Rickard of House Rakkoon

Where is the love?

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Sorry if someone mentioned this, but Jorah bought & sold everything he could for his second wife Lynesse. I guess you could call it love.

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Dont get me wrong by the following, I love this series and hope for 40 more years of planetos stories. With that said, i ask the following.

Throughout the series we see a wide range of emotions, anger, sadness, lust, rage, relief, envy, hate, revoltion, ect. What we dont really see is real love. Yes, there are some that love eachother dutifully or out of lust, ned/cat and jamie/cersei, jon/ygrette, but the only real love we ever really know about (vaguely) is Tyrion and his 1st wife, and all know how that went. Then Dany/kahl Drogo, but that was the raping of a 13-14 year old girl by a grown man til she got Stockholm syndrome and "loved" him back... Maybe jorah loves dany, but thats unrequited, as is the littlefinger sansa ordeal. No matter which way it turns, grrm always makes love end in tragedy and death. Has there ever been more then just a blink of joy before a warhammer smashes it?  Question i have is why cant there be at least one shred of happiness/real love in planetos? Does it all have to end in death, rape, plotting and war?  Unless i missed something... Sam and Gilly, maybe thats the one shred.

There is the love that the north has for the Starks ,and the love of Davos has for Marya .

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True 'love' I suppose is hard to find. We get to see things from the characters' points of view, and so find out how they really feel. If we didn't, a lot of relationships like Dany and Drogo might appear to be love from the outside.

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14 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

There is the love that the north has for the Starks ,and the love of Davos has for Marya .

Davos probably does love Marya, but that relationship is slightly complicated by the fact that Davos has admitted to 'knowing other women'.

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4 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I have to strongly disagree here.  

Arya is an awesome character and hey yes wants to avenge her family!

Yet, as opposed  to what the Imp or Littlefinger did, she takes the biscuit!!!  Whereas the former would only kill if necessary, Arya enjoys it (even when necessary to kill but not necessary to enjoy).  Harrenhall, the guard, in KL, the same; she knows these people are servants, no more, she enjoys anyhow...

Tyrion set Blackwater on fire but in the books tried to build it up again, felt guilty lol.  She is yet to feel guilty about a thing!!! Not even LF, who just wants power at any cost lol, feels so good about killing...

 

In the books, there's no indication that Arya enjoyed killing either the stable boy in KL (btw that's her only kill in KL) or the guard at Harrenhal. The killing of the stable boy was more a reaction to him threatening to take her to Cersei. She did it instinctively to survive. And fear is what she felt when she killed the stable boy and she got no enjoyment or pleasure out of it. In fact, we know she's troubled by it as she thinks that her family would not want her if they knew she killed the stable boy. Arya killed the guard at Harrenhal again our of necessity, she did it to escape. In the books, there is no indication or description that Arya enjoyed this kill either. She did it matter of factly. If at all it comes across as her being indifferent, which in a way is troubling too. Arya kills Dareon off-page so we don't know what she felt when she killed him. She's angry with him at the brothel we know that from "It made her angry to see Dareon sitting there so brazen, making eyes at Lanna..." "He is fair of face and foul of heart, thought Arya...

When she is asked to kill the insurance man in ADWD, she tries to justify the kill in her mind, indicating that she still has a conscience. She first notes that he is old, well past fifty and has lived too long, then she follows him and studies him and decides that he is an evil man. She even says this to the kindly man who tells her it is not for her to judge him.

Initially, in the books, Arya was troubled by her killings and was concerned that her mother and brother  wouldn't accept her if they knew what she had done but once she starts getting used to it and gets desensitized by all the death and killings around her, she begins killing without much feeling, which as I said above is disturbing. But nowhere in the books does it describe her standing around enjoying her work. Yet, as we see in the case of the insurance agent, she still seeks out a reason to kill and she's not so far gone as to be a cold-blooded assassin. The people on her list are there because she has justified their killings in her mind due to their acts against her person or her family or due to them being evil in general. 

