Did Jaime and Barristan question...

[WeKnowNothing]

45 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Where the hell do you get this stuff?  Why would she be killed?  The Starks aren't killing their own daughter, and the rest of those Houses will almost certainly subscribe the notion that she was kidnapped and violated against her will (because whether or not it is actually true, it's a self-serving pretense).  And this is my whole freakin' point - she's going to show up with a baby at some point, so the whole thing will be common knowledge!  Why bother keeping it secret, then?  And if she goes to a Dornish or Reacher castle, why would they care?  They're already fighting for Aerys and Rhaegar.

Why does she have to be heavily pregnant?  She'd know within a few months at most of her pregnancy.  Pregnant women in their second trimester are perfectly mobile, even in Westeros heavily pregnant women are moving around, we have evidence of it.  You're deliberating ignoring evidence and just common sense to make your awful arguments

Because it's not germane to the story that anyone else gives them to her?  Look, I know it's a foreign concept, but lets apply logic here.  Ned knows his sister lots, put them in my lsense at all, which is naturally why you're the only one saying it.  Here is a much more plausible scenario, which has none of the awful gaps in logic and leaps of faith yours does.  Lyanna is abducted at swordpoint.  This is as close to canon as we get; Lyanna didn't "elope" she was confronted by a group of armed men, the choice of words is very particular.  So off she goes, a semi-captive at least, to the Tower of Joy.  Rhaegar sleeps with her, which when under threat of violence I call rape and you call love.  Well, Rhaegar sparked off a war, so now off hegoes to deal with it.  He leaves three Kingsguard, who are valuable only because of their loyalty to him, and not because of any particular fighting prowess in this instance, and one wet nurse provided by Arthur Dayne's family.  Lyanna, being pregnant and trapped in the Tower (despite being perfectly capable of going elsewhere in the earlier stages of her pregnancy, contrary to your other straw man argument about late stage pregnancy. 

See how easily all that works?  There isn't a single logical inconsistency in it, the way yours is riddled with them.  She associates the roses with Winterfell and family, not Rhaegar.  The only way your objection works is if the blue winter roses are associated with Rhaegar, which makes no sense on the face of it. 

Which story are you reading?  The whole thing with Cersei and Littlefinger is presented as an out-and-out coup.  Illegal, in other words, since you might not understand the meaning of the word "coup".

 

I addressed this above, but you really need to think before committing yourself to paper (or... digital paper).  It makes you look a fool.  The three KG at the Tower of Joy have no idea what is happening after Rhaegar dies, because no one knows where they are to alert them.  Certainly they have no idea of the death of Aerys and baby Aegon.

And yes, honorable Gerold Hightower stays and dies, because his orders are not to protect Lyanna, but to keep her from leaving.  Its self evident that Ned isn't there to kill his sister, who he thinks has been abducted.  Right?  As you say, these three die to fulfill their duty.  So we have to guess, what did Rhaegar order them to do?  If his orders were "make sure Lyanna and her child are safe" then there is absolutely no reason for the Kingsguard and Ned to fight.  He's not there to hurt them, and if they're concerned about his intentions towards Jon, they would at least ask that.  So what order fits the facts?  f they've been ordered to keep Lyanna from leaving.  Obviously Ned is there to rescue Lyanna.  Equally self-evidently, Hightower & Co have been ordered to prevent this.  Nothing else makes sense.  They are not fighting to protect anyone in this circumstance, they are fighting to prevent Ned from reaching his sister, and there is only one reason for that.  Yet another hole in your argument big enough to fly a 747 through.

The only (relevant) point of yours I'd like to say now is that you've forgotten what happens to Lysa, who also becomes pregnant by a man she wasnt supposed to, and who was also in the early stages of pregnancy - and if you really read the same story as me, I wouldn't need to explain what her father did to her unborn baby. Lyanna's case wouldn't have been any different. Now you can go on and give a page of evidence as to why Lyanna would still have been fine if she went back north in the early stages of pregnancy. 

As to why you seem to have the impression that I write nonsense before I think - believe me, I wouldn't be on this forum if I did. So far, I have used valid textual evidence with all the points I've given, then explained it further if I feel any bits are still missing. I don't (as you seem to think) pluck  ideas and theories out of thin air or make them up in my head as I go along. Anyway, seeing as this doesn't seem to be heading anywhere, I can just back out from this discussion (or whatever you can call it) now.

[cpg2016]

1 hour ago, WeKnowNothing said:

The only (relevant) point of yours I'd like to say now is that you've forgotten what happens to Lysa, who also becomes pregnant by a man she wasnt supposed to, and who was also in the early stages of pregnancy - and if you really read the same story as me, I wouldn't need to explain what her father did to her unborn baby. Lyanna's case wouldn't have been any different. Now you can go on and give a page of evidence as to why Lyanna would still have been fine if she went back north in the early stages of pregnancy. 

Who buddy.  You specifically said they would kill Lyanna!  Which did not happen to Lysa.  So yeah, she could have gone back to Winterfell and had an abortion (though who knows how long tansy works).

But this is all further to my point - what exactly do you think happens here?  Lyanna has to come out in public at some point!  Which means so does baby Jon.  You haven't even come close to squaring this circle.  It's a secret pregnancy, but somehow all the reasons to keep that pregnancy secret disappear once Jon is born?  How does that make any sense?  By contrast, if Lyanna is a prisoner, then everthing makes perfect sense.

I get that reading a lot is hard, and responding to what I've written is harder still, but again.... you haven't managed to point out one flaw in my argument.  You just keep contorting yourself into ever more absurd positions to justify a terrible argument.

1 hour ago, WeKnowNothing said:

So far, I have used valid textual evidence with all the points I've given, then explained it further if I feel any bits are still missing.

You haven't provided any textual evidence that I've seen.  You've taken massive leaps of assumption to make some passages work the way you want them, ignoring more logical analysis.  And furthermore, you're consistently wrong about basic facts.  An abbreviated list:

Its implied that Rhaegar-Lyanna wanted this pregnancy to be as secret as possible

This isn't implied anywhere, even a little.

She has KG protection because she is carrying a Royal heir of a prince

Jon isn't and wasn't an heir.  This isn't even open to interpretation.

That's why KG are always kept around heirs, because they take sacred vows to protect the King and any of his heirs

The Kingsguard in no way take vows to guard the heirs or even any member of the royal family outside the person of the King.  This is made explicit in the text.

