S. OF HOUSE STARK

Do Sansa and Jon know Arya was with The Hound?

16 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

It might be an irritating inconsistency, but in E01 whilst Brienne and Podrick are duelling at Winterfell, Littlefinger turns to Sansa and says something to the effect of “she [Brienne] beat the Hound in single combat…”

How would he know this? Brienne is outwardly mistrustful of Littlefinger and withholding by nature. I cannot see her telling anyone who does not need to know. But since he knows, does this mean that Sansa and Jon are also aware Ayra is alive and was held captive by King Joffrey’s rabid dog? Why aren’t they mentioning it? Why aren’t they concerned? Why hasn’t Sansa even mentioned to Jon that Arya is alive?

It’s jarring to me that these coexisting and mutually important narratives seem to be compartmentalised (I am still waiting for Jon and Sansa to touch upon Bran* being alive, which they should have realised was a possibility upon learning that Theon didn’t murder him and Rickon).

Brienne only told Sansa that Arya was with “a man” - she didn’t go into details. Reason says if Jon and Sansa know that Arya was last seen 1) alive and 2) travelling with The Hound, shouldn't they be beside themselves? He might be defeated as far as they are concerned, but that says little about Arya’s welfare.

Or, alternatively, are we as audiences to assume that Sansa didn’t think too much of it, and presumed Brienne beat The Hound in a jousting match years ago? I don’t know. I can’t help but hope that every single piece of dialogue serves a purpose.

So many questions! I hope everything comes together.

+


*another important discussion, not least since it makes him the rightful Lord of Winterfell

Edited by S. OF HOUSE STARK

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GoT has a history of characters not telling other characters the obvious. It makes me mad sometimes. 

Back to Arya. That meeting was probably what? 2 years (in show time) ago? It has no impact to Jon and Sansa if Arya was alive back then. She had time enough to travel to Winterfell or make herself visible otherwise. Best to assume she's dead. 

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5 hours ago, messem said:

GoT has a history of characters not telling other characters the obvious. It makes me mad sometimes. 

Back to Arya. That meeting was probably what? 2 years (in show time) ago? It has no impact to Jon and Sansa if Arya was alive back then. She had time enough to travel to Winterfell or make herself visible otherwise. Best to assume she's dead. 

That goes for the books as well.

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As far as I recall Brienne told Sansa that she saw Arya in s 6, when both ladies were on the way to Wall. Sansa asked smth like "How was she?" and Brienne answered that Arya didn't look like a lady.

LF couldn't know about the Hound and Brienne, b/c none of those who was present during the battle (the Hound, Brienne, Arya) would tell him. And there was noone else around. I guess the showrunners assume that LF knows everything by default.

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It was an out of no where name drop and I'm just ignoring how he knows that too.  That whole Brienne nonsensical omission of "a man" in season 6 felt like a deliberate withhold of information -- not by Brienne, but by the writers.  Like they made a clunky way to have this information be revealed when they needed it to happen, not when it would logically happen.  This name drop by LF felt like an inserted prompt for Sansa to then ask Brienne about it, probably in episode 2.  She obviously wasn't interested in more conversation with LF and she wouldn't want to reveal something personally meaningful that he could use to keep her engaged.  I think she's already then put two and two together of who was taking care of Arya.     

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7 hours ago, messem said:

GoT has a history of characters not telling other characters the obvious. It makes me mad sometimes. 

Back to Arya. That meeting was probably what? 2 years (in show time) ago? It has no impact to Jon and Sansa if Arya was alive back then. She had time enough to travel to Winterfell or make herself visible otherwise. Best to assume she's dead. 

 

It is irritating, I agree.

I disagree with your point about whether Ayra was alive two years ago being of no impact to Jon and Sansa. To learn that their sister survived for years against all odds would be monumental to them - that Ayra could be alive somewhere is a hope they never had before, so it’s a huge deal. It’s the hope of having family again.

Not making herself visible isn’t indicative of her death, either. In all the years she was out in the world alone she never travelled to the Wall, but she was still alive. She had time to make it there but chose not to. And who are they to assume Ayra knows Winterfell is a point of safety? No one is sending ravens to a girl wandering alone through Westeros.

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On Invalid Date at 6:26 PM, S. OF HOUSE STARK said:

 

 

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*another important discussion, not least since it makes him the rightful Lord of Winterfell

Bran!! Yes he is the rightful heir!

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6 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

LF couldn't know about the Hound and Brienne, b/c none of those who was present during the battle (the Hound, Brienne, Arya) would tell him. And there was noone else around. 

Podrick 

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On July 19, 2017 at 0:26 PM, S. OF HOUSE STARK said:

It’s jarring to me that these coexisting and mutually important narratives seem to be compartmentalised (I am still waiting for Jon and Sansa to touch upon Bran* being alive, which they should have realised was a possibility upon learning that Theon didn’t murder him and Rickon).

