Why did Lysa agree to a trial for Tyrion?

[John Doe]

For all we know, she wanted to keep the Vale out of the war. But if Bronn had been killed, this would have been impossible. Remember, a whole bunch of Vale lords were present, so Lysa would have been forced to punish Tyrion for his crimes. Since Tywin went to war over the kidnapping of Tyrion alone, peace with the Lannister or the crown would have been impossible. So was she just this stupid? Or do you think she had a plan B in case Tyrion died?

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

Lysa couldn´t refuse Tyrions demand in public without forever soiling her honor and insulting the gods, Lysa may be stupid but she should know how the world works. Everyone volunteered to fight and Lysa deliberately picked an old, out of shape candidate, like she wanted to lose. And Bronn did kill him pretty easily.

No one says you actually have to kill you prisoner if he loses anyway, she could´ve just sent him back to his cell. Maybe her Lords wouldn´t like it but it seems entirely within Lysas character to not give two cents about that.

[zandru]

Great question! I'm looking forward to seeing what people think.

Okay, take what follows with a grain of salt, as I misread the question...

My guess is yes, she's that stupid. But also, Lysa wrote (at Littlefinger's instigation) the secret Cat-code letter which implicated "the Lannisters" as having killed her husband Jon Arryn (which she had actually done herself at Littlefinger's instigation.) What better way to keep the ruse going than to order the killing of a conveniently at-hand Lannister (who had been implicated by -- guess who??) -- as being behind the attack on little Bran. If I recall correctly, Lysa was for immediate execution of Tyrion, but he demanded a trial.

[The Sleeper]

At the time we thought she was just stupid, but she really wanted a scapegoat for Jon Arryn. Hence the torture to get him to confess and hence the public spectacle. Her uncle and sister couldn't make sense of her behavior, but knowing that she killed her husband it makes sense.

[cpg2016]

Yeah, she had to give him a trial.  It is likely that she has absorbed the haughty attitude of the Vale nobility and assumed a common sellsword couldn't beat a knight.  Vardis Egen gets chosen because he's Jon Arryn's captain of the guard and therefore probably a pretty good fighter, despite being in his late 40's or early 50's.

She can't keep him forever, because the longer it takes to give him that trial, the more likely it is the Lannister political situation improves, or worst case, Jaime Lannister somehow gets close and Tyrion can more reasonably ask him to champion his trial by combat.

EDIT: The text also makes it seem like Lysa has no effing clue what her actions are doing in regards to her letter to Cat; she's doing it at Littlefinger's behest despite not understanding the political ramifications, so she may be totally honest when she complains to Cat about her bringing a Lannister, and therefore the war, to her doorstep.

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

EDIT: The text also makes it seem like Lysa has no effing clue what her actions are doing in regards to her letter to Cat; she's doing it at Littlefinger's behest despite not understanding the political ramifications, so she may be totally honest when she complains to Cat about her bringing a Lannister, and therefore the war, to her doorstep.

I agree with that, Lysa is not a player, she´s a pawn. She did what LF wanted and that´s pretty much it. She wanted nothing to do with the war, she didn´t want Tyrion at the Eyrie and she certainly didn´t want to provoke Tywins wrath. I don´t think she had any delusions about Vardis Egen, who ended up being killed handily by Bronn.

[The Sleeper]

6 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

EDIT: The text also makes it seem like Lysa has no effing clue what her actions are doing in regards to her letter to Cat; she's doing it at Littlefinger's behest despite not understanding the political ramifications, so she may be totally honest when she complains to Cat about her bringing a Lannister, and therefore the war, to her doorstep.

Lysa's actions may have not made sense at the time, but we didn't know she had murdered her husband. Her distress likely stemmed from the fact that Tyrion could provide an alibi for his siblings for the murder of Jon Arryn. Lies hold up only as long as people don't start comparing stories. Also entertaining multiple suitors was a way for her to avoid having to get married. I don't thinknahe was near as irrational as she appeared to be, or at least not about everything.

[cpg2016]

4 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Lysa's actions may have not made sense at the time, but we didn't know she had murdered her husband. Her distress likely stemmed from the fact that Tyrion could provide an alibi for his siblings for the murder of Jon Arryn. Lies hold up only as long as people don't start comparing stories. Also entertaining multiple suitors was a way for her to avoid having to get married. I don't thinknahe was near as irrational as she appeared to be, or at least not about everything.