If any of the Starks, Baratheons, Arryns, Tully's, or anyone loyal to these houses find out that Lyanna is pregnant and willing, both she and the baby will be killed. That is for certain.

Again, for all that you are "certain" is almost inconceivable that Lyanna would be killed in this circumstance.  Every other example we have shows that while the child or fetus might be aborted, the daughter will be assumed to be a victim and will be welcomed back into the house, which... is exactly what happened here anyway.  

 If she did indeed love these flowers and it was "well known" that she did, why wasn't it mentioned that anyone else besides Rhaegar ever gave her blue roses?

We know that Ned is aware that she loves those flowers.  That's all the evidence we need, we don't need a story about every time she went flower-picking.  Ned has no way of knowing this detail unless this is a longstanding thing that predates Rhaegar's involvement in her life.  He just has no other way to know this.

who he connects with nobody else but Rhaegar

He connects them to Jon.

Jst so I'm clear, these aren't points of disagreement; these are places where you are factually, incontrovertibly wrong.  Well, maybe not the second to last one, but the circumstantial evidence is so overwhelming there you may as well be.

You see why I don't respect the massive inferences you're making from the text?  If you can't even be bothered to get the basic facts of your theory down, then why should any of it be right?  All your arguments about why the Kingsguard are present - totally meaningless, because you don't understand the first thing about what their presence indicates.  Because you don't understand what it is they are sworn to do, and what their roles are.  The text explicitly contradicts you, in multiple places.  So don't give me any of this BS about providing evidence.  You haven't provided one quote.  You've been wrong when quoting the few facts you bother to present.

[spauldo17]

17 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

 

Rhaegars death would definitely cancel any orders he made. Just like in the current time of AGOT, Robert makes very specific orders as to what should happen after his death; such as Ned being regent till Joffrey comes of age. Yet the minute Robert was dead and Ned took his will containing his orders to the throne room, Roberts very words were ripped apart and no one blinked twice. Sure, Selmy as the Lord commander of the KG is rather shocked at first, but does not question further as he would now be following the orders of the new King Joffrey. This would be the same case for the 3 KG at the tower - once Rhaegar, Aerys and baby Aegon were all dead, they should head over to Viserys, never mind what orders Rhaegar gave before his death. Especially Lord commander Gerold Hightower, he was known to be the most honourable and obedient rule follower of the KG vows, so he would definitely gone over to Viserys if he was now the King/heir. But instead, honourable Hightower stays, and dies for Lyanna's baby. 

The example you use is unrelated.  You are talking about the orders of a king, and that king died, thus ending his reign.   The orders in question are given by a prince, while his father, the king, still lives.  Therefore their reign continues and the orders stand.

[cgrav]

5 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

The example you use is unrelated.  You are talking about the orders of a king, and that king died, thus ending his reign.   The orders in question are given by a prince, while his father, the king, still lives.  Therefore their reign continues and the orders stand.

I would say Rhaegar's orders to the ToJ KG are evidence of their complicity in the plot to dethrone Aerys. I think it's not coincidence that Whent was at the ToJ just a year after Whent of Harrenhall agreed to host Rhaegar's "tourney". Whether Rhaegar lived or died, those were the guys he trusted to safeguard the Targ succession instead of Aerys or Robert.

In a way, Varys and Illyrio's Aegon plot can be seen as the continuation of Rhaegar's plan.

[Jaak]

On 25.7.2017 at 1:04 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes the memory capacity of an 8-year-old is not as good as that of a twelve-year-old. But the chances of the information having come from Jonothor darry Via his brother Willam are very slim.

The information she has regarding how he took her at sword point because he loved her and the implications of her thinking this on route to her unwanted wedding is very personal.

he returned to KL between the ToJ and the Trident. So this is when he had the opportunity to impart this information on someone.  Now it has to be either Rhaella or Willam. Jonothor died in the Riverlands  And only Rhaella and Willam went with Viserys to dragon stone. Ask yourself who he is more likely to have spoken to about his love?

 His mother is the more logical answer. Willam; and I have mentioned this in previous threads, may have been the Queen's confidant upon hearing of her son's tragic death she may have told Ser Willam all that he had shared with her on their final meeting, and he could then repeat it to Viserys and Daenarys.  But for simplification here I just said Rhaella.  

The principle point being, Dany may know quite a lot of juicy detail regarding Rhaegar & Lyanna which would affect how she takes the news of Jon.  

 After all, if Dany knows full well they were wed, and she hears this boy in the North has claimed he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, the point people are always trying to make regarding the Lords and Ladies of Westeros believing if he is legitimate or not is mute. After all, she has dragons and if she believes he is then he damn well is! 

You seem to be acknowledging that the information Dany has must have come from someone whom Rhaegar spoke to. But then dismissing the person you think must have been the source as not knowing anything more than Barristan? Which is a confusing stance to take. 

The fact is that in the text Dany recalls a story which has details she can only have heard from her brother or Darry, Darry can only know if Rhaegar confided in him directly (unlikely) or in his mother Rhaella (much more likely) who later confided in Darry.

Or she (Rhaella)  told Viserys directly.  Which I think is more likely, but does not at all exclude doing both, telling her son and the old Knight who then reinforced the story in his and his sister's memories.  

We, therefore, have to conclude that Dany herself has more information pertaining to the relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar than the reader at first is led to assume.

"Confusing stance" because I was trying to figure out the sources of information and plausible paths.

Who were the original witnesses to the kidnapping, 10 leagues from Harrenhal?

Expressly present:

1. Lyanna
2. Rhaegaer
3. Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent
4. 4 other unnamed armed men, from Rhaegaer having "half a dozen" armed companions

Implied present:

Some companions/servants of Lyanna

Implied from where?

If Rhaegaer kidnapped Lyanna being alone, and Lyanna by definition was kidnapped and missing, no one would have heard that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegaer. Brandon would have searched for his missing sister, but he would not have been sure to ask at Red Keep.

If Rhaegaer and his 6 armed comrades had forced all Lyanna´s servants to accompany her to captivity, the result would have been the same - Lyanna missing and no one knows to point fingers at Rhaegaer. The Queen of Love and Beauty might direct some suspicion at him, but no clear evidence.

Therefore some companions of Lyanna must have escaped or been allowed to leave, and alerted Brandon.

That leaves the remaining 4 types of witnesses.

Lyanna was never attested to have met anyone else till the fight at Tower of Joy.

And neither were Arthur and Oswell.

That leaves Rhaegaer... and his 4 unnamed companions.

Now, when was the next time Rhaegaer was attested?

