Company of the Rose?

[FylkirKarl]

Do we know anything about the Company of the Rose? Are they still considered Northmen or are they basically Essosi with a Northern Heritage? Why didn't they sell their services to Robb Stark during his war of independence? Are they led by a Stark or Snow, perhaps the descendant of Brandon Snow, bastard brother of Torrhen Stark? Will they come into play later in the story, perhaps a descendant of Brandon Snow with his implied three weirwood arrows, and a mission to finish what Brandon was planning to do? I don't think George would put a vision of a man cutting three branches off of a weirwood tree, implied to be Brandon Snow, for nothing. What do you guys think?

[cpg2016]

30 minutes ago, FylkirKarl said:

Do we know anything about the Company of the Rose? Are they still considered Northmen or are they basically Essosi with a Northern Heritage? Why didn't they sell their services to Robb Stark during his war of independence? Are they led by a Stark or Snow, perhaps the descendant of Brandon Snow, bastard brother of Torrhen Stark? Will they come into play later in the story, perhaps a descendant of Brandon Snow with his implied three weirwood arrows, and a mission to finish what Brandon was planning to do? I don't think George would put a vision of a man cutting three branches off of a weirwood tree, implied to be Brandon Snow, for nothing. What do you guys think?

We don't know anything.  I think this was just some worldbuilding detail GRRM threw into the WOIAF.  Unlike the Golden Company, they're voluntary exiles, and they've also been in Essos a lot longer (e.g. more time to "go native").

I think that if they had some role to play, they'd have been mentioned by now in the mainline books.

[TMIFairy]

47 minutes ago, FylkirKarl said:

Why didn't they sell their services to Robb Stark during his war of independence?

I think that there was:

Not. Enough. Time. For. That. To. Happen.

Northern indepedence under King Robb lasted only a few months.

1 - News of Robb's "cry of independence" get from interior of Riverlands to a port.

2 - News reaches Essos.

3 - News spreads across Essos and reaches the Company of the Rose in Essos, wherever it may be.

That can take months alone. The Company of the Rose may be under contract. Might be far inland, away from any ports.

Before they can do anything they learn that Robb has been croaked.

 

 

 

 

[Lord Vance II]

14 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

 I think this was just some worldbuilding detail GRRM threw into the WOIAF

Pretty much. I had to check the Wiki to even know what you were talking about.  

Company of the Rose is also a really weird name for a group of self-exiled Northmen. Company of the Wolf? Winter's company? something with the First Men?

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

Maybe a random nod to the War of the Roses?

[Philokles]

Would love the company to appear in an Arya chapter. Might be the impetus to return home if she can persuade them to retake Winterfell for her.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Could Robb afford to hire them? Did he try to contact them? Did he even know they exist?

Naming it the Company of the Rose gives a nod to the Bael the Bard story from North of the Wall. Seems like just worldbuilding, but we'll have to wait and see if GRRM brings them in. Illyrio made a comment about Dany being able to give the GC what the Blackfyres never could in getting them home. I'd find it funny if she took the CotR home instead.

[Sea Dragon]

Wow. Good discussion. They will be defeated and wiped out by Daenerys. They always rejected dragons and now they will continue to run or die because the last dragon has returned. 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 7/21/2017 at 10:29 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Could Robb afford to hire them? Did he try to contact them? Did he even know they exist?

Naming it the Company of the Rose gives a nod to the Bael the Bard story from North of the Wall. Seems like just worldbuilding, but we'll have to wait and see if GRRM brings them in. Illyrio made a comment about Dany being able to give the GC what the Blackfyres never could in getting them home. I'd find it funny if she took the CotR home instead.

Just found this doing some research into events. I like the association to Bael as this is where the Rose thing comes from as far as we know. 

Company of the Rose, of all things to call it. Seems to beg attention to it.

Very interesting subject though and why i did a search for any threads. Stuck me as odd and quite a statement from the North about Targaryen/Valyrians, and dragons.  So much so they would actually give up their home to not live under their rule. That's impressive. 