Well, the marriage thing is something she understands.  This is classic Penelope, or Elizabeth I - entertain a bunch of eligible suitors, keep them all interested in the reward but competing among themselves, and gain yourself the independence you crave by playing everyone else off against each other.  That kind of politics is something Lysa would understand, being a highborn lady from an important family.

But given the state of their marriage, it's highly debatable that Jon Arryn tells Lysa anything about the affairs of the realm, and Littlefinger certainly isn't giving his true reasoning.  He's probably just saying that all this stuff she's doing for him is so they can be together.  Lysa doesn't seem like an idiot, but certainly not a genius either - a normally intelligent woman with some unfortunate emotional blind spots.  My point isn't that we as readers don't understand her motivations, but that she might not have a motivation.  Hence she can seemingly be playing the game of thrones in alerting Cat to the Lannisters "murdering" her husband, while simultaneously being outraged that Cat is essentially bringing the war to her doorstep.  She may honestly not even make the connection; in one instance she's just Littlefinger's stooge, and may be so happy to do anything for him that she isn't even cognizant of the potential effects of her actions, and in the other, functioning as an independent Lady of the Vale, may be more aware of the political complications that Tyrion's presence causes.

[kissdbyfire]

Tyrion is highborn, and from one of the most powerful families in Westeros, if not the most powerful at that point. She can't refuse his demand w/o dishonouring house Arryn. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 hours ago, John Doe said:

For all we know, she wanted to keep the Vale out of the war. But if Bronn had been killed, this would have been impossible. Remember, a whole bunch of Vale lords were present, so Lysa would have been forced to punish Tyrion for his crimes. Since Tywin went to war over the kidnapping of Tyrion alone, peace with the Lannister or the crown would have been impossible. So was she just this stupid? Or do you think she had a plan B in case Tyrion died?

She was just going to have him killed, but he appealed to her highborn status and she gave him a fair trial in the eyes of the gods. Besides, the bloody gate is nigh impenetrable so she does not have to worry about a land invasion   

[Gregor'sBrainTumor]

She may well have refused it if the exchange between her and Tyrion had not happened in front of the entire court, but I don't think any refusal would have been for Tyrion's sake or out of any fear as to what could happen if Tyrion died while under her roof.  Once she had him detained in the first place she had already crossed the Lannister line; she provoked Tywin, Jaime, and House Lannister generally.  If Lysa was worried at all for Tyrion's safety she wouldn't have starved him in the sky cells where death was close at hand.  So, Tyrion asking for a trial by combat doesn't  really change anything for Lysa other than put her at risk of losing face in front of the court; she's indifferent to his death.

[cgrav]

I think she viewed it as the safest course and unlikely to change the outcome. The trial would give a veneer of legitimacy, but I don't think she was concerned with that.

Her treatment of Tyrion clearly indicates she didn't care about provoking the Lannisters. War is very hard to bring to the Vale's topography, and even if Tywin did come, Lysa was probably crazy enough to disregard her people's welfare and stay holed up in the Eyrie. Bronn was the rogue chess piece. 

Another layer to the politics is that accusing, trying, and executing a Lannister would have lent legitimacy to the lie that they killed Jon Arryn. Should war have become inevitable for the Vale, Lannister guilt would likely have united the Vale, North, and Riverlands. This coalition appears to be Littlefinger's immediate goal throughout, and he's forced to use marriage alliances after his first ruse fails.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Other than the fact he's legally entitled to a trial? Well he's Tywin's son and Lysa is scared shitless of Tywin

[cgrav]

51 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Other than the fact he's legally entitled to a trial? Well he's Tywin's son and Lysa is scared shitless of Tywin

Well, legal obligations are a pretty quaint (and anachronistic) notion in a feudal society. "Law" is little more than what's enforced. And as far as Lysa knows, there are virtually no threats to her personally as long as she's in the Eyrie. If she were actually afraid of Tywin, she'd have told Cat to get Tyrion out of the Vale ASAP and try him somewhere else. And if not for Bronn, it would actually have been politically astute to execute Tyrion. 

