What if House Tyrell rebelled?

[elder brother jonothor dar]

Yawn the Starks are the exception blackfyre and dance all regions where divided.

I was thinking more along the lines of living relatives not ancestors.

I quoted one instance as that is the scenario given in the OP, I accept that their claim was tenuous once soon a time, I accept should a greater power (Dany) arrive they may loose some of their banner men.  But at Roberts death

On Thursday, July 20, 2017 at 5:28 AM, UFT said:

chopping off loras head after finding out about him and renly?

mace raises his banners in rebellion and the war begins. ned is still jailed and crippled btw. 

What we know is the Tyrells did rebell and declare for Renly, they then withdrew from the field with all their strength less Florents.  At this point they are rebells from the Throne have no alliances and keep hold of ALL their banner men.

How do you not see that is exactly the scenario the OP described except Loras would be dead giving them a legitimate reason to rebell.

[Stormking902]

Why does everyone think the Tyrells bannerman are unloyal? Lord Leyton Hightower is the grandfather of all 4 of Maces children and the Redwyns are closely related as well which means the Tyrells will have the 2nd and 3rd most powerful Reach houses on there side which will cause the other bannerman to stay loyal. 

[cpg2016]

16 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

What we know is the Tyrells did rebell and declare for Renly, they then withdrew from the field with all their strength less Florents.  At this point they are rebells from the Throne have no alliances and keep hold of ALL their banner men.

Look, you seem to have a hard time understanding nuance, so I'll try once more to lay this out.

There are multiple ways in which one can rebel.  If the Tyrells are supporting a rebel faction for the Iron Throne, they are still implicitly acknowledging that they are part of the Seven Kingdoms and subject to the jurisdiction of King's Landing.  That is a LOT different than declaring an independent Kingdom of the Reach.  The Iron Throne appointed the Tyrells as the Lords of Highgarden; by fighting within the context of a constituent region of the Seven Kingdoms, the Tyrells can still claim overlordship on that basis.  If they declare independence, all of a sudden they have little to no legal right to the Oakenseat; their authority came from the Targaryens, from an overlord - the Iron Throne.  Once there is no longer a higher power decreeing that they are the Lords Paramount of the Reach, their "dodgy" blood claim becomes a lot more problematic for them, because someone with a better blood claim will assert their right to rule.  As long as they fight for a claimant for the Iron Throne, they can sleep easy, knowing that their candidate will keep them confirmed as Lords Paramount (assuming they win, of course).  I think that if Stannis wins the Wot5K, the Florents are given Highgarden.  If Mace doesn't transfer his allegiance to Tywin, I bet one of his bannermen would have.  Mind you, it's worth mentioning that the loyalist Highgarden vassals slaughter a ton of men they suspect would go over to Stannis after Storm's End. 

[cpg2016]

16 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

What we know is the Tyrells did rebell and declare for Renly, they then withdrew from the field with all their strength less Florents.  At this point they are rebells from the Throne have no alliances and keep hold of ALL their banner men.

Look, you seem to have a hard time understanding nuance, so I'll try once more to lay this out.

There are multiple ways in which one can rebel.  If the Tyrells are supporting a rebel faction for the Iron Throne, they are still implicitly acknowledging that they are part of the Seven Kingdoms and subject to the jurisdiction of King's Landing.  That is a LOT different than declaring an independent Kingdom of the Reach.  The Iron Throne appointed the Tyrells as the Lords of Highgarden; by fighting within the context of a constituent region of the Seven Kingdoms, the Tyrells can still claim overlordship on that basis.  If they declare independence, all of a sudden they have little to no legal right to the Oakenseat; their authority came from the Targaryens, from an overlord - the Iron Throne.  Once there is no longer a higher power decreeing that they are the Lords Paramount of the Reach, their "dodgy" blood claim becomes a lot more problematic for them, because someone with a better blood claim will assert their right to rule.  As long as they fight for a claimant for the Iron Throne, they can sleep easy, knowing that their candidate will keep them confirmed as Lords Paramount (assuming they win, of course).  I think that if Stannis wins the Wot5K, the Florents are given Highgarden.  If Mace doesn't transfer his allegiance to Tywin, I bet one of his bannermen would have for the same reward.  Mind you, it's worth mentioning that the loyalist Highgarden vassals slaughter a ton of men they suspect would go over to Stannis after Storm's End. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

@cpg2016 I don't believe I quite got it. Can we get a triple post?

