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What if House Tyrell rebelled?


UFT

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lets say joffrey never chops off ned's head but instead makes good on his promise to outlaw homosexuality and punished it by chopping off loras head after finding out about him and renly?

mace raises his banners in rebellion and the war begins. ned is still jailed and crippled btw. 

 

 

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hmmm, i would guess that mace wouldlead his 100 k army against joffrey's loyalists, a vastly outnumbered force, but get his ass kicked do to his incompetence. then garlan would step up to command the army, while olenna forces mace, if he's still alive, to step aside so wilas takes over at highgarden. then the tryell start making a better show of their campaign, but the losses they took from tywin while mace was in command forces them to seek out allies.

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2 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

You do know they did rebell right

i obviously mean the scenario is mace doesn't care about renly initially or at least doesnt rebel because of him. but rather to get revenge on the IT

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12 hours ago, UFT said:

lets say joffrey never chops off ned's head but instead makes good on his promise to outlaw homosexuality and punished it by chopping off loras head after finding out about him and renly?

mace raises his banners in rebellion and the war begins. ned is still jailed and crippled btw. 

Loras and Renly have already fled King's Landing at this point, Renly's already planning to rebel seeing as Cersei's coup still happens, which is what caused him to crown himself in the first place.

Essentially, nothing changes, Mace declares for Renly.

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11 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

hmmm, i would guess that mace wouldlead his 100 k army against joffrey's loyalists, a vastly outnumbered force, but get his ass kicked do to his incompetence. then garlan would step up to command the army, while olenna forces mace, if he's still alive, to step aside so wilas takes over at highgarden. then the tryell start making a better show of their campaign, but the losses they took from tywin while mace was in command forces them to seek out allies.

Well it depends.  What do we mean by "rebel"?  If you mean they declare for a different candidate for the Iron Throne, as IOTL, then... exactly what happens IOTL occurs.  The Reach, being more powerful than any other two Kingdoms combined, curb stomps the opposition and puts its preferred candidate on the throne.  Just like what happened.

If you mean, the Tyrells secede from the authority of Kings Landing entirely, that's a more interesting question.  Most likely, there is an immediate revolt by one of the bluer-blooded Tyrell vassals, like the Florents, Rowans, or Hightowers, who immediately build a loyalist coalition and declare for the Iron Throne, with the expectation that they'll be given Highgarden and overlordship of the Reach when the puny Tyrell revolt is inevitably crushed.  My guess is nearly every House does this, leaving the Tyrells entirely isolated, and everyone campaigning as quickly and viciously as possible to take control of Highgarden under the assumption that possession is 9/10's of the law, and whoever's troops hold the capital of the Reach will be named the new Lord Paramount.

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8 hours ago, Sullen said:

Loras and Renly have already fled King's Landing at this point, Renly's already planning to rebel seeing as Cersei's coup still happens, which is what caused him to crown himself in the first place.

Essentially, nothing changes, Mace declares for Renly.

again the timeline shifts because joffrey kills loras. so obviously they send lannister men after him and capture him on the road. idk i just want a tyrell vs iron throne war. 

why does everyone on this goddamn forum keep going "herp derp this AT cant happen" when all i want to know is what happens if it did? 

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20 hours ago, UFT said:

lets say joffrey never chops off ned's head but instead makes good on his promise to outlaw homosexuality and punished it by chopping off loras head after finding out about him and renly?

mace raises his banners in rebellion and the war begins. ned is still jailed and crippled btw.

Sorry to say, but Joffrey never made any remarks about homosexuality in the books. It doesn't seem to be a thing anyone is concerned about. Cersei doesn't even use it against the Tyrells during her scheming with the Faith, so homosexuality basically seems to be a non-factor to most.

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21 hours ago, UFT said:

lets say joffrey never chops off ned's head but instead makes good on his promise to outlaw homosexuality and punished it by chopping off loras head after finding out about him and renly?

mace raises his banners in rebellion and the war begins. ned is still jailed and crippled btw. 

Something would have to happen so Ned dies by Joff's hand and then highgarden is brought back into the king's peace so the story can continue as written

 

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Renly´s sexuality is much more ambiguous in the books, many people miss it completely on the first read and it´s certainly far from common knowledge.