What is it the North knows with their wall and such. What happened in the past to garner such strong feelings? What was happening with Torhenn and his time really? He had to have had something to say about a large chunk of his own people straight leaving him.

And  what about Torhenns Square? Why did he build that? The Targaryen's didn't go North at that point that we are told of. Who was he protecting from? And what was he protecting there? Why not just hold up at Winterfell? Could it be tied to the Company of the Rose?

 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 7/21/2017 at 9:24 AM, cpg2016 said:

We don't know anything.  I think this was just some worldbuilding detail GRRM threw into the WOIAF.  Unlike the Golden Company, they're voluntary exiles, and they've also been in Essos a lot longer (e.g. more time to "go native").

I think that if they had some role to play, they'd have been mentioned by now in the mainline books.

Possibly, but as women went with them. They could theoretically keep it in the family as the Targaryens did.

[Deepbollywood Motte]

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Just found this doing some research into events. I like the association to Bael as this is where the Rose thing comes from as far as we know. 

Company of the Rose, of all things to call it. Seems to beg attention to it.

Very interesting subject though and why i did a search for any threads. Stuck me as odd and quite a statement from the North about Targaryen/Valyrians, and dragons.  So much so they would actually give up their home to not live under their rule. That's impressive. 

What is it the North knows with their wall and such. What happened in the past to garner such strong feelings? What was happening with Torhenn and his time really? He had to have had something to say about a large chunk of his own people straight leaving him.

And  what about Torhenns Square? Why did he build that? The Targaryen's didn't go North at that point that we are told of. Who was he protecting from? And what was he protecting there? Why not just hold up at Winterfell? Could it be tied to the Company of the Rose?

 

Do we know that Torrhen Stark build the castle? Torrhen is/was a popular name in the North. Maybe the lord Tallhart who build the castle was named Torrhen...

[AlaskanSandman]

11 minutes ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

Do we know that Torrhen Stark build the castle? Torrhen is/was a popular name in the North. Maybe the lord Tallhart who build the castle was named Torrhen...

Literally nothing is given about the castle. So im gonna speculate away  Torrhen is a popular name now. No reason to think the name predates Torrhen Stark as we are given no other Torrhen older than him. Likely who the other's are named for. So probably the Torrhen who built it. Also as it as little to no history, im guessing it's a newer castle. Unlike say, Karhold of the Karstarks. 

[Deepbollywood Motte]

5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Literally nothing is given about the castle. So im gonna speculate away  Torrhen is a popular name now. No reason to think the name predates Torrhen Stark as we are given no other Torrhen older than him. Likely who the other's are named for. So probably the Torrhen who built it. Also as it as little to no history, im guessing it's a newer castle. Unlike say, Karhold of the Karstarks. 

Well, why would Torrhen 'the king who knelt' Stark be the first Torrhen? Names don't just appear like that. 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

Well, why would Torrhen 'the king who knelt' Stark be the first Torrhen? Names don't just appear like that. 

..............................What???? You mean, like Aegon I, Maegor I, Aenys I, Jaehaerys I, etc? Im pretty sure Sunshine as a human name was created in the 70's and so on. That is literally how names are created. Out of no wheres based on some other meaning.

Exp. My name is David.

From the Hebrew name דָּוִד (Dawid), which was probably derived from Hebrew דוד (dwd) meaning "beloved". David was the second and greatest of the kings of Israel, ruling in the 10th century BC. Several stories about him are told in the Old Testament, including his defeat of Goliath, a giant Philistine.

Derived from the word for beloved. Out of no wheres some one decided one day to make it up. 

[Deepbollywood Motte]

15 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

..............................What???? You mean, like Aegon I, Maegor I, Aenys I, Jaehaerys I, etc? Im pretty sure Sunshine as a human name was created in the 70's and so on. That is literally how names are created. Out of no wheres based on some other meaning.

Exp. My name is David.

From the Hebrew name דָּוִד (Dawid), which was probably derived from Hebrew דוד (dwd) meaning "beloved". David was the second and greatest of the kings of Israel, ruling in the 10th century BC. Several stories about him are told in the Old Testament, including his defeat of Goliath, a giant Philistine.

