ice back into its sheath)
  • Arya and Jon: brother-sister bound are the best; "Needle was Jon Snow's smile"; "And Arya … he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful"
  • Robb and Theon: very tragic friendship: "He's been a hostage half his life."; And Robb. Robb who had been more a brother to Theon than any son born of Balon Greyjoy's loins. Murdered at the Red Wedding, butchered by the Freys. I should have been with him. Where was I? I should have died with him.
  • Meera and Bran: "my prince" "my lady" :wub:
  • Robb and Bran: brothers "And afterward, we'll ride north to see the Wall. We won't even tell Jon we're coming, we'll just be there one day, you and me. It will be an adventure."; "He wished Robb were with them now"
  • Ned and Cat and their kids: parents and their children
  • Tyrion and Jaime
  • And many more...

But the relationship I always will find the most interesting is Eddard and Robert. It is probably the tragic and completely doomed relationships are always the ones I think are the most interesting. It is really sad to see how Ned's image of Robert as his knightly dragon-slayer changes in Robert being the evil dragon. But on the other hand it is beautiful that even after Ned starts to fear Robert is another Aerys, he still loves his friend unconditionally. Beautiful but really sad 

Great post, Tijgy!  I agree about Ned and Robert.  When Lyanna said to her brother 'love is sweet, dear Ned, but it can't change a man's nature,' she was referring to Ned's unconditional love for Robert, understanding in the same breath that her brother in his blind devotion would not get the subtlety of her allusion.  I also think Ned's decision not to disclose his suspicions about the children's paternity to his friend on his deathbed was not done maliciously but with the pure intention of sparing his dear friend psychic pain.

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28 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I agree about Ned and Robert.  When Lyanna said to her brother 'love is sweet, dear Ned, but it can't change a man's nature,' she was referring to Ned's unconditional love for Robert, understanding in the same breath that her brother in his blind devotion would not get the subtlety of her allusion.  I also think Ned's decision not to disclose his suspicions about the children's paternity to his friend on his deathbed was not done maliciously but with the pure intention of sparing his dear friend psychic pain.

Yes, great post @Tijgy.   Agree with all of this.  Ned's unconditional love really held on for a long time.  Even during the rebellion when Ned learned of the deaths of Elia's children and he and Robert had a falling out over it.  They came back together again over Lyanna's death.  Then the child killing theme rears its head again when they are debating sending assassins after Danaerys.  How Ned's heart must have sank though when he pleaded with Robert to spare Lady for the love he bore Lyanna and his love for him.  And Robert just can't be bothered because he doesn't want to deal with an argument with Cersei.  Goes to show just how deep Robert's love is for anyone.  The warning signs about his friend's true character were there for years and Ned just didn't see them.  I do think Ned was first legitimately concerned that Robert would kill Cersei's children because Robert did give him cause to believe that.  The deathbed scene is touching because even after all that Ned felt moved to spare Robert pain.  It's not quite a type of unrequited love, because Robert did claim to love Ned.  It was more of a case of Ned loving someone too much who didn't really deserve it.  Not because he was deceptive, but Robert just "loved" others when it was easy and didn't cost him anything.     

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Agreed That was a great post @Tijgy And yes Ned's blindness over Robert's nature is tragic. And I agree even at the end he just wanted to spare the man pain over Cersei's betrayal. But Robert was a first class jerk really, and his ignoring Ned's plea over Lady is awful. The man just didn't care enough, and it is reflected in his treatment of women too. Ned can see what he does to them but doesn't see that Roberts friendship is as shallow as his affection for all his women. 

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On 2017-7-30 at 10:23 AM, Lord Varys said:

That is the right of a conqueror.

...unless you are a Baratheon conquering a Targaryn. That is when the rules change, then the conquerer has no rights whatsoever, and is deemed an usurping criminal. :rolleyes:

The bias, contradictions, and hypocrisy in your arguments are never ending.

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Thanks @ravenous reader, @Blue-Eyed Wolf and @The Weirwoods Eyes

Ned was certainly lying to Robert because he loved him and not out of anything malicious. 

Personally, I also think Robert didn't deserve Ned but I personally also think Ned was the one Robert (truly) did love the most. His love for Ned couldn't just change the fact he takes always the easy way when he is being comforted emotionally. 

GRRM set their dynamic really beautiful up. While the readers can see that Robert isn't the knight in shining armor, we do see Ned actually believing that Robert is:  "he Lord of Storm's End had been clean-shaven, clear-eyed, and muscled like a maiden's fantasy. Six and a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men, and when he donned his armor and the great antlered helmet of his House, he became a veritable giant. He'd had a giant's strength too, his weapon of choice a spiked iron warhammer that Ned could scarcely lift. In those days, the smell of leather and blood had clung to him like perfume."

Even more, he believes Robert is his knight in shining armor, Robert is going to save him for the second time from the evil dragons (first the Targaryens and then the Lannisters): "This was the boy he had grown up with, he thought; this was the Robert Baratheon he'd known and loved. If he could prove that the Lannisters were behind the attack on Bran, prove that they had murdered Jon Arryn, this man would listen. Then Cersei would fall, and the Kingslayer with her, and if Lord Tywin dared to rouse the west, Robert would smash him as he had smashed Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident. He could see it all so clearly.

But through AGOT we see his image cracking piece-by-piece until Robert, his dragonslayer, turned into the dragon himself: "Ned could not let that happen again. The realm could not withstand a second mad king, another dance of blood and vengeance. He must find some way to save the children."

