Second Strongest Houses?

[TMIFairy]

Vale - can we say, with absolute certainty - that Royce trumps Redfort? What about the Gulltown Arryns - rich but "not respectable" - maybe they have enough money to hire all the hedge knights/sellswords they need to beat all the other Houses?

In the Reach - Hightower trumps Redwyne or Florent? Or are all comparable?

You guys do what you want and try to narrow it down to a singe House - I am content with up to half a dozen "top dog" Houses per Realm

[TMIFairy]

36 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Bro we know very little of the wealth of most houses but when the world of ice and fire specifically says that the marcher lords breed the baddest motherfuckers in westeros we should assume that they are pretty strong.

Yeah, that's is a fantastic measure of a "Houses power" - We Breeds Them Badass - that's what they should put on their sigil for everybody to know that it makes them the no.2 House!

[TMIFairy]

1 hour ago, Lord Vance II said:

Dorne - Arianne straight up says Lord Yronwood is the second most powerful in Dorne.

I like your post - sensible and mature

After reading your contribution to this thread I think we think along pretty much the same lines. Great Minds and all that

[Lord Vance II]

15 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

IF we have enough data on that

My order of Bolton and Manderly was arbitrary and for all we know it could be Manderly and Bolton.

Can we really say that Blackwood is stronger than Bracken? And that either is more powerful than Frey?

I mean if you're bound and determined to ignore all context we're given and insist on seeing the lord's spreadsheets, than I guess you can't judge who's second most powerful. 

And c'mon, there's no real argument against the power of the Hightowers. If you ask me the Tyrells are lucky the Hightowers never challenged the for the Reach. Everything we know of the Hightowers smacks of rich, powerful and influential. No one doubts the Redwynes are rich but the Hightowers are next-level. 

We'll never get an in-world list complete with incomes, troop numbers and castle specs. But we have 6 thick books to make judgments from. Context gives us at least enough to pick out some top dogs under the LPs, and in most cases there is a clear No. 2. 

[TMIFairy]

7 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said:

 Context gives us at least enough to pick out some top dogs under the LPs, and in most cases there is a clear No. 2. 

I've been telt

[Adam Yozza]

The Vale: Easy, it's Royce of Runestone. They were the only major First Men kingdom to challenge the Andal's in the Vale (Long live Robar II) and even know they retain significant power. In terms of pure manpower they can probably actually raise more than the Arryn's themselves, but are likely less well off financially.

The Reach: Also easy. Hightower without a doubt. They can easily raise at least 1/10th of the Reach's total manpower and are the second wealthiest house in the region (possibly the richest). They are currently bound by marriage to House Tyrell, Florent, Rowan, Fossoway and Redwyne.

Dorne: Arriane outright states that the Yronwood's are the second most powerful house in Dorne.

The North: A little trickier, but it boils down to Manderly and Bolton. The Manderly's are richer by far, and their troops better equipped but from what we've seen they've raised far less troops than Bolton. However, that being said Manderly's lands are far more vast and fertile than Bolton's and they control the only city in the North; combined with Manderly's statement that even after his losses in the war he can raise more heavy horse than any other house in the North (including Bolton, who took next to no losses at all) it seems a fair conclusion that if given the time, Manderly could raise a greater force of men than Bolton. So Manderly is the North's no. 2

The Riverlands: Tough to call. Blackwood, Bracken, Mallister, Vance and Mooton were all Kings at one point and can seemingly raise similar forces. Mooton has more wealth from controlling a large town, but a lot of land was stripped from them for supporting Aerys. Mallister has a fleet but its small and constantly under threat from the ironborn. Piper can seemingly compete with these house's in strength but not in influence. The Lord of Harrenhal should be the second most powerful; lots of income and a lot of land from which to raise men (meaning a significant army) but the house dies out after a few generations and maintaining Harrenhal is costly. So I'd agree with most poster's and say Frey, despite their relative youth; their quite wealthy, have quite a bit of land on either side of their green fork, have two castle's (now three) and one of the largest forces of men in the Riverlands. Plus they're tied to nearly every prominent house on some level

The Iron Islands: Harlaw. Goodbrother's close and might have more land, but the Harlaw's rule the richest and most densely populated, meaning more ships and more raiders. They pretty much have the monopoly on horse on the iron islands and produce the most metals from mining. Politically, they have close ties to house Greyjoy.

The Crownlands: House Velaryon. Right behind the ruling house; who have the oppulent King's Landing and the very impressive Royal Fleet; they have a large fleet themselves and a lot of political influence; it's declined somewhat since the days of Alyn Oakenfist and dropped sharply after Robert won the Throne, and it's wealth never recovered from the sack of High Tide and the divertion of trade to King's Landing. Still, they outstrip pretty much every other house by quite a bit. Only the Ryker's could compete really.

