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why cersie hates the starks


Graydon Hicks

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we see how much contempt cersie hold for the starks, more than her father, or either brother holds for them, ive been thinking on why. i dont think it the normal derision that the andals south of the neck hold for the first men of the north. it seems more personal. if i had to guess,i would say it has to do with lyanna and rhaegar, the fact that when rhaegar ran off with a woman and cheated on elia martell, he chose lyanna, instead of cersie. she would most definetly see that as an insult in her mind, that she lost out as a choice of mistress for the prince to this barbarian wild woman from the northern wastes.

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2 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

we see how much contempt cersie hold for the starks, more than her father, or either brother holds for them, ive been thinking on why. i dont think it the normal derision that the andals south of the neck hold for the first men of the north. it seems more personal. if i had to guess,i would say it has to do with lyanna and rhaegar, the fact that when rhaegar ran off with a woman and cheated on elia martell, he chose lyanna, instead of cersie. she would most definetly see that as an insult in her mind, that she lost out as a choice of mistress for the prince to this barbarian wild woman from the northern wastes.

I think she must hate Lyanna a lot, more than any other character she has hated/already hates. Because Lyanna was someone she could never compete to. Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna (as either a mistress or a second wife, we don't know) for all the realm to see. In Cersei's mind, Rhaegar could have chosen her as she would have been way more prettier than the northern Lyanna Stark. She even quotes in the books that if Rhaegar had married her instead of Elia, he "would never have looked twice at the wolf girl." So when Lyanna is dead, she must have felt relieved  that her first/main rival was gone, and she could be Robert's queen. She reckoned Robert would fall in love her, but even that never happened at he whispered 'Lyanna' on the first night. Her hatred for Lyanna just grows even more, as Lyanna became the ghost in her marriage. 

Its interesting to see that she never shows any hatred/jealousy for Elia, who was Rhaegar's wife. Instead, she shows this for Lyanna, who was the one Rhaegar 'chose' amongst all the women in Westeros. 

Her hatred for Starks probably grew from what it was to even more as she seems to hate and distrust Ned when he's hand of the King. And Cersei would have hated Sansa as at first, she would have been the younger more beautiful queen. 

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By what right does the wolf judge the lion

Who knows how things might have turned out of Ned and his van had not reached KL so quickly, Tywin might have been crowned king, and once he arrived he passed judgment on Tywin for sacking the city, Jamie for being an oathbraker and their knights for the brutal killing of the royal family .

No a great start to the relationship.

Robert no doubt had a few storys to tell about saint Ned all building up resentment over the years

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true, and if there is one that the lannisters have more of than gold, its pride. they do seem to think of themselves as superior to every other house in the realm, including their fellow LP. look at how cersie has made sure her house sigil  and colors are incorporated into those of the royal house baratheon, when, even when the targ kings married outside the line, the royal crest was always that of the king alone. or how in all the other families, when the lady marries into the family, she becomes of that family, and takes its symbols for her own? cat is a good example. after marrying eddard, she became lady stark, her house became house stark, and her sigil became the direwolf. but cersie is referred to as lady lannister, not baratheon. she never touches the stag of baratheon, and all of her authority remains with the lannsiters she brought with her to KL.

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Cersei takes every slight to heart, real or perceived. Why does she hate anyone as much as she does? She's to the point where she's basically having people brutally killed for being annoying. Tywin and Jaime aren't as hateful because they're sane. 

I don't think she ever even met Lyanna, did she? I suppose they were probably both at the tournament at Harrenhal (where Lyanna was picked over her for Queen of Beauty, though no fault of her own that we know of) but I don't think we have evidence they ever spoke. Yet Cersei believes Lyanna is responsible for so much of the shit in her life. 

And while we're on the topic, while I totally get why Cersei was mad Robert called her Lyanna, to be totally fair, the man did just topple a dynasty over this girl. If ever there was a time to forgive drunken whispers, would it not be that case? Not for Cersei obviously though. 

38 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Because Lyanna was someone she could never compete to.

I never realized until I just looked it up, but Lyanna and Cersei are (would be) the same age, both born in 266. So in the eyes of nobility, they would be an easy comparison to make. Only daughters of LPs, beautiful but opposite (black v blonde, wild v regal), etc BUT I'm sure Cersei would take this kind of thing to heart. And despite all her self-worth and despite being a Lannister, Cersei seems to lose at every turn. Even in death Lyanna becomes a romanticized symbol.

Knowing her, I'd imagine she would likely take the throne room confrontation between Ned and Jaime a lot harder than Jaime did. 