I can only imagine two people having knowledge of his relationship with Loras aside from their closest circle.  And neither Varys nor Littlefinger should have any interest in war between the Lannisters and the Tyrells at that point.

 

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4 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

If you mean, the Tyrells secede from the authority of Kings Landing entirely, that's a more interesting question.  Most likely, there is an immediate revolt by one of the bluer-blooded Tyrell vassals, like the Florents, Rowans, or Hightowers, who immediately build a loyalist coalition and declare for the Iron Throne, with the expectation that they'll be given Highgarden and overlordship of the Reach when the puny Tyrell revolt is inevitably crushed.  My guess is nearly every House does this, leaving the Tyrells entirely isolated, and everyone campaigning as quickly and viciously as possible to take control of Highgarden under the assumption that possession is 9/10's of the law, and whoever's troops hold the capital of the Reach will be named the new Lord Paramount.

What story have you been reading Tyrells team up with Renly have full backing of the Reach, but in this new version their banner men rise up against them because they are going it alone?

Ned dead or not the north is already marching south, Lannisters already engaged in the Riverlands, Stannis will still declare himself king.

@UFT reason ppl keep ripping your fan fic apart is because they don't make any sense, you change 1 part of a sequence of events ignore surrounding and consequential actions to develop a new narrative that is inferior to what Martin has written.

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12 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

What story have you been reading Tyrells team up with Renly have full backing of the Reach, but in this new version their banner men rise up against them because they are going it alone?

Um... I've been reading the story where the Tyrells support Renly for the Iron Throne, not where they declare an independent Kingdom of the Reach.

Because in this case they're still supporting the Iron Throne, which is where their authority comes from in the first place.  As long as the Tyrells stay loyal to someone on the Iron Throne, they keep their overlordship.  Because their candidate, if they hold the Iron Throne, will march on in and take care of any rebel lords with the power of the rest of the Seven Kingdoms backing them

If the Tyrells choose to recreate the Kingdom of the Reach, their vassals will immediately let out all their greivances about how the Tyrells have a weak blood claim and try to take the Oakenseat, because the Tyrells don't have a ton of support and there is no outside power to prop them up.

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11 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Um... I've been reading the story where the Tyrells support Renly for the Iron Throne, not where they declare an independent Kingdom of the Reach.

Because in this case they're still supporting the Iron Throne, which is where their authority comes from in the first place.  As long as the Tyrells stay loyal to someone on the Iron Throne, they keep their overlordship.  Because their candidate, if they hold the Iron Throne, will march on in and take care of any rebel lords with the power of the rest of the Seven Kingdoms backing them

If the Tyrells choose to recreate the Kingdom of the Reach, their vassals will immediately let out all their greivances about how the Tyrells have a weak blood claim and try to take the Oakenseat, because the Tyrells don't have a ton of support and there is no outside power to prop them up.

Think you will find Renly was not sitting on the Iron throne just one of several pretenders, when Stannis to over Renlys host the Tyrells kept their bannermen, and kept them again when they backed the Lannisters.

Tyrells are smart the have married and intermarriage with their strongest bannermen

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Joff wouldn't get any help from the North, Vale and Riverlands. The Stormlands would probably be with Stannis or Renly, depending on who was alive, and Dorne hates the Lannisters even more than the Tyrells. So it would be West + Crown against the Reach. Unless there is a betrayal among the Reachmen, I think they have good chances of winning this.

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well, even if joff didnt take neds head, eddard was still imprisoned, and thats what sparked robb marching south, he meant to free his father, and went on to fight jaime at riverrun, cause the lannisters had attacked the riverlands because of cat taking the imp. so the stark force and riverlords are still fighting the lannisters, but ned is still hostage in this scenario. so lannisters might be more willing to treat, since they still have someone to trade beyond sansa.

i dont think the reah forces will curbstomp, especially if mace is leading it, which he would. he still thinks that his siege of storms end is a great military victory. he is an idiot that thinks he is a military genius. so he would blunder, and get a lot of men killed by a much smaller force.

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On 7/21/2017 at 10:07 PM, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Think you will find Renly was not sitting on the Iron throne just one of several pretenders, when Stannis to over Renlys host the Tyrells kept their bannermen, and kept them again when they backed the Lannisters.