A lot of fans keep saying how it is his honor that killed Ned. Personally I don't think so (there are many factors). One of the main reasons he died is the fact he told Cersei to run. Ned believing Robert would hurt children and was another monster lead him to warn Cersei and his own death. Ned was killed by his lack of faith in his friend, a lack of faith which Robert created himself by his own (true) personality and actions.

 

 

 

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Very insightful @Tijgy Again I like what you have to say on this matter.  It frustrates me how people like to absolve Ned of his own mistakes. everything you have pointed out here is true.  The love between these two men is love, we do love our friends. Especially those we share childhood memories with or whom we have gone through hard times together with. The bond of shared experience is very strong. Ned is blinded by his memories of Robert as he saw him during their youth and it takes a long time for him to see the truth. Even at the end though his love for Robert wins out over common sense and he lies to him on his death bed to spare him his pride and the pain of discovering the children he believes he is leaving as his legacy are not his own.   The truth would have hurt Robert, but it also would have given Ned a signed document disinheriting Joffrey and his siblings. Which is probably not enough alone to save him, but it might have given him a better chance as it would open up more options for him in his course of action.  Once again love is the death of duty. As Ned's duty was, to tell the truth. For the realm and to Robert but love stopped him. 

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It struck me yesterday, as I received my copy of dying of the Light in the post; as I said I am reading all GRRM's back catalogue at the moment. Anyone who thinks he is not (Amongst a whole heap of other genre's) a romance writer is living in cloud cuckoo land. I read the back cover of it when it arrived. And it reads like a straight up romance story. Take away the Sci-Fi elements and I could have had in my hand any number of books of the Romance genre! Let me surmise. 

Our protagonist has been summoned to return to his former home and a woman h loves but thinks is lost to him. This is a pretty classic set up for a start. But the synopsis goes on to tell us his home and the woman he once loved have both changed. Again I could be telling you about a Mills & Boon here.  Oh, and what do we learn next, she's now involved with another man, it says bound which gives the impression of a less than consensual arrangement and he is a brute. Well again here we have a very typical romance trope. He then will have to protect his former love from her oafish partner. The classic situation would usually be that she has become engaged to this man for reasons her family have dictated. Often the family have become impoverished and are making the marriage for financial reasons. I'll have to wait to find out why she's bound to this man though as I've not quite finished Dream Songs Vol 1. The last paragraph of the synopsis promises us crossed purposes, secrets and lies and a Triangle of relationships where each person's ultimate fate lies in a different direction, escape vengeance and death. Though this seems to be assuring the reader this won't get too predictable It doesn't actually rule out the classic romance set up of him finding he still has feelings for the woman and ultimately helping her escape the unwanted marriage and her declaring passionate feelings for him and them ending up in bed and escaping the situation together. However, I'm sure GRRM will pull it off in a less expected manner and that there will be twists and turns to keep me turning the page all the way through. 

now, please don't be a prat and spoil the story for me by telling me how wrong my summarisation of the back sleeve synopsis is.  I've detailed it here for the purposes of illustrating how GRRM is a fan of romance. Because so many seem to think he's not writing any love stories. I once read something of his where he defends Romance as a Genre but alas have never recalled where I read it. Despite wracking my brains on the matter. I seem to think it had something to do with Dianna Gabaldon and their friendship and her being so often dismissed as a Romance writer when in fact the Outlander series is so much more and crosses several genres's in fiction, much like he likes to do. But that one ought not to dismiss romance writing anyway. 

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On 7/30/2017 at 7:27 AM, teej6 said:

I fully agree with the above. I couldn't have said it better. @Lord Varys is a known Stark hater and Dany fan who's interpretation of the texts are skewed in one direction. He argues that Arya had no right to kill Raff and Chiswyck (two despicable men), but of course if you ask him who gave Dany the right to kill hundreds of people to implement her views of right and wrong, he'd justify it through a biased, lengthy and convoluted post. I fail to see how Dany defining what is right/wrong en masse for entire populations any different than Arya doing it on a smaller scale. If you think one is wrong you can't justify the other. Dany dispenses justice arbitrarily as queen of Meereen. But don't expect LV to diss his silver haired tyranical princess. 

And as you said, Arya is probably one of the most empathetic characters in the books. Her only questionable kill so far (which wasn't motivated by revenge or survival) has been Dareon. Oddly everyone goes on about how she killed Dareon but no one bothers to state how she saved Sam from Terro and Orbello or how she let Sam have the clams for free. People easily forget the kindness and humanity she shows but harp on her kills. Yes, Arya has done some disturbing things and her obsession with death is troubling but she's a traumatized child who's trying to adapt and survive in a brutal world the only way she knows how. I don't believe GRRM will keep her with the Faceless Men much longer. She'll regain her Stark identity and her pack and will eventually come to terms with her brutal past.

I have to strongly disagree here.  

Arya is an awesome character and hey yes wants to avenge her family!

Yet, as opposed  to what the Imp or Littlefinger did, she takes the biscuit!!!  Whereas the former would only kill if necessary, Arya enjoys it (even when necessary to kill but not necessary to enjoy).  Harrenhall, the guard, in KL, the same; she knows these people are servants, no more, she enjoys anyhow...

Tyrion set Blackwater on fire but in the books tried to build it up again, felt guilty lol.  She is yet to feel guilty about a thing!!! Not even LF, who just wants power at any cost lol, feels so good about killing...

 

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