Second Strongest Houses?

[FylkirKarl]

What are the seconds strongest houses of each region? Some might be obvious like Dayne to the Martells or Hightower to the Tyrells, but what about the North? It seems even after taking the losses from the WOT5K and the Red Wedding that the Manderly's still have more forces than Bolton and a lot more wealth, but Bolton is paraded as the second strongest house of the North. The Frey's might be the second strongest in the Riverlands, but what about Mallister? They have a port, and seem to be pretty strong too, the only thing the Frey's seem to have on them is manpower of around 4000, and the many sons of Walder. The Westerlands is a little difficult as the destroyed Reyne's were their biggest rival, but who rivals them now? The Reach obviously has the Hightowers, and the Dayne's seem like the second strongest of Dorne. The Stormlands has an issue as it appears they don't have a rival or second strongest house, if there is one it would be one of the Marcher Lords, maybe Swann? Or even Estermont, I don't know. The Iron Islands seem to be between Goodbrother and Harlaw as Harlaw is the richest of the Ironborn, but Goodbrother is said to be the "mainlander" Ironborn house with three cadet branches, rich mines, and a lot of ships.  For the Vale, it's most obviously going to be the Royce's or if not them, the Graftons who control Gulltown, one of the biggest cities of Westeros.

I'm going to not count the Crownlands or the Free Folk BTW.

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

House Yronwood is frequently mentioned as House Martells rival, not House Dayne.

I would assume the Boltons have more manpower, and the Dreadfort propably weighs in too, but yeah it should be pretty close.

The natural rivals to Riverrun seem to be the Twins and Harrenhal, but not Seagard.

The Hightowers and Royces seem to be the most obvious ones, but why do come back to House Dayne? I can´t remember anyone saying anything like that. It´s House Yronwood that´s messing with every historical event while the Daynes seem to sit on their hands for the most part. And no, badassness and a space sword is not the same as power.

How about the house of Tarth? I don´t think it´s ever mentioned but Evenfall Hall is a strong castle and Tarth a big island. Other than that I would go with some Marcher Lord too, propably Caron because I like their castle.

I´d go with Harlaw over Goodbrother because you can always build more ships for money.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Manderly.

[Lord Vance II]

North - Manderly. Bolton is probably 3rd, and not really that close in my opinion, but they have powerful friends and caught everyone off guard. If it was straight up Manderly vs. Bolton, Manderly would whoop that ass. 

Riverlands - probably Frey, or Blackwood or Bracken depending on how they're doing at the time. I don't think the Mallister's are that strong, their port is in a bad spot and their fleet is mainly defensive. Vance has two branches, and whoever has Harrenhal is automatically pretty high up there. Riverlands are definitely the toughest to judge. 

Westerlands - Crakehall maybe? Tywin kind of made sure there was no strong number 2. 

Dorne - Arianne straight up says Lord Yronwood is the second most powerful in Dorne. Dayne probably isn't far behind, but I think we get a warped view of house Dayne because they're so legendary, but not for being wealthy or powerful.

Reach - Hightower. 

Stormlands - Tough. Probably Estermont. Penrose is pretty strong right? Tarth maybe. I never got the impression the marcher lords were that powerful, just old, storied and bloodied. 

Vale - Royce. Especially now that the cadet branch has the Bloody Gate. 

Iron Islands - Harlaw. Goodbrother is close. 

I know you didn't ask, but I think Velaryon is probably the strongest house in the Crownlands excluding the LPs of other places. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

Just now, Free Northman Reborn said:

Manderly.

His speeches are way better than Stark speeches though

[Lord Vance II]

2 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Manderly.

His speeches are way better than Stark speeches though

Better than damn near anybody's, for my money. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

Just now, Lord Vance II said:

Better than damn near anybody's, for my money. 

I'd take a Manderly wooden nickel over a Lannister mine. I've read 2-3 things that gave me chills.

This did. The other one I remember is Tam from the WOT pyre scene

[Coolbeard the Exile]

North - Manderly

Riverlands - Frey

Vale - Royce

Iron Islands - Harlaw

Westerlands - Crakehall

Crownlands - Velaryon

Stormlands - Caron

Reach - Hightower

Dorne - Yronwood

[Coolbeard the Exile]

Where do you get Dayne from and and marcher lords are said to have the best soldiers in all of westeros.

[Lord Vance II]

4 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

marcher lords are said to have the best soldiers in all of westeros.

So? They very well could, but it doesn't mean they wield a ton of power and influence. Skilled soldiers don't mean much in peace time except high costs. The Hightowers avoid war by their own admission but they're still the clear-cut number 2, and could probably rival their LP. Manderly troops aren't said to be anything special either.

One of the Marcher lords could very well be the second strongest in the Stormlands, it's a tough region to call. But I don't think the call should be on martial skill. Wealth is one of the biggest factors, and I don't think we've been lead to believe any of the Marcher lords are particularly rich. 

I'm sure the Vale would argue against that claim too. 