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

True 'love' I suppose is hard to find. We get to see things from the characters' points of view, and so find out how they really feel. If we didn't, a lot of relationships like Dany and Drogo might appear to be love from the outside.

If you are at sea most of the time and have urges... well... but still love your wife, not right, don't get me wrong but I think George tries to depict life as it is, more than as "it should be."  I still think Davos loves Maria.  I would rather forgive a husband who thinks of me at sea, even if in the odd ocassion (away from me and the children for a year or more at the time) thinks of me but fucks a whore for relief and does something illegal to bring money home lol

I had one, in real life (husband), who only cared for himself and his parents at my expense lol when my mother died, they (him and his parents) borrowed £20,000 from me and were in no hurry to start paying back; not saying two wrongs make a right, but when I compare Davos and Maria with him lol  When I started asking for the money back, he put it all on me, saying I had anger and behavioral issues lol and that it was humiliating for his parents for me to ask for the money back!!!  Needless to say we are divorced lol  Should not bring my real life into it but sometimes I get a bit annoyed, I guess, when (what to me) is trivial or almost is in a marriage gets to be a maker or breaker as it were... but hey, not saying I approve or disapprove, merely that I understand... and that I much rather have Davos for a husband lol

 

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, teej6 said:

In the books, there's no indication that Arya enjoyed killing either the stable boy in KL (btw that's her only kill in KL) or the guard at Harrenhal. The killing of the stable boy was more a reaction to him threatening to take her to Cersei. She did it instinctively to survive. And fear is what she felt when she killed the stable boy and she got no enjoyment or pleasure out of it. In fact, we know she's troubled by it as she thinks that her family would not want her if they knew she killed the stable boy. Arya killed the guard at Harrenhal again our of necessity, she did it to escape. In the books, there is no indication or description that Arya enjoyed this kill either. She did it matter of factly. If at all it comes across as her being indifferent, which in a way is troubling too. Arya kills Dareon off-page so we don't know what she felt when she killed him. She's angry with him at the brothel we know that from "It made her angry to see Dareon sitting there so brazen, making eyes at Lanna..." "He is fair of face and foul of heart, thought Arya...

When she is asked to kill the insurance man in ADWD, she tries to justify the kill in her mind, indicating that she still has a conscience. She first notes that he is old, well past fifty and has lived too long, then she follows him and studies him and decides that he is an evil man. She even says this to the kindly man who tells her it is not for her to judge him.

Initially, in the books, Arya was troubled by her killings and was concerned that her mother and brother  wouldn't accept her if they knew what she had done but once she starts getting used to it and gets desensitized by all the death and killings around her, she begins killing without much feeling, which as I said above is disturbing. But nowhere in the books does it describe her standing around enjoying her work. Yet, as we see in the case of the insurance agent, she still seeks out a reason to kill and she's not so far gone as to be a cold-blooded assassin. The people on her list are there because she has justified their killings in her mind due to their acts against her person or her family or due to them being evil in general. 

Okay, maybe I am interpreting lack of regret as enjoyment, and granted that would be wrong.

I even understand her actions re the Freys given the Red Wedding etc.  However, with perhaps the exception of Ramsay, Joffrey and the Mountain (and Cercei out of paranoia), most characters kill out of perceived necessity.  Arya is an avenger but also a vigilante.

She had no real issue with Daeron, other than mayhaps yes he is a member of the NW and should not go breaking his vows, and hey if I were Lana the prostitute and she starts murdering my customers I may take issue with her lol  Arya is a great character in many respects but does not respect the laws or man or gods, only her own! and has declared herself "Justicier of the Galaxy" or something...  She doesn't just kill those who have wronged her but anyone she thinks is "in the wrong" according to her specific code of conduct...