[Graydon Hicks]

13 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Look, you seem to have a hard time understanding nuance, so I'll try once more to lay this out.

There are multiple ways in which one can rebel.  If the Tyrells are supporting a rebel faction for the Iron Throne, they are still implicitly acknowledging that they are part of the Seven Kingdoms and subject to the jurisdiction of King's Landing.  That is a LOT different than declaring an independent Kingdom of the Reach.  The Iron Throne appointed the Tyrells as the Lords of Highgarden; by fighting within the context of a constituent region of the Seven Kingdoms, the Tyrells can still claim overlordship on that basis.  If they declare independence, all of a sudden they have little to no legal right to the Oakenseat; their authority came from the Targaryens, from an overlord - the Iron Throne.  Once there is no longer a higher power decreeing that they are the Lords Paramount of the Reach, their "dodgy" blood claim becomes a lot more problematic for them, because someone with a better blood claim will assert their right to rule.  As long as they fight for a claimant for the Iron Throne, they can sleep easy, knowing that their candidate will keep them confirmed as Lords Paramount (assuming they win, of course).  I think that if Stannis wins the Wot5K, the Florents are given Highgarden.  If Mace doesn't transfer his allegiance to Tywin, I bet one of his bannermen would have for the same reward.  Mind you, it's worth mentioning that the loyalist Highgarden vassals slaughter a ton of men they suspect would go over to Stannis after Storm's End. 

that makes a lot of sense, about how the greater part of the tyrell authority actually stems from the iron throne. would explian why the try so hard at marriage alliances, marrying into the redwynes, the highttowers, trying to marry margery to the iron throne. to shore up as many claims and ties as they can. i might be a constant subconscious fear of mace tyrell, that robert, and later joffrey and tommen, might reject the tyrell position as lords of highgarden, and their status as wardens of the south.

of course this fear might be, in the case that the tyrells rebel, force them to seek alliances outside the reach, who will in turn support the tyrell claim to highgarden. robb would have already been in the riverlands, because in this scenario, ned is still imprisoned in the red keep, and the north is willing to go to war to free him. would robb still be declared king? i dont think so, if ned is alive. but he might present a tempting opportunity to the tyrells, at least to olenna. and if robb was still declared king, then he looks more attractive as prospect for margery, since it would make her a queen, and give the tyrells a powerful ally that already proved willing to fight for its southern family members, as robb proved by breaking the siege of riverrun. or was that after ned died? i get mixed up on the timeline sometimes.

 

[Trigger Warning]

Don't know if House Tyrell has enough control over the Reach to rebel without the Reach tearing itself apart, when Penrose lists the lords and ladies that "loved Renly best" he lists several prominent nobles from the Reach so it's not like Renly just cultivated a relationship with Highgarden and Highgarden in turn gave him the Reach, they rose in rebellion for Renly not for Mace. The huge army that we see in Clash may very well be lightning in a bottle. If Highgarden rebels without a popular figurehead such as Renly then their vassals that consider them up jumped stewards may side with the Iron Throne for the sake of their own advancement. The army that remains after Renly's death consists of those nobles that were closest to Renly (as Penrose is noting their absence at Storm's End) and Tarly made sure in bloody and brutal fashion that order would be maintained when he returned to Bitterbridge.

Though you also have to consider what their goals are, rebelling against your overlord and declaring sovereignty aren't always the same thing. Gaining justice for real or imagined abuses perpetrated by feudal overlords and royalty is a beat many lords will dance to and Loras is a popular and well loved knight. If Mace doesn't declare independence from the Iron Throne then the Reach for the most part may well back him if he simply intends to fight the Iron Throne until they give generous terms and recompense. 

Regardless Renly probably still marries Marg and declares himself king anyway, it's not like he's going to take the murder of Loras sitting down. 