At Red Keep, while preparing for Trident.

Who else were there at that time?

1. Aerys
2. Rhaella
3. Viserys
4. Elia
5. Jaime
6. Willum
7. Lewyn
8. Jonothor

Who was apparently not there at the time was Barristan.

Presence of Jonothor Darry at Red Keep pre-Trident is attested by Jaime. It was Jonothor who guarded Rhaella and told Jaime that they were not to protect her from Aerys. It was Jonothor whom Jaime wanted to stay at Red Keep and who told Jaime to obey.

Barristan´s presence is not attested. And the account implies that he may have been elsewhere. It was Barristan and Jonothor who had rallied royal army in Riverlands. If Jonothor travelled to Red Keep, it is likely that Barristan was left alone leading royal army in Riverlands and waiting for Rhaegaer´s reinforcements.

Now, what could they hear?

Rhaegaer had been missing for months. And caused some problems to his family and realm.

It makes sense that Rhaegaer could and should have given some account of his actions - tell his side of story in a private or semi-private manner.

Does not mean that he told the whole truth, or only truth, or that his hearers believed he had done so. Nor did he have to tell the story to all 8 together, or the same things to all 8. But it was some more information, which the whole realm may not have heard.

So yes. Anything Viserys might have heard from Rhaella, he might also have heard from Rhaegaer.

Willum is another matter, because he lived appreciably longer.

About Barristan: he was not at Red Keep. But he did meet Rhaegaer later, at the army camp pre-Trident. Which means Rhaegaer had the opportunity to repeat to Barristan personally what he had told at Red Keep. Or Jonothor and Lewyn may have repeated what they had heard from Rhaegaer.

Now about use of Kingsguard...

There IS a precedent for Kingsguard kidnapping women for a prince.

Ser Joffrey Staunton.

Forced a blacksmith to sell his pretty wife Megette to prince Aegon.

Who was then neither heir nor son of King. At that time, the King was Aegon Dragonsbane, Crown Prince Daeron, another prince Baelor, while Viserys was just King´s brother and Aegon just King´s nephew.

No one authorized Aegon to kidnap wives at swordpoint, or ordered ser Joffrey to kidnap women if asked to.

Yet ser Joffrey did not refuse Aegon Unworthy´s order and advise the smith to keep his wife if he valued her more than 7 dragons. Nor does ser Joffrey seem to have raised hell to alert King and daddy Viserys of their boy´s misconduct as soon as he was back from the assignment. Certainly neither Aegon Dragonsbane nor Viserys did anything till 4 daughters later.

So, the complicity of ser Arthur and ser Oswell in a prince being a selfish git was not unprecedented, therefore not suspicious.

[cgrav]

@Jaak ... or Rhaegar told someone.

How does any of this "actually kidnapped" stuff comport with the fact that Ned has only positive thoughts of Rhaegar? 

I'd say part of the irony in the kidnapping story is that being forced to marry Robert would have far more like forced concubinage. Look how he treated Cersei.

There is also the question of why Lyanna was right near Harrenhall and how Rhaegar knew to find her there. Finding random people in medieval times is like throwing darts blind. It'd be total luck running into someone by chance, especially hundreds of miles from any place they have business.

[spauldo17]

21 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

No, it isn't simple.  You're wrong on a bunch of levels.  First off, baby Jon is emphatically not part of the royal family, he's a bastard.  Hence why he's not at the Red Keep, why the whole abduction thing sparked off a rebellion, all that.

 

That's incorrect.  Rhaegar and Lyanna, being in love and both of royal lineage, presumably had plans for their child.  Obviously we don't know that for sure, because it wasn't explicitly stated in the books, but it can be logically assumed, in my opinion.  She's not at the Red Keep due to an impending war and probably invasion.  The safest place in an invasion, is somewhere isolated that's not in the castle which is the focal point of said invasion.

 

21 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

No, it isn't, because it ends with a baby!  What was the plan with Jon?  I agree with you technically, but you're not thinking through the argument.  A secret pregnancy means the child will be kept secret, too.  If the child is going to become public knowledge, then what the hell is the point of keeping the pregnancy secret?  You gotta think this stuff through to it's logical conclusion.  If Jon is meant to be openly acknowledge as Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, then there is no reason to keep it secret.  If Jon isn't meant to be acknowledged as Rhaegar's bastard, then why keep it secret?  Why not let Lyanna go home to Winterfell?  There isn't any explanation for this, much less a convincing one.

 

 

I never said the baby was going to be a secret.  I said the pregnancy was a secret.  There's a small, though important difference there.  Once the baby is born they can take baby and mother anywhere they wish and protect them accordingly.  While Lyanna is in the throes of pregnancy it's much harder to move her around.  They wanted a stationary isolated location away from prying eyes.  It's much easier to find and disrupt an in-process pregnancy, than it is to kill an already alive heir or Rhaegar.  Besides a lot of it has to do with control of the offspring.  If she gives birth while in the possession (relative possession) of the royal family, it's easier for Rhaegar and Lyanna to keep control of their child.  If she's stolen back by Robert then the baby becomes, in effect, a ward of Roberts and the starks.

 

 

22 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

And yes, being held in the middle of nowhere does imply being imprisoned!  You're argument is that Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar and decided that the Tower of Joy was just such a romantic spot, despite literally never having been there, that she had to have her baby there?  That makes no sense.  Lyanna has no reason to keep any of this secret, if she's a willing participant.  Everyone knows she's with Rhaegar, so if she shows up with a baby in tow, everyone will know whose it is.

She's in the middle of nowhere.  She's being deliberately isolated from her family, her friends, anyone who could reasonably be termed a support network.  Her only companions are a wet nurse for the baby, and three armed guards whose loyalty, when push comes to shove, is 100% with Rhaegar, no matter what.  If Rhaegar wants to set her on fire, they're gonna stand by.  If Rhaegar wants to violently rape her, they're gonna stand by.  That is imprisonment!

 

You seem to be having some difficulties understanding the nature of imprisonment.  The discerning factor in an imprisonment isn't location or the presence of guards, it's whether or not the subject is there against their will. Just because she's "in the middle of nowhere" does not mean she's there against her will.  She probably agreed with Rhaegar that it was the safest place to complete the pregnancy.  Done. 