Don't get me wrong, as I said before, I believe she is on 3 arc development in this story but sometimes I cringe when any other character can put a small foot wrong (even if in deep despair) and everyone seems to think that Arya is totally entitled to "dish out" justice as she sees fit lol

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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1 hour ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Okay, maybe I am interpreting lack of regret as enjoyment, and granted that would be wrong.

I even understand her actions re the Freys given the Red Wedding etc.  However, with perhaps the exception of Ramsay, Joffrey and the Mountain (and Cercei out of paranoia), most characters kill out of perceived necessity.  Arya is an avenger but also a vigilante.

She had no real issue with Daeron, other than mayhaps yes he is a member of the NW and should not go breaking his vows, and hey if I were Lana the prostitute and she starts murdering my customers I may take issue with her lol  Arya is a great character in many respects but does not respect the laws or man or gods, only her own! and has declared herself "Justicier of the Galaxy" or something...  She doesn't just kill those who have wronged her but anyone she thinks is "in the wrong" according to her specific code of conduct...

Don't get me wrong, as I said before, I believe she is on 3 arc development in this story but sometimes I cringe when any other character can put a small foot wrong (even if in deep despair) and everyone seems to think that Arya is totally entitled to "dish out" justice as she sees fit lol

Is Arya supposed to get justice from Cersei, Joffrey, Roose or Ramsay?

Kinslayers, backstabbers, adulterers, infant killers, and rapers. Those are the people who have power in Westeros. Arya is justice in comparison.

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1 hour ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Okay, maybe I am interpreting lack of regret as enjoyment, and granted that would be wrong.

I even understand her actions re the Freys given the Red Wedding etc.  However, with perhaps the exception of Ramsay, Joffrey and the Mountain (and Cercei out of paranoia), most characters kill out of perceived necessity.  Arya is an avenger but also a vigilante.

She had no real issue with Daeron, other than mayhaps yes he is a member of the NW and should not go breaking his vows, and hey if I were Lana the prostitute and she starts murdering my customers I may take issue with her lol  Arya is a great character in many respects but does not respect the laws or man or gods, only her own! and has declared herself "Justicier of the Galaxy" or something...  She doesn't just kill those who have wronged her but anyone she thinks is "in the wrong" according to her specific code of conduct...

Don't get me wrong, as I said before, I believe she is on 3 arc development in this story but sometimes I cringe when any other character can put a small foot wrong (even if in deep despair) and everyone seems to think that Arya is totally entitled to "dish out" justice as she sees fit lol

What actions regarding the Freys are you talking about? Arya has not yet killed any Freys in the books. And yes, Arya is a vigilante taking the law into her own hands, which is not something that is to be applauded. But my point was that she's not so far gone to call her a sociopath or psychopath as some do.  Psychopaths lack a conscience and both psychopaths and sociopaths lack empathy. Arya still has a conscience and feels empathy even towards people she hardly knows. 

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Arya is not a psychopath, People say this a lot but it's nonsense. 

And we have no idea what LF feels when he kills people, say when he killed Dontos for example. Or when he watched Ned beheaded after influencing Joffrey. We do not know because we are not in his head. 

My personal guess is that he doesn't feel all that much at all when he murders Dontos. But that when he watched Ned die he loved it. I'm just guessing based upon what I think of him as a character though. He does not value human life, that much is evident through his chosen method of making money. Pimping women of lower socio economic status for profit. Which includes beating those who do not want to participate in their new "job" does not lend to the idea that a person would be empathetic or respectful of human life. He then uses Jeyne to gain political power by sending her to Tywin to send to Ramsey and though he likely is not in full consciousness of Ramsey's nature. He's still using her as a commodity with total disregard for her safety or her consent. 

This doesn't sound like the kind of person who gives a shit about other people. So I disagree that we can say he doesn't enjoy killing people. There is no evidence that he felt bad at all about killing Dontos. Indeed he seems totally callus when he does it. 