Tyrells are smart the have married and intermarriage with their strongest bannermen

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove?  There were, indeed, several pretenders.... to the Iron Throne.  As I said, nowhere in anything either you or I have said, are the Tyrells declaring independence.  So... either you like to read your own poorly spelled posts, or you're having a lot of difficulty understanding the difference between backing a claimant to a pre-existing throne to which you are a vassal, and declaring oneself kings outright.

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3 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove?  There were, indeed, several pretenders.... to the Iron Throne.  As I said, nowhere in anything either you or I have said, are the Tyrells declaring independence.  So... either you like to read your own poorly spelled posts, or you're having a lot of difficulty understanding the difference between backing a claimant to a pre-existing throne to which you are a vassal, and declaring oneself kings outright.

You seem to have got it in your head that the Tyrell banner men are itching to overthrow them.

You state that they only keep their power due to being aligned to the iron throne, or a pretender to the throne.

If IF their banner men hated them as much as you imagine they have had 3 chances to stab them in their back and stayed true to their overlords.

The Tyrells are now the throne, it will be interesting to see how loyal their men will be when a stronger army lands i.e. Dany.  I imagine a few will see the tide turning and jump ship, this despite the having the backing of the Iron throne.

So no Tyrell banner men have not revolted and shown no sign of doing so.  If they decided to take on the whole of the 7 kingdoms then yes Florents would probably be the first to jump ship but

On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 4:01 PM, John Doe said:

Joff wouldn't get any help from the North, Vale and Riverlands. The Stormlands would probably be with Stannis or Renly, depending on who was alive, and Dorne hates the Lannisters even more than the Tyrells. So it would be West + Crown against the Reach. Unless there is a betrayal among the Reachmen, I think they have good chances of winning this.

Poor spelling or not the Tyrells have blood ties with most of the power in the Reach.

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2 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

You seem to have got it in your head that the Tyrell banner men are itching to overthrow them.

Well who knows where I could have got that idea!  Unless, of course, it's literally from the text itself.

You Starks were kings once, the Arryns and the Lannisters as well, and even the Baratheons through the female line, but the Tyrells were no more than stewards until Aegon the Dragon came along and cooked the rightful King of the Reach on the Field of Fire. If truth be told, even our claim to Highgarden is a bit dodgy, just as those dreadful Florents are always whining. 

The Tyrells are upstarts, and they know it.  Part of the fantasy aspect of Westeros is family lines and noble houses that stretch back millennia - the three centuries of Targaryen rule are a blink of an eye to them, and there is no question the Tyrells have less control over their bannermen that your average Lord Paramount, which is why the Reach is often more divided than the other kingdoms when it comes to civil strife.

2 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Poor spelling or not the Tyrells have blood ties with most of the power in the Reach.

Get this straight: every single Lord Paramount has extensive ties with their bannermen.  It's the nature of the beast.  The difference is that the Lannisters, Arryns, and Starks are Houses with thousands of years of authority behind them.  The Baratheons are a continuation of the Durrandons through the female line.  The Martells don't have the same history as some other houses, but have been kings for a thousand years; even that isn't enough to lessen the pretensions of their stronger bannermen, like the Yronwoods ("the Bloodroyals").

Marriage alliances mean something, but in a continent with 8,000 years of more-or-less traceable history, everyone is related to everyone.

2 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

If IF their banner men hated them as much as you imagine they have had 3 chances to stab them in their back and stayed true to their overlords.

Well, the Florents did, so... you've got that.

But look beyond the one single instance you've quoted.  In the Blackfyre Rebellions (and in fAegon's upcoming invasion), the Reach was bitterly divided.  In the Dance, the Reach was bitterly divided, with the Tyrells unable to maintain any control and sitting out the fight as a result.  In most major wars on Westeros, the Reach splits... because the Tyrells don't have the authority to compel their vassals to obedience, and those vassals often see an opportunity to gain control of Highgarden by supporting one side or another.  Whereas, for example, it's an accepted fact that the Starks will rule in Winterfell; Ramsay can't be given the castle, he has to go through the farce of marrying Jeyne/Arya to lay claim to it.

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