22 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

 

No, GRRM tells us that the blue roses are Lyanna's thing.  Her love of blue winter roses predated the Tourney at Harrenhal.  He gives them to her not because it's their thing, but because its hers and he's trying to seduce her.  If your girlfriend loves daisies and you give her a bouquet of daisies, it doesn't mean that suddenly daisies are some romantic inside thing between you; she liked the flowers and you got them for her to make her happy.  I don't understand why you think this is something that no one else can know; Rhaegar could have told Arthur Dayne "she likes blue winter roses; do you mind getting a few for her?" or hell, Lyanna might tell them herself!

The roses are not a literary device representing Lyanna, they represent Jon.  So when she dies clutching blue winter roses, it's meant to further tip us off that Jon is her son.  The fandom accepts this so wholly that you've now forgotten what it was initially meant to be and are trying to find another meaning.

 

The blue roses being Lyanna's thing is inconsequential.  You're missing the bigger picture, and the literary device.  She may have loved blue roses, and everyone may have known it, but as soon as Rhaegar crowned her with the blue roses it became a literary symbol.  They are now literarily connected by the blue roses he gave her. If you are so inclined you should consider asking a professor or teacher of literature about this, they can explain it more properly.

The way you picture it is asinine.  You think she's in the middle of her pregnancy, about to give birth and she's like, "No wait!  have one of the kingsgaurd outside go pick me some blue roses, I want the baby to smell roses when he bursts forth from my womb!"  That's silly.

22 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

I think Lyanna was probably forcibly abducted (maybe not) and certainly imprisoned.  She doesn't and didn't love Rhaegar, as we have literally zero evidence of any feelings on her part for him except that she cried at a sad song he sang that one time.  Sex without consent is rape.  Consent at the point of a sword, is not consent.  All we know for sure is Rhaegar, with an armed guard, accosted Lyanna in the Riverlands, and she went with him to the ass-end of nowhere and a few months later was pregnant.  None of our character witnesses are reliable, so take the facts as they are.  At best, we have to suspect Lyanna's willingness, because the whole thing is done at swordpoint.  At worst, she was violently kidnapped.  So here she is, in the Tower of Joy, with Rhaegar and a handful of knights who are perfectly willing to support Rhaegar with force no matter what he wants to do to her!  How is that not rape?  She has no choice; it's give in or be beaten/killed.  It is literally, and I mean that, literally not possible to give consent in such a situation.  

So again, you have not presented one credible iota of evidence that Lyanna was a willing participant in all this.  At best, she did it under duress.

You are skewing the facts to line up with your version of the truth.  I don't blame you, it's human nature.  We are given many points of reference in the text that point towards it being love.  Remember, this isn't a documentary, this is a novel, written by a human being.  A human being that purposely wrote specific things to nudge his readers in certain directions.  Authors write nothing by accident, everything has a meaning.  We have the blue rose crown, the blue roses in the bed chamber, the fact that Rhaegar died saying Lyanna's name.  The secret that Lyanna asked Ned to keep, she didn't say she was raped, or that it was against her will.  She was clutching the blue roses, the very same type Rhaegar gave her.  Think about that, if Rhaegar had stolen her and raped her by sword point those blue roses would become a symbol of that rape to her.  They would represent the reprehensible man that forced her into this.  She would reject that symbol.  Instead she dies clutching them. We have a quote from someone who knew them saying Rhaegar loved her.  GRRM did not write all of these clues into his novels hoping some clever reader named cpg2016 would one day unravel the secret mystery of rape. He didn't say, I sure hope someone out there realizes that even though I wrote in hints that they were in love I really meant she was a rape victim.  That's asinine and if I'm wrong I'll eat my shoe. 

 

In the end it matters little.  Jon is the product of those two one way or another.  Doesn't matter how it happened.

[Jaak]

12 hours ago, spauldo17 said:

She's not at the Red Keep due to an impending war and probably invasion.  The safest place in an invasion, is somewhere isolated that's not in the castle which is the focal point of said invasion.

No, she´s not in Red Keep because Aerys is not on board with Rhaegaer about Lyanna. If Lyanna were anywhere public, be it Red Keep or Dragonstone, Aerys would have her detained and forbid Rhaegaer from spending time with her.

Whether a kidnap/rape victim or a consensual lover, Lyanna is Rhaegaer´s favourite toy. About anybody else would take his favourite toy away from him, in which case he would cry.

[spauldo17]

On ‎7‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 0:55 AM, Jaak said:

No, she´s not in Red Keep because Aerys is not on board with Rhaegaer about Lyanna. If Lyanna were anywhere public, be it Red Keep or Dragonstone, Aerys would have her detained and forbid Rhaegaer from spending time with her.

Whether a kidnap/rape victim or a consensual lover, Lyanna is Rhaegaer´s favourite toy. About anybody else would take his favourite toy away from him, in which case he would cry.

Your entire post was projecting your own personal thoughts and feelings onto Rhaegar.  There is absolutely nothing in the books that supports your claims here.  "Aerys is not on board"  says who?     "Aerys would have her detained"  That's your own speculation "forbid Rhaegar from spending time with her" again your own speculation "Lyanna is Rhaegar's favorite toy"  That's a  value laden statement and a pretty trivial way of characterizing an example of love from the books.   "If anybody else would take his favorite toy away from him he would cry"  What evidence do you have of this?  You sound like you have some pretty strong feelings about this, and you're letting your feelings dictate your thoughts on the matter rather than the facts.

[WeKnowNothing]

On 27 July 2017 at 3:59 PM, spauldo17 said:

The example you use is unrelated.  You are talking about the orders of a king, and that king died, thus ending his reign.   The orders in question are given by a prince, while his father, the king, still lives.  Therefore their reign continues and the orders stand.

I wasn't talking in relation to a prince or King. I meant both Barristan and the 3 KG at the ToJ never follows orders set by their dead prince/King. The 3 KG orders could have come from either Aerys or Rhagear, but for all we know, they didn't follow the specific orders required. Barristan does something similar, his moral knightly duty would have been to accept an loyally follow Robert's orders. But once them orders are overturned by Joffrey, his kingsguard vows compel him to follow Joffrey's orders. The 3 KG do something the same even in a different setting and timing, that's why I was comparing them to each other - because if Barristan managed to stop following a dead Robert's orders, the 3 KG would have done the same to a dead Rhaegar's orders or dead Aerys's orders...or something similar atleast.

[cpg2016]

On 7/27/2017 at 0:49 PM, spauldo17 said:

That's incorrect.  Rhaegar and Lyanna, being in love and both of royal lineage, presumably had plans for their child.  Obviously we don't know that for sure, because it wasn't explicitly stated in the books, but it can be logically assumed, in my opinion.  She's not at the Red Keep due to an impending war and probably invasion.  The safest place in an invasion, is somewhere isolated that's not in the castle which is the focal point of said invasion.