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On 7/22/2017 at 9:42 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Regarding the George comments about Arya and Gendry, well, I wish I could get more info as well but my con friend doesn't visit this forum anymore and moved in the meantime. So I think knowing Arya will flower soon combined with the fact George said he will revisit them should be a good thing. George gave them a song! 

 

Could you explain what you mean by George giving them a song? I'm out of the loop. 

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2 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Could you explain what you mean by George giving them a song? I'm out of the loop. 

Sure, give me a second...

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Posted (edited)

24 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Could you explain what you mean by George giving them a song? I'm out of the loop. 

It is in ASOS/ Arya IV. After Arya and Gendry have the tickle fight and he says she smells nice. It really shows the class struggle between Gendry and Arya (for the future), and yet they both want to be with each other, and both make willing compromises to do so. Gendry is the first stanza, where he wants to impress her with the "featherbed", but Arya in the second stanza explains she doesn't want/need such lavish gifts, just the "simpler" things that will make her happy. Plus, this plays on the romanticized visions we have of Lyanna and Rhaegar and their chase through the woods (and possible union somehow).

Sorry about the long text block. I suck at copy/pasting from kindle to here while in my phone. Give me a second to edit it: 

Tom was singing when they returned to the hall.

My featherbed is deep and soft, and there I’ll lay you down, I’ll dress you all in yellow silk, and on your head a crown. For you shall be my lady love, and I shall be your lord. I’ll always keep you warm and safe, and guard you with my sword.

Harwin took one look at them and burst out laughing, and Anguy smiled one of his stupid freckly smiles and said, “Are we certain this one is a highborn lady?” But Lem Lemoncloak gave Gendry a clout alongside the head. “You want to fight, fight with me! She’s a girl, and half your age! You keep your hands off o’ her, you hear me?”

“I started it,” said Arya. “Gendry was just talking.”

“Leave the boy, Lem,” said Harwin. “Arya did start it, I have no doubt. She was much the same at Winterfell.”

Tom winked at her as he sang:

And how she smiled and how she laughed, the maiden of the tree. She spun away and said to him, no featherbed for me. I’ll wear a gown of golden leaves, and bind my hair with grass, But you can be my forest love, and me your forest lass.

“I have no gowns of leaves,” said Lady Smallwood with a small fond smile, “but Carellen left some other dresses that might serve. Come, child, let us go upstairs and see what we can find.”

It was even worse than before; Lady Smallwood insisted that Arya take another bath, and cut and comb her hair besides; the dress she put her in this time was sort of lilac-colored, and decorated with little baby pearls. The only good thing about it was that it was so delicate that no one could expect her to ride in it. So the next morning as they broke their fast, Lady Smallwood gave her breeches, belt, and tunic to wear, and a brown doeskin jerkin dotted with iron studs. “They were my son’s things,” she said. “He died when he was seven.”

“I’m sorry, my lady.” Arya suddenly felt bad for her, and ashamed. “I’m sorry I tore the acorn dress too. It was pretty.”

“Yes, child. And so are you. Be brave.”

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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On 7/22/2017 at 6:51 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

She's rejecting the cultural norm of marrying for prosperity and political alliance IMO. And will probably marry a man far below her socially. For love, Sandor fits that bill perfectly. Plus there has already been a shit tonne of marriage imagary between them. Which you'd have to be a fool to ignore. Well or have your pearls clutched so tight you have lost the abillity to seperate reality from fiction.  Thankfully the excessive amount of Sansa's sexuality policing which the forums have previously indulged in has ebbed away after it became clear that the author is indeed going to go there.  

 

That's very interesting. Has George said something in an interview to confirm this, or is it more of an interpretation of the text? (I, for one, agree that there's a lot of evidence in the text to support some sort of relationship occurring between Sansa and the Hound later on in the series).

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23 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Could you explain what you mean by George giving them a song? I'm out of the loop. 