[FylkirKarl]

I assume Dayne, because they're one of the most notorious houses in Westeros, and I'm still new to the book series so I haven't read far enough to where the Dorne arc is. The Stormlands are difficult, because we don't hear a lot about them, Robert, Stannis, and Renly are the only major Stormland characters we see other than Brienne while we get loads of Riverland, Northern, Ironborn, Westerlands, Reach, Dorne characters etc. I don't know which Stormlands house is strongest, probably one of the Marcher Lords, but theres always Tarth and Estermont so I don't know.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

Things can change quickly Connington might have been a rival to the Baratheons had they not lost all their land.

Went should be a lot stronger with large fertile land but Harrenhall is ruinous to run and maybe can't afford enough men at arms.

Plum might be one for the west they managed to bag a Targ bride so should be higher than many of their piers 

[TMIFairy]

1 hour ago, FylkirKarl said:

What are the seconds strongest houses of each region?

I do not think that a "the no.2 House of this Kingdom is X" answer is possible.

We simply do not know enough.

IMO we can only make lists of "Houses suspected to be the most powerful after the ruling House of a given Realm".

E.g. in the North we can assume (or can we?) that the Mountnain Clans, Houses Mormont, Reed, Hornwood, Flint, Locke are BEHIND the "top dogs" which would be Bolton and Manderly, maybe Karstarrk, Umber, Ryswell and/or Dustin.

[Lord Vance II]

3 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Things can change quickly Connington might have been a rival to the Baratheons had they not lost all their land.

Yeah, I wanted to say Connington if it wasn't for recent events. 

[Coolbeard the Exile]

7 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

So? They very well could, but it doesn't mean they wield a ton of power and influence. Skilled soldiers don't mean much in peace time except high costs. The Hightowers avoid war by their own admission but they're still the clear-cut number 2, and could probably rival their LP. Manderly troops aren't said to be anything special either.

One of the Marcher lords could very well be the second strongest in the Stormlands, it's a tough region to call. But I don't think the call should be on martial skill. Wealth is one of the biggest factors, and I don't think we've been lead to believe any of the Marcher lords are particularly rich. 

I'm sure the Vale would argue against that claim too. 

Bro we know very little of the wealth of most houses but when the world of ice and fire specifically says that the marcher lords breed the baddest motherfuckers in westeros we should assume that they are pretty strong.

[Lord Vance II]

2 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

IMO we can only make lists of "Houses suspected to be the most powerful after the ruling House of a given Realm".

And the first on that list for a given realm would be the second most powerful, no?

2 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

E.g. in the North we can assume (or can we?) that the Mountnain Clans, Houses Mormont, Reed, Hornwood, Flint, Locke are BEHIND the "top dogs" which would be Bolton and Manderly, maybe Karstarrk, Umber, Ryswell and/or Dustin.

I'd agree with that assessment though. We just know far more about Northern politics than any other region. We know enough about most to judge a number 2 though, most are pretty explicit (Hightower, Royce, etc.)

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

I do not think that a "the no.2 House of this Kingdom is X" answer is possible.

We simply do not know enough.

IMO we can only make lists of "Houses suspected to be the most powerful after the ruling House of a given Realm".

E.g. in the North we can assume (or can we?) that the Mountnain Clans, Houses Mormont, Reed, Hornwood, Flint, Locke are BEHIND the "top dogs" which would be Bolton and Manderly, maybe Karstarrk, Umber, Ryswell and/or Dustin.

What do you mean? We´ve basically been told who is the Nr. 2 in each region. Of course some are more clear than others and for some regions it can´t really be an answered, but for others it´s quite clear. You could ask any character that grew up in the Vale and they´re going to tell you it´s House Royce. So appearently, it is possible.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

7 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

Yeah, I wanted to say Connington if it wasn't for recent events. 

If Jon had killed Robert before the battle of the bells I would say he becomes the new LP, at least until he gets burnt alive that is

[TMIFairy]

15 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

And the first on that list for a given realm would be the second most powerful, no?

IF we have enough data on that

My order of Bolton and Manderly was arbitrary and for all we know it could be Manderly and Bolton.

Can we really say that Blackwood is stronger than Bracken? And that either is more powerful than Frey?

Besides "hard data" - e.g. the number of soldiers - to judge a House's "power" we have "soft data" - impossible to quantify prestige, influence, etc.

E.g the Frey are a fresh House and whatever their wealth and military might is, they may be ranked behind other houses as long as the "hard data" is in the same ballpark.

And even the "hard data" is hazy - the Boltons have more soldiers but Manderly's are better equipped - so which is "more mighty"?

IMO the "power" of Houses simply CANNOT be determined by "scientific" methods. Much more an "art" than science.

It is like porn - you know it when you see it

 

[Lord Vance II]

13 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Bro we know very little of the wealth of most houses but when the world of ice and fire specifically says that the marcher lords breed the baddest motherfuckers in westeros we should assume that they are pretty strong.

Turns out Swann is the second most powerful house in the Stormlands, according to the RPG (which I guess is semi-canon?). And they got wealth and influence by controlling the Slayne river. So fair enough. 

But to be fair, the others are having a pretty rough go of it. 

House Caron - Lord killed with no heir but a bastard, stripped of land and title after the Blackwater.

House Dondarrion - Lord is dead x8, we have no idea who's in charge or really anything about the house beyond Beric. 

House Selmy - No reason to think they're that powerful and were even believed to be landed knights until Arstan Selmy is mentioned. They have Barristan but that's about it.