Did Jaime and Barristan question...

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

It is weird that Jaime and Barristan knows nothing about Lyanna's pregnancy. Did Jaime and Barristan question why three members of Kingsguard were sent to Dorne during Robert's Rebellion? Especially Barristan felt guilty for  Aerys' murder. He should try to find out why Lyanna was more important for Kingsguard than Aerys. But we didn't get any clues in his POVs.

[cpg2016]

1 hour ago, Grazdan zo Azer said:

It is weird that Jaime and Barristan knows nothing about Lyanna's pregnancy. Did Jaime and Barristan question why three members of Kingsguard were sent to Dorne during Robert's Rebellion? Especially Barristan felt guilty for  Aerys' murder. He should try to find out why Lyanna was more important for Kingsguard than Aerys. But we didn't get any clues in his POVs.

Barristan doesn't feel guilt for Aerys' murder.  Nor does Jaime.

And why should they know anything about Lyanna?  Even if they are aware that Hightower, Whent, and Dayne are guarding her (and not on some other mission), why should they suspect anything other than that Rhaegar wants his favorite rape victim kept under guard?  I mean, these guys have been sitting around for years watching Aerys II horribly mutilate and rape his wife, watching him burn various innocent people alive - why do you think they're drawing the line here?

Why would they know she's pregnant?  Rhaegar kidnaps her, imprisons her in the Tower of Joy, and rapes her til she's pregnant - the only people who could possibly know any of this are Rhaegar, who isn't telling, the Kingsguard, who die before they can pass on word, Lyanna, who is imprisoned and then dies, and Wylla the maid, who I would be money is going to spill the beans to Balon Swann (this is where the Darkstar plot is leading - to Starfall).  This isn't the modern world where information is a phone call, or even a postal stamp, away.  Barristan is busy leading armies, and Jaime is stuck in the Red Keep - they have literally no way of knowing except what Rhaegar chooses to share.

And lets assume they DO find out.  So what?  Lyanna was pregnant, with Rhaegar's child naturally, so of course he wants them protected with Kingsguard knights, since her brother and betrothed will certainly try and send someone for her.  As far as anyone knows, Lyanna died, and even if she died in childbirth, it wouldn't be unusual for that child to die as well.

[Makk]

We are lacking information around this subject.

Barristan didn't believe he was raping Lyanna. Barristan has an exceptionally high, although somewhat misplaced, opinion of honour. He thinks of Rhaegar fondly, he wouldn't do so if he believed all the rumours. And he probably didn't even believe Rhaegar would "take Lyanna's virtue" but rather see it as some romantic fairy tale where they would sit around reading poetry to each other. In short Barristan isn't the sharpest tack in the draw and would be one of the least likely people to figure this out. He probably didn't know exactly where Rhaegar went or what he was doing. He may have secretly wanted to join "Rhaegars rebellion" but honour made him serve the mad king. One of Barristan's most obvious traits is to not ask any questions. 

As for Jaime, he was constantly kept near Aerys and had a lot of other things on his mind. I'm not sure how much he knew about what Rhaegar was doing.

I would put more expectation on people like Varys, Littlefinger, Catelyn, or Doran to figure out what the hell was going on.

 

[zandru]

Also, you're going by Robert Baratheon's story. The war hammer guy could never admit to anyone, least of all to himself, that a woman might dread marrying him so much, she'd rather elope with a more desireable man. "Rape" by Rhaegar was never a part of it.

[Amris]

The OP is a valid question.

It indeed seems a little strange for a crown prince in nothing less than a war for survival to leave his three bodyguards (who also happen to be his close friends and among the best fighters in the realm) behind to guard some tower far behind the front lines. One would think lesser men at arms would be sufficient for the task.

However aside from a pregnancy there are other potential explanations for this behavior. And because there are Barristan and Jaime did not necessarily have to suspect a pregnancy of Lyanna.

