Northern House Specialties

[FylkirKarl]

There are examples of certain houses having a specialty in the South too, but I'm going to focus on the North. Each house in the North from the Starks to the Glovers, Umbers, Blackwoods, and Manderlys, each house seems to have a certain specialty or place when the North goes to war. Some of these are obvious like the Starks being the generals, Umbers being the heavy infantry, the Blackwoods when they were apart of the North being the archers as House Blackwood has had many famous archers from Bloodraven to Robb Rivers, the Manderly's take the place of being the heavy cavalry, the Reeds seem to be good at skirmishing, and the Boltons tend to be terror troops. Anyways, what are some other specialties that the other houses of the North have? The Ryswell and Dustins seem to excel at cavalry, of which class I do not know. The Mountain Clans seem to have a special affinity for winter warfare considering the snowshoes they use, and how they seem to take less casualties while Stannis's Southron men are dropping like flies. What do you guys think? I'll put the list of houses that I haven't figured out yet below:

Cerwyn

Dustin

Flint

Glover

Hornwood

Karstark

Mormont

Norrey

Ryswell

Tallhart

Wull

 

[Lord Vance II]

I think it's more who has the money to support cavalry and such. Manderly has the most because he's the richest. Manderly also has the faith of the seven factor leading to more trained knights. The Ryswells and Dustins are noted to love horses, but it doesn't mean they have elite cavalrymen. The chief Boltons and their lieutenants are brutal, but I don't think we're led to believe their foots soldiers are any more vicious than others. I don't know if the mountain clans are any better at winter warfare than anyone else either, when we see them their contrasted against ill-prepared southern knights. 

I'd say survival and hardiness would be the hallmarks of any Northern house, though. To me Manderly is the only one who as a house is truly different in it's military capacity (wealth, faith, possession of a port city). The rest is just economics. 

[Graydon Hicks]

this is something ive always wondered at with westerosi armies, but the posts keep devolving into a debate of numbers, rather specialties. i can see the glovers and forresters, and maybe mormonts? being skilled woodsman and scouts. and just because the rysells and dustins dont have "knights" per say, doesnt mean they may not have heavy cavalry. being a knight is more a formal recognition of skill by the nobility and religious sects. but the northmen are first men blood, and they dont follow the same knightly traditions as the south. that doesnt mean they dont have men skilled enough to be knights.

[John Doe]

I doubt most houses have specialities. Sure, the Umbers will be more fierce than others, since they frequently encounter Wildling raiders. The Manderlies will field more heavy cavalry than most other northern lords, since they are the wealthiest house and culturally andal in origin. But apart from that they are all made up of the same levies drafted from the same farms and towns, with little variation I think. 

[Graydon Hicks]

i will say that military specialties tend to arise do to the environments those armies come from. an army made of folks from a heavily forested area is less likely to use lots of cavalry, and more towards woodcrafty infantry, while an army from the plains will more horseman, and its people could get lost 20 feet into a copse of trees. granted that is an exaggeration, but it give a general idea. environments shape what an army is capable of doing. 

[Luddagain]

I am NOT sure that the Manderlys are Andal. They seem to PRECEDE them and to be connected with Garth Gardner. Also they are the navy.

[Bernie Mac]

On 19/07/2017 at 5:39 PM, FylkirKarl said:

Umbers being the heavy infantry,

That does not seem to be true. Roose leads the entirety of the Northern infantry in the books and while there will be Umbers present they do not seem to take a leading role. In the descriptions of the battle of the Green Fork there is not a single mention of the Umbers"

Gods be damned, look at them all, Tyrion thought, though he knew his father had more men on the field. Their captains led them on armored warhorses, standard-bearers riding alongside with their banners. He glimpsed the bull moose of the Hornwoods, the Karstark sunburst, Lord Cerwyn's battle-axe, and the mailed fist of the Glovers … and the twin towers of Frey, blue on grey."

Even later in the books when Brienne comes across the dead bodies or armoury of Northern soldiers we never see the Umbers be mentioned;

"There was clothing to be had as well: leather boots, fur cloaks, stained surcoats with suspicious rents. She knew many of the badges. The mailed fist, the moose, the white sun, the double-bladed axe, all those were northern sigils."

I'm not sure how the Umbers have this fandom reputation as being infantry specialists. 

On 19/07/2017 at 5:39 PM, FylkirKarl said:

 

the Blackwoods when they were apart of the North

They lived in the North, they were never part of a Northern kingdom. Plus them having notable arhcers in the last few centuries has no bearing on their capabilities thousands of years ago. 