OK.  Lets break down all the ways this is wrong.

First off, Jon is not an heir.  I cannot stress this enough.  The fact that Lyanna is an important noble lady with royal blood in her veins means diddly squat when it comes to succession rights.  Baby Aegon is the heir, and most likely Viserys after him (the various Great Council's have set a pretty iron precedent on female inheritance).  Jon is nothing.  This isn't a matter of conflicting opinions, this is fact.  Jon is no more eligible to inherit the Iron Throne or anything of Rhaegar's or Lyanna's, than Gendry is a candidate for the Iron Throne.  Being a bastard is explicitly in order to exclude one from succession.  The only way to change this is through royal decree (e.g. Robb declaring Jon Snow a trueborn Stark and heir to the North), which is such a significant event that we have to assume it did not happen, else we'd have heard of Aerys legitimizing Jon.

Secondly, your logic is downright awful.  Why would Lyanna and Rhaegar expect a war?  Their running off didn't start a war, Aerys' immolating of Rickard and Brandon, and calls for the execution of Ned and Robert, do.  So your timing is, again, just wrong.  They're not escaping to safety, and anyway, there is no reason the Red Keep is any more or less safe than the Tower of Joy, which sits on the edge of the Stormlands.

Literally everything in the paragraph I just quoted of yours makes no sense or is outright, incontrovertibly wrong.  And, I'll point out, it's all presupposed on the idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna are "in love, and have plans for their child" which is by no means assured.  Rhaegar certainly does, Lyanna less so.

On 7/27/2017 at 0:49 PM, spauldo17 said:

You seem to be having some difficulties understanding the nature of imprisonment.  The discerning factor in an imprisonment isn't location or the presence of guards, it's whether or not the subject is there against their will. Just because she's "in the middle of nowhere" does not mean she's there against her will.  She probably agreed with Rhaegar that it was the safest place to complete the pregnancy.  Done. 

Except none of your argument makes sense.  Firstly, why is it the "safest" place to complete a pregnancy?  Childbirth has a massive mortality rate, and (and I can't stress this enough) no one is trying to kill Lyanna!  She's in no danger, at all, from anyone.  The Starks and Baratheons are looking to rescue her.  

So Lyanna is about to undergo an extremely dangerous process (giving birth) with no medical support, no maester, no midwife that we know of, no nothing.  She has no friends, no family, nothing by her to help her through.  So we can outright discount the idea that this is a "safe" place.  What it is, is an "isolated" place, which are not always the same thing.  Either she's being hidden, or is hiding.   And if she was there willingly, why the hell does she need 3 armed guards and only three?  They are clearly not enough to defend her if an enemy comes calling, as is clear IOTL.  So they're not "protecting her" in any real sense.  You know what three armed men can do?  Prevent an unarmed, pregnant woman from running off.

We have no reliable evidence one way or the other, so our only hope is to examine the circumstances.  For your story to be correct, you have to twist the bounds of logic in every possible instance in order for it to make sense.  Why the Tower of Joy?  You say it's safe, but from what?  There is nothing to be "safe" from since when they go, there is no war and no threat.  But if I don't want my hostage being found, well, a tower in the middle of nowhere makes perfect sense.

On 7/27/2017 at 0:49 PM, spauldo17 said:

I never said the baby was going to be a secret.  I said the pregnancy was a secret.  There's a small, though important difference there.  Once the baby is born they can take baby and mother anywhere they wish and protect them accordingly.  While Lyanna is in the throes of pregnancy it's much harder to move her around. 

I know what the small, important difference is.  And it's an awful point.  Look, is Lyanna planning on spending the rest of her life on the run (from people who don't want to kill her or harm her, no less)?  If the baby isn't secret, why keep the pregnancy secret?  What possible difference could it make to be in the Red Keep, or Oldtown?  Oldtown is equally far if not farther from the Stormlands and the North (and therefore, the people looking for her).  It has adequate medical care for a teenaged girl who is about to go through an incredibly dangerous process of giving birth, which will in fact kill her IOTL and certainly wouldn't have been far from the mind of Lyanna or Rhaegar (who is only doing this because Elia cannot give birth again).

So again, lets list all the unbelievably enormous plot holes in your random assortment of musings (which fall short of being a theory).  Who is Lyanna being protected from, and why?  Why isn't she being taken somewhere with adequate medical facilities?  What, exactly, is the plan post-partum on the part of Rhaegar and Lyanna?  Rhaegar especially has a kingdom to help run, not to mention a pre-existing wife and kids.

On 7/27/2017 at 0:49 PM, spauldo17 said:

We have the blue rose crown, the blue roses in the bed chamber,

All of which are meant to tip us off to Jon's identity.

On 7/27/2017 at 0:49 PM, spauldo17 said:

he fact that Rhaegar died saying Lyanna's name. 

I'm not even denying that Rhaegar cared for Lyanna.  It is more than possible, even likely, that he did.  But he's the jailor, so his feelings are totally immaterial, in the same way that a rapist might "love" his or her victim, but still be violating them.

On 7/27/2017 at 0:49 PM, spauldo17 said:

The secret that Lyanna asked Ned to keep, she didn't say she was raped, or that it was against her will.

We have no effing clue what she told Ned except that she told him to hide Jon.  Again, you have yet to prove how this has anything, at all, to do with her feelings for Rhaegar.  She loves her son, no matter where he came from.  Ask any mother how they feel about their kids and you'll understand why she might love Jon without loving Rhaegar.

On 7/27/2017 at 0:49 PM, spauldo17 said:

She was clutching the blue roses, the very same type Rhaegar gave her.  Think about that, if Rhaegar had stolen her and raped her by sword point those blue roses would become a symbol of that rape to her. 

Says who?  I say they'd be a reminder of home, the home she was being forcibly denied.  You have an opinion here, not a piece of evidence, and weak one at that.

Mind you, what else is she supposed to do?  She's dying and she knows it.  She has only one thing in the whole room that gives her any joy, and it's those flowers (which, remember.... almost certainly weren't given to her by Rhaegar, they being months old at this point).

On 7/27/2017 at 0:49 PM, spauldo17 said:

We have a quote from someone who knew them saying Rhaegar loved her. 