And once they met up in Winterfell it was one slight after another in Cersei's eyes. Bran snooping, Robert visiting Lyannas bones, Cersei's son being promised to a Wolf Girl (doesn't look like Lyanna but still), the wolf biting Joffrey, Ned's continued snooping and and general do-goodery, Catelyn seizing Tyrion, Jaime's capture and so on and so forth. Add in her paranoid and general psycho bitchiness and you have a very hateful woman. 

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1 hour ago, WeKnowNothing said:

I think she must hate Lyanna a lot, more than any other character she has hated/already hates. Because Lyanna was someone she could never compete to. Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna (as either a mistress or a second wife, we don't know) for all the realm to see. In Cersei's mind, Rhaegar could have chosen her as she would have been way more prettier than the northern Lyanna Stark. She even quotes in the books that if Rhaegar had married her instead of Elia, he "would never have looked twice at the wolf girl." So when Lyanna is dead, she must have felt relieved  that her first/main rival was gone, and she could be Robert's queen. She reckoned Robert would fall in love her, but even that never happened at he whispered 'Lyanna' on the first night. Her hatred for Lyanna just grows even more, as Lyanna became the ghost in her marriage. 

Its interesting to see that she never shows any hatred/jealousy for Elia, who was Rhaegar's wife. Instead, she shows this for Lyanna, who was the one Rhaegar 'chose' amongst all the women in Westeros. 

Her hatred for Starks probably grew from what it was to even more as she seems to hate and distrust Ned when he's hand of the King. And Cersei would have hated Sansa as at first, she would have been the younger more beautiful queen. 

Perhaps Cersei felt a small amount of pity for Elia and feared the same for her children if Robert were to find out about Cersei's relationship with Jaime. 

"Elia Martell! I killed her children. Then I raped her. Then I smashed her head, IN LIKE THIS!"

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Specifically, Cersei hates Sansa, who she believes poisoned Joffrey, and betrayed the "kindness" she showed her.  She also wanted Arya punished for the hurt suffered by Joffrey.

Other than that, I don't think she hates the Starks especially, more than she hates any other human beings.  Her thoughts indicate contempt, rather than hatred, for Catelyn, and she did intend to spare Ned's life.

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could those feelings simply be a lesser echo of her hate of lyanna? think about her narcissism, how she perceives slights against her person. rhaegar could have run off with anyone when he cheated on elia, yet he chose lyanna, this wild uncultured woman from the wastelands of the north (as she would have perceived lyanna) instead of herself, the golden beautiful lioness of the rock, of much better breeding (phhtttp, yeah right, like your house is even half as old as the starks) who would have been a perfect match for the silver prince. think who that must have struck at her pride. it would have been the ultimate insult to her then. its not just that rhaegar married a dornish slut instead of her, as their fathers had origianlly invisioned, before aeyrs had his fit of erratic behavior, but when he did leave elia, he didnt leave elia for cersie, he left his wife for a northern barbarian.

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I agree that Cersei hated Lyanna Stark for causing all the mess and destroying her chances to marry Raeghar in case if Elia dies. I don't remember if it was directly mentioned in the books but apparently Tywin didn't promise Cersei to anyone, b/c he waited for Elia to die. Eventually Lyanna became a ghost haunting her marriage with Robert.

1 hour ago, Lord Vance II said:

And once they met up in Winterfell it was one slight after another in Cersei's eyes. Bran snooping, Robert visiting Lyannas bones, Cersei's son being promised to a Wolf Girl (doesn't look like Lyanna but still), the wolf biting Joffrey, Ned's continued snooping and and general do-goodery, Catelyn seizing Tyrion, Jaime's capture and so on and so forth. Add in her paranoid and general psycho bitchiness and you have a very hateful woman. 

:agree: Besides that I think that Cersei's hate towards her husband also included his friends at some degree. Not the she initially hated Ned, but distrusted him and later he started snooping.

As for Elia, she had the worst fate ever, there was zero reason for Cersei to be jealous of her or dislike her. Elia's marriage with Raeghar was arranged (he didn't choose her like he chose Lyanna), she was sicky (in opposite to strong and healthy CerseI), her hubby left her for another woman and she died a horrible death, witnessing murder of her kids.

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2 minutes ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I agree that Cersei hated Lyanna Stark for causing all the mess and destroying her chances to marry Raeghar in case if Elia dies. I don't remember if it was directly mentioned in the books but apparently Tywin didn't promise Cersei to anyone, b/c he waited for Elia to die. Eventually Lyanna became a ghost haunting her marriage with Robert.

actually, i think it was mentioned in the world book.

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Does anyone else think that Cersei was once in love with Ned Stark? And he rejected her?