The Stormlands: One of the harder ones to judge; I'd say House Swann is probably the second most powerful. None of the Stormlords are particularly rich, they have no major cities or ports and trade by sea isn't really viable. Estermont is poor and has little ground forces, but I think they have the largest fleet in the Stormlands (small though it is). Tarth was another option, as were some of the larger mainland houses like Buckler and Fell. If it hadn't been for their sharp fall in power after RR I'd say Connington. As it is, the no. 2 position would have to go to the Marcher Lords; who produce the best archers and professional soldiers in Westeros and not an insignificant number of them. Trant and Selmy are small by comparrison and house Dondarrion; though not weak; does not appear to be the strongest. Leaving Swann and Caron. The RPG, which is semi-canon, is the only way to judge it on this one and it says Swann.

The Westerlands: Also difficult. Until about 260 AC I'd say Reyne but that's not really an option anymore. Brax, Crakehall and Marbrand are all quite prominent militarily. I'd say Serrett and Lefford are quite wealthy based on the names of their castle's (Silver Hill and Golden Tooth) but I'd say it's the Lannisport Lannister's that are the second most powerful. They have the third largest city in Westeros and probably a decent number of troops.

 

 

 

[drhenry]

North-Historically Bolton-Today probably Manderly given that they have larger lands and control the largest city in the North and should thus have larger troops and are far richer. 

Iron Islands-Harlaw-Richest House, complete control of the second largest island while the Goodbrothers share Great Wyk with the Farwynds, Sparrs and Merlyns. 

Westerlands-This IMO is the hardest to say once it would have been undoubtedly the Reynes. Today I would argue it is house Lefford or House Crakehall but unlike in other regions neither has the strength or courage to challenge house Lannister. 

Riverlands-House Frey, they are the richest of the Tully Bannerman and have the largest army, in terms of influence since they are a relatively young house are most likely overshadowed by other houses.

Vale-House Royce, and ancient house controlling lands in the Vale proper one of the most fertile places in the world and as such the Royces are rich and powerful. 

Reach-House Hightower-The second richest house in all of Westeros and can summon more troops then house Tyrell directly can.

Stormlands-House Swann-I'm a little surprised everyone was having trouble with this one, the Swann's seat of Stonehelm is one of the strongest castles not just in the stormlands but in the Seven Kingdoms. The Swanns control the major river in the Stormlands and are a very rich house. TWOIAF or Tyrion in ACOK (I can't remember) tells us that the Durrandons and Baratheons after them always treaded lightly with the Swanns a distinction not offered to any other Stormlander house.

Dorne-Easily House Yronwood, the Yronwoods are rich and probably like the Hightowers can summon more troops than their liege lord can directly. Arianne tells us as much in AFFC

Crownlands-Once House Velaryon especially when the Targaryens ruled and especially in the first 150 years of their rule today whoever holds Dragonstone which happened to be stannis. If your not counting Dragonstone I would say House Rykker in control of Duskendale.         

 

[That guy]

North: Manderly, most heavy horse and the richest settlement in the north. 

Riverlands: Freys, I'm pretty sure its mentioned that they are the Tully's strongest bannermen. 

Iron Islands: Not totally sure but I'm going to go with Harlaw. 

Vale: Royce probably 

Westerlands: Farmen of Fair Isle maybe 

Reach: Yeah Hightower 

Dorne: Yronwood 

Stormlands: Swann 

[John Doe]

North: Bolton

Riverlands: Frey

Vale: Royce

Reach: Hightower

Iron Islands: Goodbrother

Westerlands. Hard to tell. I'm guessing Lefford, Banefort or Crakehall.

Dorne: Yronwood

Stormlands: Buckler, maybe? Or Swann? Dondarrion? I'm just guessing. .

[marsyao]

9 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

North - Manderly. Bolton is probably 3rd, and not really that close in my opinion, but they have powerful friends and caught everyone off guard. If it was straight up Manderly vs. Bolton, Manderly would whoop that ass. 

 

Manderly was the richest house in the North, even richer than Starks, but they were from the Reach, northern Lords still saw them as outsiders, so it was no way that House Manderly was the second strongest house in the North

[Lord Vance II]

23 hours ago, marsyao said:

Manderly was the richest house in the North, even richer than Starks, but they were from the Reach, northern Lords still saw them as outsiders, so it was no way that House Manderly was the second strongest house in the North

The Starks welcomed the Manderlys, set them up with probably the second-most strategic point in their realm and allowed them to build the only city in the north and gain the power and wealth that comes with it. If the Kings of Winter could welcome the Mermen so easily, I'm sure their bannerman would follow suit. 