Well, we really don't.  We have an opinion from someone who didn't know, and who has every reason to idolize and think the best of Rhaegar, but I'm not expecting you to grasp the concept of an unreliable narrator when you've already so conspicuously failed to grasp the timing of the narrative, or the basic facts of inheritance that are explicitly laid down in the text, or anything like that.

On 7/27/2017 at 0:49 PM, spauldo17 said:

He didn't say, I sure hope someone out there realizes that even though I wrote in hints that they were in love I really meant she was a rape victim.  That's asinine and if I'm wrong I'll eat my shoe. 

Well, actually, he writes it both ways, no doesn't he.  Because plenty of characters fight and war and die on the assumption she was kidnapped.

Here is a narrative that has no holes in it.  Rhaegar reads about the Prince that was Promised, and believes that, like the Targaryen sigil, it has "three heads" or in other words, it's three kids.  This is about as explicit as we can have.  So here he is, with two kids with his wife Elia, when he's told another childbirth will likely kill her.  Well, he's still short one Targaryen kid, so what does he do?  He starts casting about for another baby mama.  Maybe he reads a prophecy called "the song of ice and fire", which is heavily implied, and naturally thinks about the Starks.  Anyway, he sets up the Harrenhal tourney for a totally separate reason, but sees his chance.  Maybe Lyanna is a little taken with him, since hes a handsome prince who fits the bill for "perfect Westerosi male" literally to a T.  He finds out from a member of the Stark household that Lyanna loves blue winter roses; not difficult, it's clearly common knowledge in Winterfell, since Ned is aware of it despite barely seeing his sister for about 10 years.  He gives them to her as part of his seduction.  All well and good.  Everyone rides off, and Rhaegar accosts Lyanna's party in the Riverlands, and since at least two of the men with him are warriors nearly without peer (Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent), and he has the authority of the Iron Throne on his side besides, Lyanna's retainers flee or give her up.  Here's where your ramblings bread down and mine doesn't.  Rhaegar, having kidnapped Lyanna, now needs a place that is isolated; he needs both for her not to be found, and for her not to be able to get away or get word to her family.  In your version, Rhaegar can take her literally anywhere, because she's a willing participant and won't inform anyone of her whereabouts anyway, so there's no risk of being caught.  There is no reason for someone at, say... a random house in Oldtown to know who she is, because why would they?  And if she's not telling, then she's just some mistress of Rhaegar's that he understandably wants hidden.  But if she's not willing, then he needs her in a place where she can't tell anyone her identity and arouse suspicion.  

So anyway, he takes her to a tiny tower as far from her home as he possibly can.  Remember, there is no war going on now, and no real possibility of one, because the abduction only indirectly sets off the war (e.g. if Aerys promised justice to RIckard for Rhaegar's actions, everything would've been hunky dory).  So again... a lot of your justification for their location goes out the window.  Again.  So Rhaegar takes this young woman, this girl, into the middle of nowhere, with no medical help, no nothing.  And here is where my argument gets stronger still - because his concern is the kid.  He's a melancholy guy, it's not really in him to love or be happy, to paraphrase Barristan.  But he cares about saving the world.  So he thinks prophecy is on his side, which means, one way or another, the kid is going to live.  And guess what!  The kid does live, despite the mother's death, so give Rhaegar a gold star for being a little genre savvy.  So here they are in Dorne.  Now, if Rhaegar's true aim is to protect Lyanna, then he should send a troop of guards down there to lock down the Tower.  Because twenty men are better than three, however skilled the three.  And here's another place your argument breaks down.  Because he doesn't do that.  He leaves three Kingsguard down there, who have nothing to recommend them as a defensive force except their loyalty to him personally.  He doesn't have to worry about them blabbing to a friend or merchant, who might get the rumor out.  Even though 15 men would be better to protect Lyanna, they are less reliable when it comes to imprisoning her.  They might be susceptible to gold or rewards or anything at all, but Rhaegar can have iron confidence in these Kingsguard, who after all we're perfectly content to watch Aerys burn people alive and rape his wife without a peep.

So off Rhaegar goes, and dies.  Maybe he says Lyanna's name as he dies because he loves her, maybe because he wants her to give birth to the savior of the world.  Who knows, it is literally entirely unimportant, because Rhaegar's actions aren't what we care about, because he's got total agency throughout this story.  Your ENTIRE argument hinges on the fact that Lyanna is clutching blue winter roses as she dies, and that furthermore, she is clutching them because they symbolize her love of Rhaegar, as opposed to the equally plausible idea that they symbolize something else, or nothing at all.

The circumstantial evidence ALL points to Lyanna being an unwilling occupant of the Tower of Joy,  Every single argument has a hole in it a mile wide.  One could be coincidence.  But at every step, Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions make no sense if Lyanna is a willing participant here.

[Jaak]

17 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

OK.  Lets break down all the ways this is wrong.

First off, Jon is not an heir.  I cannot stress this enough.  The fact that Lyanna is an important noble lady with royal blood in her veins means diddly squat when it comes to succession rights.  

It means something but not much. Aegon Unworthy needed a long campaign to make Daemon a plausible candidate, and Unworthy ruled as King. And it was Daemon Blackfyre himself and Aegon´s support that was quoted by his supporters - Daena the Defiant was not a particularly important part of Blackfyre claim.

17 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Baby Aegon is the heir, and most likely Viserys after him (the various Great Council's have set a pretty iron precedent on female inheritance).  

Females were mentioned as having been considered, several times. But few would back Rhaenys over Viserys. Well, Dorne.

17 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Jon is nothing.  This isn't a matter of conflicting opinions, this is fact.  Jon is no more eligible to inherit the Iron Throne or anything of Rhaegar's or Lyanna's, than Gendry is a candidate for the Iron Throne.  Being a bastard is explicitly in order to exclude one from succession.  The only way to change this is through royal decree (e.g. Robb declaring Jon Snow a trueborn Stark and heir to the North), which is such a significant event that we have to assume it did not happen, else we'd have heard of Aerys legitimizing Jon.

There was that marriage of Maegor the Cruel. But its validity was never decided, as Maegor had no living children.

17 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Secondly, your logic is downright awful.  Why would Lyanna and Rhaegar expect a war?  Their running off didn't start a war, Aerys' immolating of Rickard and Brandon, and calls for the execution of Ned and Robert, do.  So your timing is, again, just wrong.  They're not escaping to safety, and anyway, there is no reason the Red Keep is any more or less safe than the Tower of Joy, which sits on the edge of the Stormlands.