Possible explanation 1: due to the break-out of war Lyanna had suddenly become an extremely valuable hostage against the north. And aside from his own bodyguards Rhaegar did not have anyone trustworthy enough within his reach down there in Dorne. He'd rather not risk putting such a valuable hostage in the hands of soldiers he was not 110% sure he could trust.

Possible explanation 2: Rhaegar was so infatuated with Lyanna that he was not taking any risks where her safety was concerned. And putting his own safety second (by giving her his own bodyguards) seemed just the thing to do. Chivalry and all that.

 

 

 

[Ygrain]

12 hours ago, Grazdan zo Azer said:

He should try to find out why Lyanna was more important for Kingsguard than Aerys.

Why should he? He makes it clear that if he was ordered to guard Hizdahr, he would have to. So, if the three KG were ordered to guard Lyanna, they had to. Rhaegar went into quite some length to get her, so wanting to ensure her safety is not really surprising.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think it is perfectly possible that Jaime and or Barristan know more about Rhaegar and Lyanna than has been let on. But I doubt either has the full picture. Certainly, Barristans' attitude towards Rhaegar and words that he loved his lady Lyanna imply he did not view the Prince as a Kidnapper nor a rapist. "His" Lady Lyanna might imply they were a proper couple, even married. "His" is a term of ownership and in Westeros, a man owns his wife in much the same way historically men did in our own world.  People often wording which implies ownership to refer to people who have significant familial, and relationship ties.  "Your lass was here earlier." "where's your lad tonight."  "I saw your Bertie earlier"  etc.  So His lady seems rather likely to refer to the two of them being in an intimate relationship and maybe even marriage. So Barristan knows something! he seems to know Rhaegar loved her, and who could have told him that? Don't forget Barristan rode to the Trident with Rhaegar presumably the two of them did not do so in silence? 

And we know Jaime and Rhaegar spoke upon his return to KL, as we have Jaime's memories of being charged with keeping Elia and the children safe. He has not thus far revealed any memories pertaining to Lyanna but this could very easily be because the author is not ready yet to reveal anything of that nature. It can not be denied that the two men had oportunity to be told things by Rhaegar. And that Barristan knowing he loved her implies he at least revealed that much. 

I suspect though that Daenerys herself might know more than we have thus far heard. She waited all the way to ADWD to reveal that she knows Rhaegar carried His (there's that term of ownership again) Northern Girl off at sword point. because he truly loved her. As she is travelling to her own unwanted wedding to Hizdahr.  And she must have heard this tale from Viserys who at 8 years old I doubt was his brother's confidant upon his return to KL. So I suggest he spoke with his mother Rhaella. Whom he has no reason at all to hide a single thing from. Who then told her son the romantic story of his brother's love and what not whilst they held up on Dragonstone for 9 months.  Rhaella died shortly after giving birth to Dany, but Viserys seems to have recounted the story to her, so whatever else Rhaegar told their mother she likely knows too. She might know if they were married, and she might know that Lyanna was with child. But she hasn't thought about that because the author is not ready to reveal it. If she knows Lyanna is dead she might assume the child died with her, or that Robert would have murdered it? She thinks she is the last Targaryen so she must assume this if she knows anything of the pregnancy. 

Likewise, if Barristan knows Lyanna was with child he might assume the child died with her, he was not at WF note. So he never saw Jon Snow. And he has no reason to disbelieve Ned Stark about fathering a bastard. After all, he would not be unusual in having done so.  He might have wondered at the time, but as has been pointed out he isn't a big thinker. And he values his post as KG he would not do well to sow distrust between Robert and Ned when he himself had only just been pardoned for being a Targaryen loyalist. 

 

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Why should he? He makes it clear that if he was ordered to guard Hizdahr, he would have to. So, if the three KG were ordered to guard Lyanna, they had to. Rhaegar went into quite some length to get her, so wanting to ensure her safety is not really surprising.

Hizdahr is Dany's husband. Lyanna is Rhaegar's lover. There is a difference. 