On 19/07/2017 at 5:39 PM, FylkirKarl said:

 

 the Reeds seem to be good at skirmishing,

Nope. Quite the opposite infact. The Reeds rely on fighting from distance and undercover. They'd be quite useless and skirmishing. This is what Bran knows about them

"They were a poor folk, fishers and frog-hunters who lived in houses of thatch and woven reeds on floating islands hidden in the deeps of the swamp. It was said that they were a cowardly people who fought with poisoned weapons and preferred to hide from foes rather than face them in open battle."

And there is nothing in any of the canon books that really contradict this. 

On 19/07/2017 at 5:39 PM, FylkirKarl said:

 

and the Boltons tend to be terror troops.

Not actually sure what this means but again, I don't think so as there does not seem to be much difference between the Boltons and the other troops in the North. Just because their Lord rulers a castle called the Dreadfort does not make them any more formidable in battle than say the Hornwoods

 

[FylkirKarl]

Robb originally wanted to appoint the Greatjon for his renown as a warrior, but his mother suggested Roose for his cold cunning which would of did a better job of leading on Tywin as to thinking he was facing the full North, and not just the infantry while Robb went to Riverrun to relieve the siege of it. The lack of mention of the Umbers in the battle of the Green Fork is to be expected as they are the Northern most house of the North with them being in conflict with the Free Folk often, the fact that they live in the coldest and harshest region of the North will explain why they have less numbers than the Karstark or Cerwyns or Freys who benefit more from warmer weathers. BTW, the lack of mention of the Umber dead or Umber standards doesn't mean that they weren't there, if that was the case, then the only houses fighting in the Greenfork would be Cerwyn, Karstark, Gloverm, and Frey, but we know for a fact that Manderly, Umber, Mormont, Bolton and etc were there. 

The two above images are pictures of what Fantasy Fpresulight Games imagines what Umber warriors look like, the first being a champion, while the second being a Berserker. The fact that the Umbers are renowned for being big, hulking warriors with giant axes and swords doesn't help against the case that they would be heavy infantry.

House Blackwood is renowned for their archers in both fanon, and canon which lends credence to them being the best hunters, and archers, doesn't help that they also controlled most of the Wolfswood before being chased from the North, the Wolfswood being the most heavily forested area of Westeros other than the Kingswood and Rainwood. The fact they originated in an area known for hunters, and the fact now that since they've resided in the Riverlands, which has been a while, and have produced notable archers since then lends the idea that I proposed which is that they produced great archers.

House Reed, and the rest of the Crannogmen are renowned for their skirmisher tactics, and their hit-and-run style of warfare where they attack from afar, and then retreat back into the the terrain in which they are accustomed to, and use to great affect against Southron armies to Ironborn Reavers.

For House Bolton, my presumption of them being terror troops doesn't mean that I think they are more formidable in battle against another house, what I'm saying is that the Boltons are perfect for psychological and terror warfare. When you think of house called Bolton that's sigil is a flayed man, who has a history of flaying their enemies, who controls a castle named the Dreadfort, and who's house words are, "Our Knives Are Sharp", that tends to spread some fear in an opposing army. It also doesn't help when House Bolton has ancestors who were known for plunging their arms into a captives stomach to pull their guts out or for making a pavillion out of the skins of 100 enemy soldiers. The Kings of Winter would of used House Bolton as their fear, and their terror soldiers. Burn this village, torture these soldiers, flay this lord, etc would be the sort of job for House Bolton.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, FylkirKarl said:

Robb originally wanted to appoint the Greatjon for his renown as a warrior,

No he does not. He suggests the Greatjon because he keeps on volunteering. 

"The Greatjon is always saying that we should smash Lord Tywin. I thought I'd give him the honor."

Nothing about it being because he is a great warrior (not that I am suggesting he is not). Though I'm puzzled how the Greatjon being a great warrior means the Umbers are infantry specialists? 

 

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The lack of mention of the Umbers in the battle of the Green Fork is to be expected as they are the Northern most house of the North with them being in conflict with the Free Folk often, the fact that they live in the coldest and harshest region of the North will explain why they have less numbers than the Karstark or Cerwyns or Freys who benefit more from warmer weathers.

eh? This makes zero sense. You would think that the supposed infantry specialists would be more notable in the Northern infantry. In the books they are not. 