If Aerys were on Rhaegaer´s side, Lyanna should be safe at Red Keep or Dragonstone. Suggesting that Aerys was not on Rhaegaer´s side.

17 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Why the Tower of Joy?  You say it's safe, but from what?  There is nothing to be "safe" from since when they go, there is no war and no threat.  But if I don't want my hostage being found, well, a tower in the middle of nowhere makes perfect sense.

I know what the small, important difference is.  And it's an awful point.  Look, is Lyanna planning on spending the rest of her life on the run (from people who don't want to kill her or harm her, no less)?

A tower in the middle of nowhere also makes sense if she was hiding deliberately.

What they may have been waiting for is to negotiate to get Lyanna´s elopement accepted as status quo. Robert marries someone else and no longer wants Lyanna back et cetera. At some point it might be safe to come out with a bastard.

17 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

  Now, if Rhaegar's true aim is to protect Lyanna, then he should send a troop of guards down there to lock down the Tower.  Because twenty men are better than three, however skilled the three.  And here's another place your argument breaks down.  Because he doesn't do that.  He leaves three Kingsguard down there, who have nothing to recommend them as a defensive force except their loyalty to him personally.  He doesn't have to worry about them blabbing to a friend or merchant, who might get the rumor out.  Even though 15 men would be better to protect Lyanna, they are less reliable when it comes to imprisoning her.  They might be susceptible to gold or rewards or anything at all, but Rhaegar can have iron confidence in these Kingsguard, who after all we're perfectly content to watch Aerys burn people alive and rape his wife without a peep.

After all, there are at a minimum the 4 other, non-Kingsguard armed men who participated in the kidnapping. What became of those 4?

What´s unclear is why these 3 Kingsguard were loyal to Rhaegaer personally, and how Rhaegaer made sure they were. After all, their vows were to Aerys, not Rhaegaer. They might have delivered Lyanna to Aerys, or left Tower of Joy to go protect Rhaella and Viserys on Dragonstone.

[cpg2016]

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

If Aerys were on Rhaegaer´s side, Lyanna should be safe at Red Keep or Dragonstone. Suggesting that Aerys was not on Rhaegaer´s side.

Well, Aerys is on the side of his dynasty, and Rhaegar is part of that.  But that's one place Rhaegar can't go.  Why not Oldtown?  Why not, and I can't stress this enough, anywhere else!?  Aerys ends up burning Brandon and Rickard Stark alive when they challenge Rhaegar in absentia, so as far as family loyalty goes, Aerys may not trust Rhaegar, but his son clearly takes precedence over justice or fair trial or anything ethical.

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

Aegon Unworthy needed a long campaign to make Daemon a plausible candidate, and Unworthy ruled as King. And it was Daemon Blackfyre himself and Aegon´s support that was quoted by his supporters - Daena the Defiant was not a particularly important part of Blackfyre claim.

Well, I think it's implied that the pure Targaryen descent was a plus, whereas Daeron II's court and kids would be part Dornish.  And yes, the argument is that Aegon IV implicitly legitimized Daemon by giving him Blackfyre.  It's telling that most Blackfyre support comes from secondary lords who might be considered to be making a case to supplant their Lord Paramount (Peakes, Reynes, Yronwoods are all Houses noted to be very powerful in their own right, and also challengers to the traditional supreme House in their respective kingdoms), suggesting Daemon's support was as much opportunism as principled belief.

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

A tower in the middle of nowhere also makes sense if she was hiding deliberately.

What they may have been waiting for is to negotiate to get Lyanna´s elopement accepted as status quo. Robert marries someone else and no longer wants Lyanna back et cetera. At some point it might be safe to come out with a bastard.

This would make sense, if Rhaegar showed any sign of "negotiating" with anyone.  He disappears entirely and only reappears back into political life at large when he's tracked down by Gerold Hightower and told of the severity of the Rebellion.

And again, in some ways, your approach denies Lyanna agency even worse that her being a captive.  She might be a bit of a free spirit and tomboy, but she isn't an idiot; she's an incredibly important noble lady who understands the burdens and responsibilities she bears.  It's not very likely that she's reconciled herself to a life of shame, with a bastard, severely injuring her family's prospects.  How many noble women do we see who actually have bastard kids?  Lysa Tully genuinely loves Petyr.  Daena the Defiant is already being secluded to a life apart anyway, and seems to have genuinely loved Aegon IV before he went to shit.  It's one thing to say that Lyanna was excited to elope with Rhaegar and have a wild couple weeks (which we do noble women do, or... maybe not the eloping, but the sex) and then call it a day and hope it blows over.  But from the moment she gets pregnant, her situation is clear; Rhaegar is married, with trueborn kids.  Her child will never inherit, will always be despised, never welcome anywhere.  She'll be a pariah herself.  Certainly, she'd want significant medical aid when actually giving birth, as it's extremely dangerous in pre-modern societies.  She gets none of this.

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

After all, there are at a minimum the 4 other, non-Kingsguard armed men who participated in the kidnapping. What became of those 4?

Likely they are dismissed before Rhaegar heads south, so fewer people can spill the beans about where he's hiding.

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

What´s unclear is why these 3 Kingsguard were loyal to Rhaegaer personally, and how Rhaegaer made sure they were. After all, their vows were to Aerys, not Rhaegaer. They might have delivered Lyanna to Aerys, or left Tower of Joy to go protect Rhaella and Viserys on Dragonstone.

Well, Arthur Dayne is considered to be his only friend and confidante.  And, being the heir to a mystical legacy and the bearer of a legendary sword, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the one person Rhaegar has confided in and who believes him.  And while their vows are to Aerys, the king is allowed to assign their protection to others; his family, friends, whoever.  Without a command from Aerys, there is no reason for them to do anything other than obey Rhaegar.  We know they obey orders unquestioningly (hence, being okay with the burnings and rapings and murderings).  So, they have an order from Rhaegar to guard/keep watch over Lyanna.  Sure, they might go back to protect Aerys (not to Dragonstone; they don't know anyone is even there), but that would mean violating an order in the hopes of fulfilling one that wasn't even made.  That seems a pretty easy choice.  I'm sure if Aerys had contacted them and said "get your ass up here" they'd have done it.

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

Females were mentioned as having been considered, several times. But few would back Rhaenys over Viserys. Well, Dorne.

Considered and subsequently ignored.  The Great Council of 101 AC set an "iron precedent" and the Great Council of 233 summarily dismissed the female claimants.