If Dany ordered Grey Worm, Daario Naharis and Strong Belwas to guard Hizdahr what would Barristan think of it?

We are talking about three members of Kingsguard, not one.

 

[TMIFairy]

An order is an order.

If Barristan was ordered to guard Aerys' or Daenerys' pet poodle, then guard it he must, without question.

His KG oath of obedience trumps his knightly vows.

And any pretence to decency or common sense too.

- "Guard Fifi!"

- "With my life, Your Grace!"

 

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, Grazdan zo Azer said:

Hizdahr is Dany's husband. Lyanna is Rhaegar's lover. There is a difference. 

If Dany ordered Grey Worm, Daario Naharis and Strong Belwas to guard Hizdahr what would Barristan think of it?

We are talking about three members of Kingsguard, not one.

That his safety is apparently important to her.

Barristan thinks that "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna", so his concern with Lyanna's safety is not particularly surprising. He also gives us an account of the previous KG assignments which did not follow the KG primary goal, yet the KG had to obey the orders.

[Jaak]

10 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 And she must have heard this tale from Viserys who at 8 years old I doubt was his brother's confidant upon his return to KL. So I suggest he spoke with his mother Rhaella. Whom he has no reason at all to hide a single thing from. Who then told her son the romantic story of his brother's love and what not whilst they held up on Dragonstone for 9 months.  Rhaella died shortly after giving birth to Dany, but Viserys seems to have recounted the story to her, so whatever else Rhaegar told their mother she likely knows too

Viserys was raised till the age of 12 or so by ser Willum Darry.

Who was brother of ser Jonothor.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

13 hours ago, Jaak said:

Viserys was raised till the age of 12 or so by ser Willum Darry.

Who was brother of ser Jonothor.

And? your point is what exactly? 

[cgrav]

I agree it's conspicuous that Barristan in particular never thinks back and wonders why half the KG went to Dorne while the King and Prince were in KL and the Riverlands. But the lack of mention in Barristan's own thoughts could be taken to imply that he didn't find anything unusual about it. 

On the other hand, Barristan recalls his prior role as the Good Soldier who went out of his way to avoid royal politics, and thinks about how insecure he feels as part of the coup against Hizdahr. It's also possible he simply put the question out of his mind in order to carry on with his duty, despite it appearing to be an extremely bad decision. 

In either case, they'd have found out somehow that three KG, including their lord commander, were killed in Dorne. 

[Jaak]

On 22.7.2017 at 1:55 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And? your point is what exactly? 

1) Rhaella died when Viserys was 8 or so. Ser Willum, when he's 12.

Given the difference in intelligence and memory between a 8 year old and a 12 year old, most of what Viserys knew and had to tell to Daenerys must have come from Willum, not Rhaella.

2) Did ser Willum know only common knowledge of Westeros, or did he have any inside sources?

His brother was ser Jonothor. However, ser Jonothor was not in on Rhaegaer's plot - he fought at Riverlands along with ser Barristan. So likely ser Willum knew no more than ser Barristan.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

The King's Guard was taught to obey .

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

1) Rhaella died when Viserys was 8 or so. Ser Willum, when he's 12.

Given the difference in intelligence and memory between a 8 year old and a 12 year old, most of what Viserys knew and had to tell to Daenerys must have come from Willum, not Rhaella.

2) Did ser Willum know only common knowledge of Westeros, or did he have any inside sources?

His brother was ser Jonothor. However, ser Jonothor was not in on Rhaegaer's plot - he fought at Riverlands along with ser Barristan. So likely ser Willum knew no more than ser Barristan.

Yes the memory capacity of an 8-year-old is not as good as that of a twelve-year-old. But the chances of the information having come from Jonothor darry Via his brother Willam are very slim.