Plus they came at least 900 years ago. They've been Northmen as long as anyone can remember and their presence with White Harbor would only help most northern lords by providing an easier trade route. We've never seen any northern lord complain about the Manderlys past calling Wyman a fatass, and he owns that. 

And in any case, power isn't a popularity contest. 

[The Hoare]

Dorne: Yronwood according to Arianne herself, and we know that most of the dornish fertile land is under their control

Reach: Hightower

North: Manderlys, they control the one of the few cities in Westeros. The Boltons are the number 1 now, considering that they have the Hornwood lands, Winterfell, are the LPs and most of the northern army that didn't died in war are Bolton men

Riverlands: Freys. They won a lot with the Red Wedding and they have a well positioned bridge.

Iron Islands: Harlaw, the Goodbrothers are powerfull, but they don't really rule over all of Great Wyk.

Stormlands: House Swann, considering that they have lands near the Elayne, which is the major river of the region

Vale: the Royces, though the Graftons are near

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

• Riverlands - Frey
• Westerlands - ?
• Reach - Hightower
• North - Bolton
• Dorne - Yronwood
• Iron Isles - Harlaw
• Vale - Royce
• Stormlands - ?

[marsyao]

On 7/22/2017 at 4:23 PM, Lord Vance II said:

The Starks welcomed the Manderlys, set them up with probably the second-most strategic point in their realm and allowed them to build the only city in the north and gain the power and wealth that comes with it. If the Kings of Winter could welcome the Mermen so easily, I'm sure their bannerman would follow suit. 

Plus they came at least 900 years ago. They've been Northmen as long as anyone can remember and their presence with White Harbor would only help most northern lords by providing an easier trade route. We've never seen any northern lord complain about the Manderlys past calling Wyman a fatass, and he owns that. 

And in any case, power isn't a popularity contest. 

Don't you understand why Starks gave that important land to outsider like Manderlys? That was because any North Lord had White Harbor, he would be so rich and powerful that it would be just a matter of time he would challenge Stark authority, but Stark did not need to worry about Manderlys, they were forever outsiders, besides their own house and Manderly bannermen, they had no sanding among Northern Lords. By the way, that was the same reason why Targaryens gave the Reach to house Tyrell, bypassing many more qualified Reach Lords

I understand that Manderlys had settled in the North for 900 years, but in the world of song of ice and fire, that was still too short of a time for Manderlys be considered as Northern men.

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 hours ago, marsyao said:

Don't you understand why Starks gave that important land to outsider like Manderlys? That was because any North Lord had White Harbor, he would be so rich and powerful that it would be just a matter of time he would challenge Stark authority, but Stark did not need to worry about Manderlys, they were forever outsiders, besides their own house and Manderly bannermen, they had no sanding among Northern Lords. By the way, that was the same reason why Targaryens gave the Reach to house Tyrell, bypassing many more qualified Reach Lords

I understand that Manderlys had settled in the North for 900 years, but in the world of song of ice and fire, that was still too short of a time for Manderlys be considered as Northern men.

Half a dozen or more houses held the white knife for an aggregate thousand years. The Manderlys were basically a no risk no brainer. No chance of ever winning the allegiance of the North but their success only built up the starks. Any failure would have been a continuance of everything that had been happening for eons.

[TMIFairy]

Very interesting theory that giving White Harbour to the Manderly's would not be nurturing a snake on one's chest, as the Manderly's would forever be "outsiders".

Indeed a brilliant move by the Starks!

[Nittanian]

The Starks gave the Wolf's Den to the exiled Manderlys, who then developed the new city of White Harbor in their lands. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

21 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Very interesting theory that giving White Harbour to the Manderly's would not be nurturing a snake on one's chest, as the Manderly's would forever be "outsiders".

Indeed a brilliant move by the Starks!

That's basically what both WOIAF and the wiki say.

[TMIFairy]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That's basically what both WOIAF and the wiki say.

I have gaps in my knowledge

[Lord Vance II]

On 7/23/2017 at 7:46 PM, marsyao said:

Don't you understand why Starks gave that important land to outsider like Manderlys? That was because any North Lord had White Harbor, he would be so rich and powerful that it would be just a matter of time he would challenge Stark authority, but Stark did not need to worry about Manderlys, they were forever outsiders, besides their own house and Manderly bannermen, they had no sanding among Northern Lords. By the way, that was the same reason why Targaryens gave the Reach to house Tyrell, bypassing many more qualified Reach Lords

I understand that Manderlys had settled in the North for 900 years, but in the world of song of ice and fire, that was still too short of a time for Manderlys be considered as Northern men.

Fair enough I suppose. I still think the Starks were much more generous than they had to be to the Manderlys and that shows some level of trust. I'd also say in the future (if there is one) the events of the series would tie the Manderlys to the north more, with losing a son at the RW and them presumably providing a big part of the final Northern army against the Others.