[cpg2016]

On 7/27/2017 at 2:16 AM, Trigger Warning said:

Gaining justice for real or imagined abuses perpetrated by feudal overlords and royalty is a beat many lords will dance to

The Tyrells already let this ship sail when they fought for Aerys.  Which again, in my headcanon, is because their authority is so shaky that they need to be the most loyal, the best vassals, so that they get the commensurate rewards and thus prop up their overlordship.

On 7/27/2017 at 2:16 AM, Trigger Warning said:

Don't know if House Tyrell has enough control over the Reach to rebel without the Reach tearing itself apart

We can be fairly sure they don't.  The Reach is one of those regions that notoriously splits in almost every conflict, and this is almost certainly due to the Tyrell's lack of prestige.  All the Blackfyre Rebellions, the Dance, etc.  Even the Golden Company still thinks they have "friends in the Reach".

[Vaegon the dragonless]

On 25/07/2017 at 8:47 PM, cpg2016 said:

Well who knows where I could have got that idea!  Unless, of course, it's literally from the text itself.

You Starks were kings once, the Arryns and the Lannisters as well, and even the Baratheons through the female line, but the Tyrells were no more than stewards until Aegon the Dragon came along and cooked the rightful King of the Reach on the Field of Fire. If truth be told, even our claim to Highgarden is a bit dodgy, just as those dreadful Florents are always whining. 

The Tyrells are upstarts, and they know it.  Part of the fantasy aspect of Westeros is family lines and noble houses that stretch back millennia - the three centuries of Targaryen rule are a blink of an eye to them, and there is no question the Tyrells have less control over their bannermen that your average Lord Paramount, which is why the Reach is often more divided than the other kingdoms when it comes to civil strife.

Get this straight: every single Lord Paramount has extensive ties with their bannermen.  It's the nature of the beast.  The difference is that the Lannisters, Arryns, and Starks are Houses with thousands of years of authority behind them.  The Baratheons are a continuation of the Durrandons through the female line.  The Martells don't have the same history as some other houses, but have been kings for a thousand years; even that isn't enough to lessen the pretensions of their stronger bannermen, like the Yronwoods ("the Bloodroyals").

Marriage alliances mean something, but in a continent with 8,000 years of more-or-less traceable history, everyone is related to everyone.

Well, the Florents did, so... you've got that.

But look beyond the one single instance you've quoted.  In the Blackfyre Rebellions (and in fAegon's upcoming invasion), the Reach was bitterly divided.  In the Dance, the Reach was bitterly divided, with the Tyrells unable to maintain any control and sitting out the fight as a result.  In most major wars on Westeros, the Reach splits... because the Tyrells don't have the authority to compel their vassals to obedience, and those vassals often see an opportunity to gain control of Highgarden by supporting one side or another.  Whereas, for example, it's an accepted fact that the Starks will rule in Winterfell; Ramsay can't be given the castle, he has to go through the farce of marrying Jeyne/Arya to lay claim to it.

Just like the Riverlands wich are also controlled by a house with no history of kingship. The Reach and the Riverlands are always more divided than the rest when it comes to the big civil wars and it makes sense when most of the bannermen have a better claim than the ovelord (brackens, blackwood, Vance even Mooton for the Riverland and Rowan, Florent, Hightower, Oakheart and a few others for the Reach.)

[Graydon Hicks]

also, the tyrells are a young house, even compared to the tullys. the tullys are a first men family that stretches all the way bak to the age of heroes. they did convert to the Seven after the andal invasion, and they likely werent a very large and powerful house before the conquests, but they do have the age. the riverlands are just mixed in ethnicity, and so often used and the main battlefield for all the cross province wars, that they simply havent had the length of time needed to build that shared cultural identity that is needed to truly unify them in the same way as the north or the westerlands.

the tyrells are a relatively young andal house that sprouted after the invasion from an andal knight who earned the favor of king gwayne gardner the 5th. and it was several generations after that likely a few centuries at least, before the gardners gave a princess of the house to wed ser robert tyrell. there were nine more marriages between the houses over the centuries before the field of flames and the conquest.