[Jaak]

6 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Well, Aerys is on the side of his dynasty, and Rhaegar is part of that.  But that's one place Rhaegar can't go.  Why not Oldtown?  Why not, and I can't stress this enough, anywhere else!?

Yes, that´s an argument in favour of kidnapping - a cooperative fugitive is easier to hide than a captive.

Catelyn does promptly get caught in King´s Landing. Sansa is so far reasonably hid as Alayne... and even at Eyrie, not Sheepshit.

6 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

It's not very likely that she's reconciled herself to a life of shame, with a bastard, severely injuring her family's prospects.  How many noble women do we see who actually have bastard kids?  Lysa Tully genuinely loves Petyr.  Daena the Defiant is already being secluded to a life apart anyway, and seems to have genuinely loved Aegon IV before he went to shit.  It's one thing to say that Lyanna was excited to elope with Rhaegar and have a wild couple weeks (which we do noble women do, or... maybe not the eloping, but the sex) and then call it a day and hope it blows over.  But from the moment she gets pregnant, her situation is clear; Rhaegar is married, with trueborn kids.  Her child will never inherit, will always be despised, never welcome anywhere.  She'll be a pariah herself. 

Well, for Brackens and Blackwoods, post of King´s open mistress was so appealing that Bethany was outright pushed into it.

A Stark daughter or a Baratheon wife may be slightly higher positions than a royal mistress. Meaning Rickard and Brandon would have been less delighted than Brackens.

[TMIFairy]

Lyanna could had resorted to Westeros' wonder brew MoonTeaTM.

Or jumped down stairs.

Or used other "home remedies" for an unwanted pregnancy.

And, as last resort, there must be some sort of coat hanger equivalent ...

The "glamour" of Royal Mistress to the girl's House also IMO hinges on the King's prestige/ power. At that time Rheagar sole grounds for fame were making teen girls cry with his singing (Justin Bieber for President! or [shudders in terror] - Michel Teló, the First of His Name) and winning a fixed tournament where the Kingsguard eliminated the competition and threw their jousts to him.

A reasonably willing Stark mistress to Aegon the Conqueror, Maegor the Cruel, or Aegon Vth is one thing. A mistress to a harp-plonking fop is another.

[cpg2016]

9 hours ago, Jaak said:

Well, for Brackens and Blackwoods, post of King´s open mistress was so appealing that Bethany was outright pushed into it.

A Stark daughter or a Baratheon wife may be slightly higher positions than a royal mistress. Meaning Rickard and Brandon would have been less delighted than Brackens.

Right, but the difference here is the Brackens and Blackwoods (and other families of royal mistresses) pushed their daughter into it in the hopes of royal favor.  In this instance, the Starks are going to be furious and pissed about this and it's going to cause a whole massive political shit storm.  As it ends up doing.  So those aren't really comparable scenarios.  If we had Rickard Stark pushing Lyanna to hang around court all day and try to attract Rhaegar's interest, that would be an entirely different thing.  But... we can be reasonably sure Rickard isn't interested in that avenue of political advancement.

[Jaak]

14 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Right, but the difference here is the Brackens and Blackwoods (and other families of royal mistresses) pushed their daughter into it in the hopes of royal favor.  In this instance, the Starks are going to be furious and pissed about this and it's going to cause a whole massive political shit storm.  As it ends up doing.  So those aren't really comparable scenarios.  If we had Rickard Stark pushing Lyanna to hang around court all day and try to attract Rhaegar's interest, that would be an entirely different thing.  But... we can be reasonably sure Rickard isn't interested in that avenue of political advancement.

Delena drew down a shitstorm on Robert and herself. And she did not really make a career as Robert´s mistress. She ended up married to a household knight, and would probably have done better as an unsoiled Florent daughter. It is agreed that she consented anyway.

Lyanna´s kidnapping would have brought a shitstorm. It was not implausible that Aerys might have dealt with it - at political costs, like Aegon IV had and Robert would. Rhaegaer, and Lyanna, might have hoped the matter would be dealt with. Aerys being Aerys managed to make matters worse.

[cpg2016]

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

Delena drew down a shitstorm on Robert and herself. And she did not really make a career as Robert´s mistress. She ended up married to a household knight, and would probably have done better as an unsoiled Florent daughter. It is agreed that she consented anyway.

Yet another example of a noblewoman engaging in a little nookie, but studiously avoiding the complications of a pregnancy.

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

Lyanna´s kidnapping would have brought a shitstorm. It was not implausible that Aerys might have dealt with it - at political costs, like Aegon IV had and Robert would. Rhaegaer, and Lyanna, might have hoped the matter would be dealt with. Aerys being Aerys managed to make matters worse.

Lyanna's kdinapping DID start a shitstorm.

And whether Aerys could have dealt with it, even if sane and reasonable, is... debatable.  What can he do?  He's pissed off two of his major noble Houses, implicitly pissed off the Tullys and Arryns as well, and has long since alienated the Lannisters.  And any solution which makes the North happy almost certainly alienates Dorne.  Aerys was fucked from Day 1 - I mean, he handled it as poorly as possible, but still, was fucked.

Again, all of this points to Lyanna being abducted and not eloping willingly.  The rest of the evidence, though circumstantial, is equally damning.  The fact pattern supports kidnapping, because at every step of the way, what Rhaegar and Lyanna do does not make sense if they're co-conspirators in this, so to speak.  In a vacuum, it might not be crazy to be at the Tower of Joy, or to have only three Kingsguard knights protecting it.  But when you put the story together, you realize that at every step of the way they make a bad or illogical decision; it's only if Lyanna is an unwilling participant that every piece of the puzzle fits perfectly into place.

Also, Rhaegar is a nutjob in his own way.  He's so convinced he's protected by prophecy that he'll do anything.

[Jaak]

58 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Yet another example of a noblewoman engaging in a little nookie, but studiously avoiding the complications of a pregnancy.

Edric Storm?

[cgrav]

The central question here is: which events could NOT have happened if Lyanna had acted on her own free will? if every single event can be explained as both kidnapping and eloping then there's no affirmative argument.

As for why Lyanna had to be hidden, I'd say it was needed for secrecy. Rhaegar had been plotting a coup of sorts, and setting Elia aside would have damaged the fragile alliance with Dorne. Likely, Rhaegar wouldn't have wanted to reveal his new kingdom until everything was in place. Maybe he was planning to establish court at Starfall?

And I've yet to read an explanation for why Ned has no negative thoughts of a Rhaegar. Robert is the only character who actually acts as if Lyanna was kidnapped.