Jon knew Bran was alive and north of the Wall when Sam told him in season 4. Considering the dangers that lurk Beyond the Wall, believing Bran to be dead isn't entirely unreasonable.

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sansa says to jon we must retake winterfell it is our home and she lists all of them including arya saying "wherever they are" ~battle of bastards epi of season 6, i think

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No, Jon and Sansa do not know Arya was with Sandor. The show has set up this reveal

Spoiler

for Arya'a return.

Sandor asked Arya in S03 to ask Sansa, if she ever saw her again, who came back for her (in the KL riots). Then in S06 the "a man" came up, show still withholding on Sansa. Then here in S07, LF mentions the Hound. Sansa reacts with her side glance and she still can't know. Why do the writers bring it up again? One, two, three - first time you might not notice, second time gets you wondering, third mention everyone should notice (classic story repetition) - so yeah, Sansa and Jon (and LF) have no idea. Arya is setup as the one to tell Sansa and

Spoiler

it will have to come out with Brienne. She and Arya have only their monumental, plot changing meeting with Sandor in common. Of course he has to come up. And that leads to Arya telling Sansa herself.

 

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21 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

It was an out of no where name drop and I'm just ignoring how he knows that too.  That whole Brienne nonsensical omission of "a man" in season 6 felt like a deliberate withhold of information -- not by Brienne, but by the writers.  Like they made a clunky way to have this information be revealed when they needed it to happen, not when it would logically happen.  This name drop by LF felt like an inserted prompt for Sansa to then ask Brienne about it, probably in episode 2.  She obviously wasn't interested in more conversation with LF and she wouldn't want to reveal something personally meaningful that he could use to keep her engaged.  I think she's already then put two and two together of who was taking care of Arya.     

The Hound did walk up to that gate into the Vale and announced that he had Arya Stark with him. The information could feasibly have been relayed to Littlefinger at a later time. If he overheard Brienne talking about having met Arya Stark, he could have come to the conclusion that the Hound would not release his prize to her, so they would have had to fight over Arya. Given that Brienne is walking and talking, and the Hound appears to have disappeared, it stands to reason that Brienne won. There are an awful lot of ifs and jumping to conclusions here, though.

Simpler explanations would be Podrick (unlikely) or writer goof (likely).

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My bets on Podrick. But plot holes in the show are the size of the Grand Canyon at this point.

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Posted (edited)

I don't get why this information been withhold? What a big difference it makes if Arya and The Hound were traveling around Riverlands two years ago? If it would have happened two weeks ago, I would understand. Arya goes to KL so they won't see her anytime soon. Sandor goes to the North, but how helpful the information that Arya was alive 2 years ago would be for Jon and Sandra?

Edited by Ashes Of Westeros

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5 hours ago, Zumbs said:

The Hound did walk up to that gate into the Vale and announced that he had Arya Stark with him. The information could feasibly have been relayed to Littlefinger at a later time. If he overheard Brienne talking about having met Arya Stark, he could have come to the conclusion that the Hound would not release his prize to her, so they would have had to fight over Arya. Given that Brienne is walking and talking, and the Hound appears to have disappeared, it stands to reason that Brienne won. There are an awful lot of ifs and jumping to conclusions here, though.

Simpler explanations would be Podrick (unlikely) or writer goof (likely)

Yet I don't think it was... which is :dunno:.  You're right, it would be the sensible thing for the gate guards to relay that information.  That right there was dumb enough that they were sent away, so I can't rely on them having the sense to relay the information.  I think what they wanted was a tragic comedy moment and a close brush with Sansa.  Because the attempt to go to the Eyrie wasn't even really necessary to having the encounter with Brienne, which was the show's way of "killing" the Hound.  The audience is very frequently put in a position of having to logically find reasons for why these things happen.  You would think though if he knew about all this, being LF he might try to cause a rift between Sansa and Brienne who wants LF gone.  See, even I'm doing it -- trying to find a reason for anything to make sense.  It think it really does boil down to writers not wanting information to come to light at a certain time, but going about it in an illogical withholding of information.  Because what they actually want is a "dramatically satisfying" revelation of information or meeting of characters when they want it to happen.            

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In the many inconsistencies of the show, this one ranks up there with, "When I saw your sister, she was with a random guy." No "What guy?" Just "Oh, how did she look?" and "Not like a lady." One of the dumbest scenes I ever saw and indicative of the one step forward, nine thousand steps back thing that the writers like to do with Sansa's character. But assuming Sansa now has any clue revealed off screen about Arya and Sandor, I wouldn't expect her to discuss it with LF as she's trying to keep things close to the vest now. In this faux feud with Jon, perhaps she hasn't seen fit to mention it either for all the stupid reasons the writers could ever come up with. As for LF knowing anything, well, this also goes the same way as his jetpack. Never to be resolved; just go with it.

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