There was that moment after the Rebellion when Ned took his army into King's Landing, and intimidated Jaime off the throne just by looking at him. People were thinking Ned would be king. Cersei loves power, loves it - I can't imagine she felt quite the same about Jaime after that.

And there's that quote of her's: the king I'd thought to marry would have laid a wolfskin on my bed before sunset. (approx). Well yeah, the lady of King Stark would have wolfskins to mark her status, lots of them.

And Ned - he's very touchy about Cersei, almost as bad as about 'Jon's mother'. Embarrassed?

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Well when you think about it the Starks show very little respect towards Cersei and her family. The only Stark that treats Cersei and her children like the royalty they are is Sansa. Robb wants to beat up on Joffrey in the training yard. Arya sicced her Direwolf on poor Joff. Bran spies on Cersei when she finally gets some alone time with Jamie. Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion and took him to her crazy sister's place. Ned disrespected Tywin and Jamie after the rebellion.

The Starks have given Cersei and the Lannisters many reasons to not trust or like them, even before the wars start. At the end of the day the Lannisters ran King's Landing and the Starks never gave them their proper respect.

Could you imagine what would happen if Arya did what she did to Joffrey to a Targaryen Crown Prince instead? Fire and Blood. Spikes...heads, walls, the whole nine. 

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Perhaps Cersei felt a small amount of pity for Elia and feared the same for her children if Robert were to find out about Cersei's relationship with Jaime. 

"Elia Martell! I killed her children. Then I raped her. Then I smashed her head, IN LIKE THIS!"

I don't mean pity for Elia for having such a horrible death - I meant Cersei does NOT feel any hatred/jealousy towards Elia for having Rhaegar. Instead she is shown to feel jealous of Lyanna who Rhaegar was said to "choose." 

2 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

could those feelings simply be a lesser echo of her hate of lyanna? think about her narcissism, how she perceives slights against her person. rhaegar could have run off with anyone when he cheated on elia, yet he chose lyanna, this wild uncultured woman from the wastelands of the north (as she would have perceived lyanna) instead of herself, the golden beautiful lioness of the rock, of much better breeding (phhtttp, yeah right, like your house is even half as old as the starks) who would have been a perfect match for the silver prince. think who that must have struck at her pride. it would have been the ultimate insult to her then. its not just that rhaegar married a dornish slut instead of her, as their fathers had origianlly invisioned, before aeyrs had his fit of erratic behavior, but when he did leave elia, he didnt leave elia for cersie, he left his wife for a northern barbarian.

Exactly. Cersei was such a narcisst that she believed she was better than Elia (who was a princess, unlike Cersei) and Lyanna (who comes from a much older house than Cersei). Even because of this, she reckoned she was more intelligent, more beautiful than these two women that Rhaegar was connected with. But when Rhaegar was made to marry Elia, she was upset because now she wasn't the one to marry the silver prince. But atleast Cersei (and Tywin) still felt like she had a chance of being Rhaegar's wife one day, as Elia was sickly and she had high chances of dying in childbirth. But even then, Cersei had a much higher rival than Elia - and that was Lyanna, as she was the one who Rhaegar was said to have loved, instead of Elia. So instead, Cersei vents anger on a dead Lyanna because she was the one who Rhaegar loved and Lyanna also 'ruined' Cersei's life (in her eyes) by being chosen by Rhaegar and being an obsession of Robert.

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Specifically, Cersei hates Sansa, who she believes poisoned Joffrey, and betrayed the "kindness" she showed her.  She also wanted Arya punished for the hurt suffered by Joffrey.

Other than that, I don't think she hates the Starks especially, more than she hates any other human beings.  Her thoughts indicate contempt, rather than hatred, for Catelyn, and she did intend to spare Ned's life.

Agreed. I don't think she harbors more contempt for them as a family, than she does for anyone else. I doubt she ever thought of them of more than obstacles fate put in her way.

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15 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Agreed. I don't think she harbors more contempt for them as a family, than she does for anyone else. I doubt she ever thought of them of more than obstacles fate put in her way.

Surprised she thought of Sansa as good enough for Joffrey.

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2 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Well when you think about it the Starks show very little respect towards Cersei and her family. The only Stark that treats Cersei and her children like the royalty they are is Sansa. Robb wants to beat up on Joffrey in the training yard. Arya sicced her Direwolf on poor Joff. Bran spies on Cersei when she finally gets some alone time with Jamie. Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion and took him to her crazy sister's place. Ned disrespected Tywin and Jamie after the rebellion.

The Starks have given Cersei and the Lannisters many reasons to not trust or like them, even before the wars start. At the end of the day the Lannisters ran King's Landing and the Starks never gave them their proper respect.