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

Well, legal obligations are a pretty quaint (and anachronistic) notion in a feudal society. "Law" is little more than what's enforced. And as far as Lysa knows, there are virtually no threats to her personally as long as she's in the Eyrie. If she were actually afraid of Tywin, she'd have told Cat to get Tyrion out of the Vale ASAP and try him somewhere else. And if not for Bronn, it would actually have been politically astute to execute Tyrion. 

Lysa never wanted war. Killing Tyrion means war. It´s not that complicated.

It was never her ambition to be politically astute, nor did she show any interest in supporting her sister politically. She just wanted her son safe, that is the only real motivation I have ever seen in Lysa, besides her obsession with LF.

[Universal Sword Donor]

18 minutes ago, cgrav said:

Well, legal obligations are a pretty quaint (and anachronistic) notion in a feudal society. "Law" is little more than what's enforced. And as far as Lysa knows, there are virtually no threats to her personally as long as she's in the Eyrie. If she were actually afraid of Tywin, she'd have told Cat to get Tyrion out of the Vale ASAP and try him somewhere else. And if not for Bronn, it would actually have been politically astute to execute Tyrion. 

She was either afraid of Tywin OR there is accepted law. She could have just tossed him out the moon door or left him in the cells. She did neither.

[elder brother jonothor dar]

"I thank you, my good lady, but I see no need to trouble Lord Robert," Tyrion said politely. "The gods know the truth of my innocence. I will have their verdict, not the judgment of men. I demandtrial by combat."

"Lady Lysa had no honorable way to deny him, even if she'd wished to," Lord Hunter intoned ponderously."

"Beric Dondarrion turned back to the Hound. “You stand accused of murder, but no one here knows the truth or falsehood of the charge, so it is not for us to judge you. Only the Lord of Light may do that now. I sentence you to trial by battle.”

The Mad Huntsman spat. “I say we take him back to Stoney Sept and put him in a crow cage.” “Yes,” Arya said. “He murdered Mycah. He did.” “Such an angry squirrel,” murmured Greenbeard. Harwin sighed. “R’hllor has judged him innocent.”

So the answer seems to be honor and gods.  There is an agreed custom where the gods favour the righteous and it is dishonerable to deny that right

"There were trials. Of a sort. Lord Rickard demanded trial by combat, and the king granted the request. Stark armored himself as for battle, thinking to duel one of the Kingsguard. Me, perhaps. Instead they took him to the throne room and suspended him from the rafters while two of Aerys's pyromancers kindled a blaze beneath him. The king told him that fire was the champion of House Targaryen. So all Lord Rickard needed to do to prove himself innocent of treason was . . . well, not burn."

Not honourable especially as he had the best KG ever on hand but the Mad King could not give a fuck

[cgrav]

14 hours ago, Ser Tristan Flowers said:

Lysa never wanted war. Killing Tyrion means war. It´s not that complicated.

It was never her ambition to be politically astute, nor did she show any interest in supporting her sister politically. She just wanted her son safe, that is the only real motivation I have ever seen in Lysa, besides her obsession with LF.

Her first plan was to hold a kangaroo trial judged by her colicky lordling, if a confession couldn't be coerced by a stay in the sky cell, and she fully expected him to come up guilty in the trial by combat. Thus Lysa's intent was most assuredly to see Tyrion dead, and it's unclear if she had the capacity to think about the political consequences. Tyrion was able to force her hand only because her entire court was watching, and it would have undermined her and Littlefinger's scheme if honest courtiers went blabbing about how Lady Arryn executed a likely innocent Lannister. If she really wanted to avoid conflict with the Lannisters, she'd have set him free the moment he was brought into the Eyrie. But her initial false accusation in Jon Arryn's death belies any claim that she wanted peace with Lannisters.

 A trial, whether by little Robert or combat, would have provided some sheen of legitimacy. I can't say that would have effective, but Tyrion's presence was obviously problematic for Lysa-Finger's plan, and some sort of trial was the only course between a summary execution and the possibility of Tyrion proving her allegations false. In her mind, her best bet was to frame him.

As for the "legal" side of it... honor only compels the honorable, and nothing strikes me as honorable about Lysa Arryn, who murdered her high lord husband and then tried to frame an innocent person for it, as well as nearly murdered her own niece later on. Her motive in the moment was to avoid Tyrion making a liar of her in front of all the lords of the Vale and her own sister. Any honest trial would have revealed Tyrion's innocence, but her prior framing of the Lannisters had put her in a box and she had no other choices that maintained the lie.