The information she has regarding how he took her at sword point because he loved her and the implications of her thinking this on route to her unwanted wedding is very personal.

he returned to KL between the ToJ and the Trident. So this is when he had the opportunity to impart this information on someone.  Now it has to be either Rhaella or Willam. Jonothor died in the Riverlands  And only Rhaella and Willam went with Viserys to dragon stone. Ask yourself who he is more likely to have spoken to about his love?

 His mother is the more logical answer. Willam; and I have mentioned this in previous threads, may have been the Queen's confidant upon hearing of her son's tragic death she may have told Ser Willam all that he had shared with her on their final meeting, and he could then repeat it to Viserys and Daenarys.  But for simplification here I just said Rhaella.  

The principle point being, Dany may know quite a lot of juicy detail regarding Rhaegar & Lyanna which would affect how she takes the news of Jon.  

 After all, if Dany knows full well they were wed, and she hears this boy in the North has claimed he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, the point people are always trying to make regarding the Lords and Ladies of Westeros believing if he is legitimate or not is mute. After all, she has dragons and if she believes he is then he damn well is! 

You seem to be acknowledging that the information Dany has must have come from someone whom Rhaegar spoke to. But then dismissing the person you think must have been the source as not knowing anything more than Barristan? Which is a confusing stance to take. 

The fact is that in the text Dany recalls a story which has details she can only have heard from her brother or Darry, Darry can only know if Rhaegar confided in him directly (unlikely) or in his mother Rhaella (much more likely) who later confided in Darry.

Or she (Rhaella)  told Viserys directly.  Which I think is more likely, but does not at all exclude doing both, telling her son and the old Knight who then reinforced the story in his and his sister's memories.  

We, therefore, have to conclude that Dany herself has more information pertaining to the relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar than the reader at first is led to assume. 

 

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

It's not really in Barristan's nature to question anything. All Barristan ever wanted to do is be a Kingsguard and follow a king or queen's orders. We see this in the Ned and Cersei stand off over Robert's will. Even though deep down he knows what Cersei did with the "King's words" is wrong he still follows her and Joffrey's orders all the same. 

[cgrav]

32 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

It's not really in Barristan's nature to question anything. All Barristan ever wanted to do is be a Kingsguard and follow a king or queen's orders. We see this in the Ned and Cersei stand off over Robert's will. Even though deep down he knows what Cersei did with the "King's words" is wrong he still follows her and Joffrey's orders all the same. 

Barristan never questions openly, but his POVs do make clear that he broods on these issues, and I'd expect him to brood quite a bit if he perceived as needless the deaths of his own LC and two other KG brothers. 

I have to conclude that the Jaime and Barristan knew Rhaegar had a hideout down there he would be visiting soon and possibly that Lyanna was there waiting for him.

I just can't think of any other scenario in which neither Jaime nor Barristan would think to question Rhaegar's motives or the truth of whatever accounts they heard.

I understand Barristan suppressing his own inquisitiveness, but definitely not Jaime. It's very conspicuous that Jaime doesn't think about the ToJ.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

21 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I understand Barristan suppressing his own inquisitiveness, but definitely not Jaime. It's very conspicuous that Jaime doesn't think about the ToJ.

Well it seems like Jamie has concentrated more on his killing of Aerys then anything else in regards to Robert's Rebellion. Even that though he pretends to not care about. Do I think he ever wondered what really happened at the ToJ? Sure. However in the grand scheme of things it's no longer that big of a deal to him. They all died and Robert took the Throne and married his sister. Only Ned might know what happened and I doubt Jamie would ever think to ask him about it with his relationship with Ned being what it is. 

[TMIFairy]

As to Jaime not thinking about the ToJ - I suspect that he may not wish about Aerys' days at all.

It was awful - he was a wide eyed teenager, still believing in chivalry, dropped into the filth, madness and cruelty of Aerys' court.

I'd use "mind bleach" myself ... if I was Jaime I'd think of my path to Knighthood and then from the moment when sweet Cersei came to KL, wiping out the time in the middle.

Not to mention that Jaime does not strike me as being a thinker.