Could you imagine what would happen if Arya did what she did to Joffrey to a Targaryen Crown Prince instead? Fire and Blood. Spikes...heads, walls, the whole nine. 

Joffrey was the one who wanted to fight with actual steel, not Robb. Arya did not "sic" Nymeria on Joffrey, Joffrey attacked Arya with an actual sword and the direwolf defended her. 

So Cersei committing a sin against the gods in the home of the Starks is totally respectful, right?

I don't think Cersei was particularly torn up about Tyrion being kidnapped, either. 

And the Lannisters had so much respect for the ruling Baratheons that they conspired to murder the king. 

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20 minutes ago, Brannis the Mannis said:

Joffrey was the one who wanted to fight with actual steel, not Robb

Well most grown men spar with live steel. So Joffrey wanting to isn't really a threat or insult to Robb. He simply wanted to spar the way men do. Robb was the one who took it as an insult and got upset and wanted to hurt Joff. Joff is the Crown Prince and Robb's future King, Robb should have never back talked him, he was out of place to do so.

25 minutes ago, Brannis the Mannis said:

Arya did not "sic" Nymeria on Joffrey, Joffrey attacked Arya with an actual sword and the direwolf defended her. 

Well that's not what Sansa and Joffrey told Cersei, Bob, Ned and everyone else. It was Sansa's and Joff's word against Arya's. The King and Queen believed Sansa as she was seen as an objective party.

7 minutes ago, Brannis the Mannis said:

So Cersei committing a sin against the gods in the home of the Starks is totally respectful, right?

I don't think Cersei really cared much. She feels it's her right to feel "whole" and bedding her twin is the only way to accomplish that. She's the Queen the Starks are her subjects. She would throw Old Nan in a pile of horse poop if she felt like it.

9 minutes ago, Brannis the Mannis said:

I don't think Cersei was particularly torn up about Tyrion being kidnapped, either. 

It's still a slight against her and her family. Like Tywin said, Tyrion is a Lannister and kidnapping him is an insult and threat to other Lannisters. If someone can kidnap Tyrion without reprisal it would set a dangerous precedent for other Lannisters including Cersei.

31 minutes ago, Brannis the Mannis said:

And the Lannisters had so much respect for the ruling Baratheons that they conspired to murder the king. 

Well Ned didn't give Cersei much of a choice. If Robert came back alive and Ned told him his suspicions Cersei and her kids would be in serious danger.

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17 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Well most grown men spar with live steel. So Joffrey wanting to isn't really a threat or insult to Robb. He simply wanted to spar the way men do. Robb was the one who took it as an insult and got upset and wanted to hurt Joff. Joff is the Crown Prince and Robb's future King, Robb should have never back talked him, he was out of place to do so.

Joffrey literally insults Robb in the next few paragraphs. He calls him a coward and a child, go back and read the passage if you don't believe me. This isn't the Starks being disrespectful, this is Joffrey being a cunt.

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Well that's not what Sansa and Joffrey told Cersei, Bob, Ned and everyone else. It was Sansa's and Joff's word against Arya's. The King and Queen believed Sansa as she was seen as an objective party.

So you admit that this was another case of Joffrey simply being a cunt, rather than Stark disrespect. 

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I don't think Cersei really cared much. She feels it's her right to feel "whole" and bedding her twin is the only way to accomplish that. She's the Queen the Starks are her subjects. She would throw Old Nan in a pile of horse poop if she felt like it.

Just because you're the Queen/King doesn't mean you get to disrespect everyone around in every way possible. Look at what happened to Aerys. 

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If someone can kidnap Tyrion without reprisal it would set a dangerous precedent for other Lannisters including Cersei

You mean like how the Lannisters tried to kill Bran without reprisal?

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Well Ned didn't give Cersei much of a choice. If Robert came back alive and Ned told him his suspicions Cersei and her kids would be in serious danger.

Ned gave Cersei a very merciful choice, considering the circumstances. 

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Surprised she thought of Sansa as good enough for Joffrey.

Nobody was good enough for Joffrey. It was Robert's decision. But in terms of age and status, it would have been either her or Margaery all along.

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9 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Nobody was good enough for Joffrey. It was Robert's decision. But in terms of age and status, it would have been either her or Margaery all along.

Then why didn't Robert try between Joffrey and Margaery? Of course, when one thinks about it, Cersei would put her foot down on anyone who might fulfill the "younger and more beautiful Queen" part of the prophecy. At least Margaery has her family to back her up, Sansa had none of that while the Kingsguard beat her like a practice dummy (which I admit she was).

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