Derived from the word for beloved. Out of no wheres some one decided one day to make it up. 

Those names may be very old Valyrian names. The David one may be true but that may be more of a title which became a name (like Augustus). Torrhen isn't really a title.

But let's not derail this thread into a name discussion. Like you said, it is speculation. Everything on that topic is speculation since we don't have enough info on the topic.

[AlaskanSandman]

14 minutes ago, Deepbollywood Motte said:

Those names may be very old Valyrian names. The David one may be true but that may be more of a title which became a name (like Augustus). Torrhen isn't really a title.

But let's not derail this thread into a name discussion. Like you said, it is speculation. Everything on that topic is speculation since we don't have enough info on the topic.

Well, lets really not derail off The Company of the Rose, which is tied to Torrhen Stark. 

[Lord Varys]

Guys, Stannis has plans to hire 20,000 sellswords to man the castles along the Wall. The names of the free companies George dropped in TWoIaF are very likely to show up if Stannis' people actually hire any of those sellswords. 

The Company of the Rose is rather likely to return to Westeros in the process of that, assuming they still exist (which is quite likely, considering that Yandel is not likely to namedrop (m)any defunct/disbanded companies in the section we are talking about.

I mean, if there are still (m)any descendants of Northmen in that company they sure as hell are likely to return to the North to help the people in the hour of their greatest need.

The possible explanation as to why they didn't show up when Robb seceded would simply be that they were trapped in some contract down in the Disputed Lands or farther inland - said, in the Lorathi region, the Axe, etc. and/or that nobody approached them with a contract. As sellswords they are not likely to fight for free.

As a name, the Company of the Rose could also be a hint to Jon Snow. You know, because of the whole winter roses thing.

[Kandrax]

Does the company still exists?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

16 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Just found this doing some research into events. I like the association to Bael as this is where the Rose thing comes from as far as we know. 

Company of the Rose, of all things to call it. Seems to beg attention to it.

Very interesting subject though and why i did a search for any threads. Stuck me as odd and quite a statement from the North about Targaryen/Valyrians, and dragons.  So much so they would actually give up their home to not live under their rule. That's impressive. 

What is it the North knows with their wall and such. What happened in the past to garner such strong feelings? What was happening with Torhenn and his time really? He had to have had something to say about a large chunk of his own people straight leaving him.

And  what about Torhenns Square? Why did he build that? The Targaryen's didn't go North at that point that we are told of. Who was he protecting from? And what was he protecting there? Why not just hold up at Winterfell? Could it be tied to the Company of the Rose?

 

I think fortifying more of the North likely had something to do with the Others, or since TS is closer to the coast with making sure the Ironborn stayed where they belonged.

The Wall, or walls, are definitely about the Others. And it's possible that Torrhen got some kind of info from Aegon (that we don't know about) regarding a coming Targaryen prince who would save the world from the return of said icy jerks from Farther North, and that's part of why he cooperated. He had plenty of motivation in not having the North's population decimated by dragonfire, but add in the fact that they didn't know when the Others would return, the fact that the North is the first line of defense should the Night's Watch fail--and greatest supporters of the NW--and then fold in a heaping handful of promised prince, and you've got a compelling argument for playing let's make a deal.

Torrhen couldn't have said much about a bunch of his people leaving. If they'd straight out rebelled then it would have been different, but a migration elsewhere he couldn't stop. It's doubtful that they asked his permission anyway. We don't know how many left, or how long it took them to do so. Could have been gradual, so as to keep public comment to a minimum. And it may not have been a large enough chunk that many noticed. Given the reason they had, it's likely that entire families were involved, much like when Aenar Targaryen left Valyria. If you don't have stray relatives left to gossip about where people went and why they left, the news won't spread as quickly. 

It would be pretty cool if one of those extinct Northern families turns out to be alive and well with the CotR and comes back.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Why did they name themselves the company of the rose. That sound more like a Reach name for a sellsword company?