Ok, finished :P

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5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It is in ASOS/ Arya IV. After Arya and Gendry have the tickle fight and he says she smells nice. 

Sorry about the long text block. I suck at copy/pasting from kindle to here while in my phone. Give me a second to edit it: 

Tom was singing when they returned to the hall.

My featherbed is deep and soft, and there I’ll lay you down, I’ll dress you all in yellow silk, and on your head a crown. For you shall be my lady love, and I shall be your lord. I’ll always keep you warm and safe, and guard you with my sword.

Harwin took one look at them and burst out laughing, and Anguy smiled one of his stupid freckly smiles and said, “Are we certain this one is a highborn lady?” But Lem Lemoncloak gave Gendry a clout alongside the head. “You want to fight, fight with me! She’s a girl, and half your age! You keep your hands off o’ her, you hear me?” “I started it,” said Arya. “Gendry was just talking.” “Leave the boy, Lem,” said Harwin. “Arya did start it, I have no doubt. She was much the same at Winterfell.”

Tom winked at her as he sang: And how she smiled and how she laughed, the maiden of the tree. She spun away and said to him, no featherbed for me. I’ll wear a gown of golden leaves, and bind my hair with grass, But you can be my forest love, and me your forest lass.

“I have no gowns of leaves,” said Lady Smallwood with a small fond smile, “but Carellen left some other dresses that might serve. Come, child, let us go upstairs and see what we can find.” It was even worse than before; Lady Smallwood insisted that Arya take another bath, and cut and comb her hair besides; the dress she put her in this time was sort of lilac-colored, and decorated with little baby pearls. The only good thing about it was that it was so delicate that no one could expect her to ride in it. So the next morning as they broke their fast, Lady Smallwood gave her breeches, belt, and tunic to wear, and a brown doeskin jerkin dotted with iron studs. “They were my son’s things,” she said. “He died when he was seven.” “I’m sorry, my lady.” Arya suddenly felt bad for her, and ashamed. “I’m sorry I tore the acorn dress too. It was pretty.” “Yes, child. And so are you. Be brave.”

Thanks for the reply. Somehow I never picked up that Tom was singing an original song; I had conflated it with Jenny's Song. 

There would be something poetic about Roberts bastard falling in love with the girl who looks like Lyanna. If the two do end up together, I don't think it will be anytime soon. There's still much left for Arya to do before she returns to the Riverlands, both physically and emotionally. 

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Just now, The Fattest Leech said:

It is in ASOS/ Arya IV. After Arya and Gendry have the tickle fight and he says she smells nice. It really shows the class struggle between Gendry and Arya (for the future), and yet they both want to be with each other, and both make willing compromises to do so. Gendry is the first stanza, where he wants to impress her with the "featherbed", but Arya in the second stanza explains she doesn't want/need such lavish gifts, just the "simpler" things that will make her happy. Plus, this plays on the romanticized visions we have of Lyanna and Rhaegar and their chase through the woods (and possible union somehow).

Sorry about the long text block. I suck at copy/pasting from kindle to here while in my phone. Give me a second to edit it: 

Tom was singing when they returned to the hall.

My featherbed is deep and soft, and there I’ll lay you down, I’ll dress you all in yellow silk, and on your head a crown. For you shall be my lady love, and I shall be your lord. I’ll always keep you warm and safe, and guard you with my sword.

Harwin took one look at them and burst out laughing, and Anguy smiled one of his stupid freckly smiles and said, “Are we certain this one is a highborn lady?” But Lem Lemoncloak gave Gendry a clout alongside the head. “You want to fight, fight with me! She’s a girl, and half your age! You keep your hands off o’ her, you hear me?”

“I started it,” said Arya. “Gendry was just talking.”

“Leave the boy, Lem,” said Harwin. “Arya did start it, I have no doubt. She was much the same at Winterfell.”