 

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BTW, the lack of mention of the Umber dead or Umber standards doesn't mean that they weren't there,

At no point did I claim this. I claimed they were not a notable part of the force in the book descriptions. And the fact that Robb had both the Greatjon and his heir the Smalljon with him and the Northern cavalry rather than helping out his greater infantry host is either evidence that the Umbers are not renowned for their specialism in the infantry or that Robb is an idiot.

 

Again, I am only going on what the books have told us. I'd love to see some actual evidence from the books on the Umbers being infantry specialists.  

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The two above images are pictures of what Fantasy Fpresulight Games imagines what Umber warriors look like, the first being a champion, while the second being a Berserker. The fact that the Umbers are renowned for being big, hulking warriors with giant axes and swords doesn't help against the case that they would be heavy infantry.

Come on? This is what you are basing your thoughts on? A picture?

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House Blackwood is renowned for their archers in both fanon, and canon which lends credence to them being the best hunters, and archers, doesn't help that they also controlled most of the Wolfswood before being chased from the North, the Wolfswood being the most heavily forested area of Westeros other than the Kingswood and Rainwood.

We a re talking about thousands of years since they, if they ever did, live in the North.

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House Reed, and the rest of the Crannogmen are renowned for their skirmisher tactics,

No they are not. I quoted from the books were it says they prefer to fight from distance. Quote the books where it is claimed they are renowned for their skirmishing abilities?

 

I will help you out; https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=skirmish

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That does not seem to be true. Roose leads the entirety of the Northern infantry in the books and while there will be Umbers present they do not seem to take a leading role. In the descriptions of the battle of the Green Fork there is not a single mention of the Umbers"

Gods be damned, look at them all, Tyrion thought, though he knew his father had more men on the field. Their captains led them on armored warhorses, standard-bearers riding alongside with their banners. He glimpsed the bull moose of the Hornwoods, the Karstark sunburst, Lord Cerwyn's battle-axe, and the mailed fist of the Glovers … and the twin towers of Frey, blue on grey."

Even later in the books when Brienne comes across the dead bodies or armoury of Northern soldiers we never see the Umbers be mentioned;

"There was clothing to be had as well: leather boots, fur cloaks, stained surcoats with suspicious rents. She knew many of the badges. The mailed fist, the moose, the white sun, the double-bladed axe, all those were northern sigils."

I'm not sure how the Umbers have this fandom reputation as being infantry specialists. 

That's a very interesting point that you raise. The implication is that the Umber forces were concentrated quite heavily with Robb's cavalry host, rather than with Bolton's infantry force. Which would assist in explaining an odd discrepancy in Robb's original 12,000 strong host at Winterfell - namely its very high cavalry to infantry ratio. Basically, if the Umbers provided a very high ratio of cavalry and relatively low infantry numbers, it would help cancel out the very low numbers of cavalry brought to Winterfell by the Karstarks (only 300 out of 2300 men), the Mountain Clans, and no doubt the Mormonts too.

The Umbers may not be heavily weighted to infantry at all, but instead may possess a strong cavalry presence in their host.

[Trigger Warning]

Well this depends, are we being realistic or not? 

If every house in the North could afford to field as much heavy horse as house Manderly they would, your average man at arms will generally only vary by culture and equipment and that'd be a big culture difference, say between Dorne and The North and the Iron Islands. Your average man at arms will be equipped to the standard their lord can afford then trained in the typical manner of their culture, your peasants that are raised in the levy will mostly be farmers, where you've been farming won't make much of a difference when you're thrust into combat. Even if you have a lot of woodland your people won't all be living in the woods, they'll be gathered around whatever agricultural centres you own, not chopping lumber all day and fighting wildlings all night. Now let's say that for some reason some lord does raise a levy consisting of woodsmen they're still going to be equipped to fight in the line, trained to fight in the line and thrust into the line. For what reason would you want to raise a levy of woodsmen? They'd hardly ever be useful, you already have scouts that you trust, on horseback, the situations where that's going to useful will be few and far between on campaign, they're better off in the line, poking people with a spear, same as some mountain man, sure they might fair better if you had to prosecute a campaign in the mountains but again, when's that relevant? Just because the Crannogmen can conduct asymmetrical warfare in their own very specific backyard doesn't mean they're expert skirmishers, basically anyone can do that in their home region against foreign enemies. 

TL;DR average pleb in the levy has a farming background and men at arms basically provide the same function all over Westeros with varying degrees of difference in equipment. Also does anyone else think it's dumb that the wealthiest nobles in the North aren't armed and armoured exactly the same as those in the South when they're going to a pitched battle, Ser Hugh has a suit good enough for jousting and it apparently only cost him some silver.