Stormking902 Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Stannis controls the royal fleet which basically leaves the Lannisters without any sort of navy besides maybe 10 or 15 warships max in Lannisport untill the Tyrells join them later on in the story. Wouldnt it make sense to reach out to Balon and the Ironborn for an alliance? Its basically a win win for Stannis and Balon since Balon wants the IB independance and he wants to be able to reave like the old days, Stannis can offer Balon the independance he wants and also a big juicy steak to reave in the form of Lannisport and the best part for the IB is Lannisport is easy pickins at the moment. The only thing Stannis loses in this situation is the Iron Islands and so what???? They dont produce enough goods that the taxs they pay would make Stannis wealthy and they provide nothing else accept possible ships for war but as we know just because the Iron Born are part of the 7k doesnt mean they will come when you call. With Lannisport taken this would force Tywin to retreat west and deal with the Iron Born while Stannis focuses on the Crownlands and lets Robb and his men deal with the Lannisters even more in the Riverlands since when Tywin retreats West this would be a perfect opportunity to advance West like Robb originally wanted to do which would leave Tywin in a very bad spot and one the Tyrells would refuse to join the Lannisters in. Stannis offers Mace Tyrell two council positions for the Reach and Bobs your uncle Iron Throne secured...... So a win win for Stannis and Balon and no offer of an alliance to speak of sounds a bit of a plot hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 17 minutes ago, Stormking902 said: Stannis controls the royal fleet which basically leaves the Lannisters without any sort of navy besides maybe 10 or 15 warships max in Lannisport untill the Tyrells join them later on in the story. Wouldnt it make sense to reach out to Balon and the Ironborn for an alliance? Its basically a win win for Stannis and Balon since Balon wants the IB independance and he wants to be able to reave like the old days, Stannis can offer Balon the independance he wants and also a big juicy steak to reave in the form of Lannisport How is that any different from what Robb offered? And why does Balon need an alliance to do this? 17 minutes ago, Stormking902 said: So a win win for Stannis and Balon and no offer of an alliance to speak of sounds a bit of a plot hole. I'm sorry but this is not a plot hole. Stannis' character is not complicated. Him offering this kind of deal would be a plot hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormking902 Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said: How is that any different from what Robb offered? And why does Balon need an alliance to do this? I'm sorry but this is not a plot hole. Stannis' character is not complicated. Him offering this kind of deal would be a plot hole. Stannis is king of Westeros not the North like Robb..... Robb cant offer Balon peace after the Iron Born independance Stannis can since like I said it would be Stannis kingdom so no attacking the Iron born when everythinf settles down. Your statement made no sense what so ever.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThreeEyedCow Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 This is a silly topic. 1. The last time Balon met Stannis was when Stannis smashed Victarions fleet and aided Robert and co in the war to prevent Balons rebellion. So he's not going to be interested in any alliance. 2. Stannis sees himself as the one true king. There are no other Kings, as far as he's concerned so again, no alliance. 3. Rob Stark tried to make this alliance. He found out the hard way that the IB have a deep, deep well of hatred toward the 'Greenlanders'. What you are proposing makes no sense and the fact you have the gall name it a plot hole is very irritating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormking902 Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 1 minute ago, TheThreeEyedCow said: This is a silly topic. 1. The last time Balon met Stannis was when Stannis smashed Victarions fleet and aided Robert and co in the war to prevent Balons rebellion. So he's not going to be interested in any alliance. 2. Stannis sees himself as the one true king. There are no other Kings, as far as he's concerned so again, no alliance. 3. Rob Stark tried to make this alliance. He found out the hard way that the IB have a deep, deep well of hatred toward the 'Greenlanders'. What you are proposing makes no sense and the fact you have the gall name it a plot hole is very irritating. Again Robb isnt king of Westeros............... And so what Stannis attacked the Iron Born in the past they started it, Stannis was doing his duty there was no hatred behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThreeEyedCow Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, Stormking902 said: Again Robb isnt king of Westeros............... And so what Stannis attacked the Iron Born in the past they started it, Stannis was doing his duty there was no hatred behind it. Neither was Stannis.... I think you need to read the book again. Balon doesn't care who's king. Balon was always waiting for the throne to become weak so he could return to the 'old way' and he/they pick the weakest targets. Balon doesn't want/need an alliance with anyone. Stannis didn't want an alliance, he simply will not abide a rival king. They both fight for different reasons. Stannis goes as far to name Balon 'usurper' along with Rob and Joff. Neither of these men are reasonable. They want it their way and they want subjects and not friends. Nations IRL despise one another over feuds that happened years, decades even centuries ago. Stannis is a big part of the reason Balon had to hand his son over to 'Greenlanders' who made him soft and not Iron Born. The Iron throne smashed his fleet, killed one son and took the other. There is no love between them. There is no shared motive. There is no compatibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormking902 Posted July 20, 2017 Author Share Posted July 20, 2017 19 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said: Neither was Stannis.... I think you need to read the book again. Balon doesn't care who's king. Balon was always waiting for the throne to become weak so he could return to the 'old way' and he/they pick the weakest targets. Balon doesn't want/need an alliance with anyone. Stannis didn't want an alliance, he simply will not abide a rival king. They both fight for different reasons. Stannis goes as far to name Balon 'usurper' along with Rob and Joff. Neither of these men are reasonable. They want it their way and they want subjects and not friends. Nations IRL despise one another over feuds that happened years, decades even centuries ago. Stannis is a big part of the reason Balon had to hand his son over to 'Greenlanders' who made him soft and not Iron Born. The Iron throne smashed his fleet, killed one son and took the other. There is no love between them. There is no shared motive. There is no compatibility. You obviously do not understand the differences between what Robb offers and what Stannis offers so ill explain..... Robb offers Balon nothing because after the war of the 5 kings somebody has to be king it doesnt matter who it is and once the armys of Westeros has replenished themselves they will be demanding the Iron Born submit to the Iron Throne or else which will end with the Iron Born being defeated AGAIN. Stannis is KING so if he wins the throne and the war he isnt going to demand the Iron Born bend the knee because he made a deal with Balon for there indepenance and thus the Iron Born stay independent forever as you can see this is a huge difference. I do how ever agree that its not in Stannis character to make a deal with Balon because Stannis wants to be the one king but my question was would it have made a huge difference if Stannis did offer Balon an alliance......you need to read to acheive im not debating whether or not its within Stannis character to do so everyone and there mother knows it is not....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GyantSpyder Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Stormking902 said: Stannis is KING so if he wins the throne If Stannis hasn't won the throne, he's not KING yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Tristan Flowers Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 What happened to 'words are wind'? And what about this idea of a formal 'alliance' that is entirely absent from the book? Like two rival kings make some kind of deal and just play on the same team? The only actual alliances we ever see are through marriage and never between two actual kings. When Balon crowned himself, he made himself a mortal enemy of Stannis, it´s as simple as that. Balon would never trust Stannis and Balon wanted land, too. It was kind of a big deal for the ironborn to get land to build new castles on, for their spare sons. Stannis would never accept that. In fact, he would never accept an independet ironborn king and Balon should definately be aware of that. On the other hand, NO ONE in their right mind would ever trust Balon Greyjoy. He would stab you in the back as soon as he sees fit. Honestly, this whole thing seems like a pointless endeavour. Both of them would rightfully get to the conclusion that they´re better off on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpg2016 Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 2 hours ago, Stormking902 said: Robb offers Balon nothing because after the war of the 5 kings somebody has to be king it doesnt matter who it is and once the armys of Westeros has replenished themselves they will be demanding the Iron Born submit to the Iron Throne or else which will end with the Iron Born being defeated AGAIN. Robb offers Balon nothing because Balon is going to attack Robb no matter what. Robb offers Balon a great deal - what he is proposing is essentially the breakup of the Seven Kingdoms, which gives Balon the ability to go back to Old Way. Unfortunately, Balon is by far the dumbest character in the series, and doesn't take the offer. 2 hours ago, Stormking902 said: Stannis is KING so if he wins the throne and the war he isnt going to demand the Iron Born bend the knee because he made a deal with Balon for there indepenance and thus the Iron Born stay independent forever as you can see this is a huge difference. You are fundamentally misunderstanding Stannis' character. He is a strict legalist. The Iron Throne, and all of its attendant rights and responsibilities, are his because that is the law. To allow Balon to break away is to say his kingdom isn't whole, and that won't sit with him. Look, Balon is a dumbass. I mean, he shits on Robb's offer, attacks the North, and THEN offers and alliance to Tywin. As in, he throws away his only leverage by attacking (and being willing to sacrifice his son to do it, no less) without getting a commitment of an alliance. This isn't difficult. Stannis doesn't offer Balon an alliance for the same reason he doesn't with anyone else; in his mind, he's the heir, and all these people owe him their loyalty. There isn't a question of trading privileges for it; just as he's unswerving in his loyalty to Robert, despite slights and insults, so is homage owed to him. Plus, the second he lets one of the Seven Kingdoms declare independence, he loses them all. The only thing keeping Westeros united is sheer inertia. If the Iron Islands go, despite being the least valuable, he'll lose everything else, because the whole fiction of "one land, one people" will be gone. Dorne, the North, the Vale... these places are only part of the Seven Kingdoms because only the combined might of the other six can crack them (that, or dragons). Once it becomes obviious that the Iron Throne only compels the loyalty of a few kingdoms, everyone will split. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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