Tom winked at her as he sang:

And how she smiled and how she laughed, the maiden of the tree. She spun away and said to him, no featherbed for me. I’ll wear a gown of golden leaves, and bind my hair with grass, But you can be my forest love, and me your forest lass.

“I have no gowns of leaves,” said Lady Smallwood with a small fond smile, “but Carellen left some other dresses that might serve. Come, child, let us go upstairs and see what we can find.”

It was even worse than before; Lady Smallwood insisted that Arya take another bath, and cut and comb her hair besides; the dress she put her in this time was sort of lilac-colored, and decorated with little baby pearls. The only good thing about it was that it was so delicate that no one could expect her to ride in it. So the next morning as they broke their fast, Lady Smallwood gave her breeches, belt, and tunic to wear, and a brown doeskin jerkin dotted with iron studs. “They were my son’s things,” she said. “He died when he was seven.”

“I’m sorry, my lady.” Arya suddenly felt bad for her, and ashamed. “I’m sorry I tore the acorn dress too. It was pretty.”

“Yes, child. And so are you. Be brave.”

it's one of my favorite passages from the books:wub:

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On 12/08/2017 at 3:53 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

That's very interesting. Has George said something in an interview to confirm this, or is it more of an interpretation of the text? (I, for one, agree that there's a lot of evidence in the text to support some sort of relationship occurring between Sansa and the Hound later on in the series).

I was referring to the TWOW sample chapter Alayne I. Where Sansa:

Spoiler

Behaves in a most unvirginal manner. Flirting very suggestively with Harry the Heir. This whilst not implying she'll sleep with him this does suggest that the author does not view her character as someone whom he should not write sexual content for.

 

Which did put to bed the worst of the patriarchal control freak forum users.

 Who were usually extremely offensive towards anyone who suggested Sansa might have her own sexuality and that she might have a relationship with a man of her own choosing. Some people just really can not handle adolescent female sexuality. 

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2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I was referring to the TWOW sample chapter Alayne I. Where Sansa:

  Hide contents

Behaves in a most unvirginal manner. Flirting very suggestively with Harry the Heir. This whilst not implying she'll sleep with him this does suggest that the author does not view her character as someone whom he should not write sexual content for.

 

Which did put to bed the worst of the patriarchal control freak forum users.

 Who were usually extremely offensive towards anyone who suggested Sansa might have her own sexuality and that she might have a relationship with a man of her own choosing. Some people just really can not handle adolescent female sexuality. 

Hopefully we will get to see Sansa in a relationship of her own choosing eventually. Even in TWOW, it's still a game of survival -- Littlefinger's pimping her out to some jerk she doesn't like, and she's trying to win his favor so that she won't be stuck in another miserable relationship. I don't have good feelings about SansaxHarry. Aside from the fact that I think Harry is doomed, I don't think this relationship is going to bring Sansa much personal happiness. It's one of the plots I'm most eager to read about in TWOW. 

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4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Hopefully we will get to see Sansa in a relationship of her own choosing eventually. Even in TWOW, it's still a game of survival -- Littlefinger's pimping her out to some jerk she doesn't like, and she's trying to win his favor so that she won't be stuck in another miserable relationship. I don't have good feelings about SansaxHarry. Aside from the fact that I think Harry is doomed, I don't think this relationship is going to bring Sansa much personal happiness. It's one of the plots I'm most eager to read about in TWOW. 

Yes, I am looking forward to seeing how the Vale plot plays out. I do think we will see her in a relationship of her own choosing in the end. i think that is largely what her story is about. As to Harry I agree I don't think he will be about for long, but equally I don't think Sansa is in any danger of having to have an actual relationship with him.

Spoiler

She strikes a fine balance between playing the game LF instructs her too, ie: flirt with him to win his consent to the betrothal. And keeping herself from ending up in a compromising situation. She does not go out onto the balcony with him. I doubt the relationship will have progressed to one of actually placing herself in any physical contact by the time he pops his clogs. 

 

 

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