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

Her first plan was to hold a kangaroo trial judged by her colicky lordling, if a confession couldn't be coerced by a stay in the sky cell, and she fully expected him to come up guilty in the trial by combat. Thus Lysa's intent was most assuredly to see Tyrion dead, and it's unclear if she had the capacity to think about the political consequences. Tyrion was able to force her hand only because her entire court was watching, and it would have undermined her and Littlefinger's scheme if honest courtiers went blabbing about how Lady Arryn executed a likely innocent Lannister. If she really wanted to avoid conflict with the Lannisters, she'd have set him free the moment he was brought into the Eyrie. But her initial false accusation in Jon Arryn's death belies any claim that she wanted peace with Lannisters.

 A trial, whether by little Robert or combat, would have provided some sheen of legitimacy. I can't say that would have effective, but Tyrion's presence was obviously problematic for Lysa-Finger's plan, and some sort of trial was the only course between a summary execution and the possibility of Tyrion proving her allegations false. In her mind, her best bet was to frame him.

So you´re saying Lysa would be able to analyze and actively participate in Littlefinger plans, unlike anyone else actually, but at the same time is too stupid to realize that killing Tyrion would mean war with Tywin? That´s ridiculous.

She was in a dilemma when Cat brought Tyrion up the Eyrie. She never wanted Tyrio there but she couldn´t just refuse her sisters allegations, wich were too serious and obviously originated from Lysas own letter. Locking Tyrio away was the only option. If she just wanted to see him dead no matter what, she could´ve just sent someone to shove him out of his sky cell at night and call it suicide. Nobody would question it, except the Lannisters of course, and that might result in war. When Tyrion demanded a trial by combat, her best chance was to pick an old, out of shape champion, hope Tyrion wins and then dies on the way down through the mountains.

[cgrav]

3 minutes ago, Ser Tristan Flowers said:

So you´re saying Lysa would be able to analyze and actively participate in Littlefinger plans, unlike anyone else actually, but at the same time is too stupid to realize that killing Tyrion would mean war with Tywin? That´s ridiculous.

She was in a dilemma when Cat brought Tyrion up the Eyrie. She never wanted Tyrio there but she couldn´t just refuse her sisters allegations, wich were too serious and obviously originated from Lysas own letter. Locking Tyrio away was the only option. If she just wanted to see him dead no matter what, she could´ve just sent someone to shove him out of his sky cell at night and call it suicide. Nobody would question it, except the Lannisters of course, and that might result in war. When Tyrion demanded a trial by combat, her best chance was to pick an old, out of shape champion, hope Tyrion wins and then dies on the way down through the mountains.

No I don't think she fully understood the political consequences, but she did understand her own guilt and that she needed to avoid being outed as a liar. She had many chances to avoid conflict with the Lannisters, starting with the letter to Cat. Why frame the Lannisters and flee if she doesn't want or anticipate conflict? (yes that was Littlefinger's doing, but that only goes to my point that she didn't quite grasp the politics). Why keep Tyrion prisoner at all? She could have set him free right away and simply told the court that it was some other Lannister lackey like Pycell or Lancel who killed Jon Arryn. If I recall, Tyrion wasn't even in KL at the time, which makes him a particularly bad choice for framing... unless she intended for him to die before saying so.

For someone who wanted Tyrion to stay alive, she certainly did and said a lot of things to make sure he didn't. I don't think we can say that her choice of Ser Vardis was meant to lose - she initially denied Tyrion a champion and was about to make him face Ser Vardis on his own.

Her primary motivation was to avoid suspicion with regard to her own guilt, and to do that she needed more than simply to kill Tyrion. She needed a confession or a verdict. Faking his suicide would have silenced him, but not provided any cover for her own malfeasance. 

And I really don't think she feared war. She made a point of saying many times that "the Eyrie is impregnable", and GRRM goes out of his way to describe an extremely arduous journey from the Crossroads, including a number of places where an army would have to pass in single file. As much as I normally hesitate to rely on descriptions of landscapes to make a point, GRRM really hits us over the head with it on this one: the Eyrie is safe from invasion.