ser gerold Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 I think jon is the balance between ice and fire. To make a sword you need both ice and fire, which is jon himself. Even in the nights watch pledge, there is a line 'Iam the sword aganist the darkness'. Dany could be Azor Ahai, but she needs lightbringer which aren't her dragons. Its jon. Jon sharpening his skills as a steward and burning his hand saving mormont is the first tampering. This is the point where he belives in wights and all other stuff. Later, becoming a covert in the wildlings and having conflicting feelings towards them and the watch, falling in love with ygritte and escaping with her arrows in his heart is the second tampering. Him becoming the commander and ultimately dying is the third tampering. I know that prophecies are not reliable and parallels can be drawn to multiple characters in asoiaf. But I think jon's birth has a purpose and once he comes back from the dead, Dany needs him and he needs her to join forces against the walkers. What do you think of this theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graydon Hicks Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 i think both jon and dany are the prince that was promised, both half of the need hero. not saying that when they meet, the heavens will part and they begin to glow as trumpets sound from on high, but they both fit the bill and are needed to fight the Others. seems to fit in my head on what i think will happen to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weirwoods Eyes Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 I used to dislike the idea that the dragons were Lightbringer. But I have come to feel less conservative regarding the sword being an actual sword. But I admit I still like my swords to be swords. Even if I'll accept the imagery works fine for Dragons too. I don't see Jon as a possibility for Lightbringer though. As I think he is TPTWP. As is Dany. Both fit the hero's role and I'm not sure there needs to be one single Prince. So to speak. I really hope we get a bit more information on the prophecy soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Who or what is Nissa Nissa in this theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Tristan Flowers Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: Who or what is Nissa Nissa in this theory? I could only think of Val in this scenario. Jon seems eager enough to thrust his burning sword into her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: Who or what is Nissa Nissa in this theory? His ambitions, expectations, hopes, honor and love. His arc is long tale of leaving anything that mattered to him behind. ETA it is telling that he has burnt right hand to go a burning sword, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 I think it's possible for Jon to be LB. The NW too. And if LB is a literal sword, why would it need to be re-forged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezza86 Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Theres been a couple of instances of flaming swords already in the book. Thoros has used wildfire to set his sword on fire but being made from steel it eventually broke. Then we see dondarrion fight the hound with a flaming sword that he ignited from his own blood. But again it's made of steel and the fire causes it to degrade and it breaks. Now if only we had some sort of fireproof steel that could withstand being set on fire.... oh wait. So lightbringer will have to be a valyrian steel sword. In my opinion all the pieces are moving into place to have oathkeeper and widows wail reforged back into the stark ancestral sword. I would literally bet my house that lightbringer is a flaming sword, it makes no sense for lightbringer to be a person. And I think Jon will have to kill dany as his Nissa nissa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Just now, Nezza86 said: Theres been a couple of instances of flaming swords already in the book. Thoros has used wildfire to set his sword on fire but being made from steel it eventually broke. Then we see dondarrion fight the hound with a flaming sword that he ignited from his own blood. But again it's made of steel and the fire causes it to degrade and it breaks. Now if only we had some sort of fireproof steel that could withstand being set on fire.... oh wait. So lightbringer will have to be a valyrian steel sword. In my opinion all the pieces are moving into place to have oathkeeper and widows wail reforged back into the stark ancestral sword. I would literally bet my house that lightbringer is a flaming sword, it makes no sense for lightbringer to be a person. And I think Jon will have to kill dany as his Nissa nissa. I have asked this before, even if Lightbringer is a literal sword, where does it say it needs to be forged again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harlaw's Book the Sequel Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 Jon being Lightbringer has always intrigued me as does the idea that PTWP might be another name for Lightbringer rather than Azor Ahai. This is how I think Jon's "forging" played out in parallel to Azor Ahai's forging of Lightbringer. The Azor Ahai figure in the Jon scenario is Rhaegar. Rhaegar's first attempt at forging Lightbringer was him thinking that he himself was the PTWP. Rhaegar's dying at the Trident parallels Azor Ahai's first sword bursting when it was tempered in water. Rhaegar's second attempt to forge the sword was Aegon. And like Azor Ahai's second sword that shattered and split when plunged into a lion's heart for tempering, Aegon was "shattered" at the hands of Gregor Clegane, who as part of the Lannister forces would be referred to as a lion. Include Tywin's culpability, and Aegon's death is caused by lion(s) regardless. Finally, Jon was the result of the third attempt with Lyanna in the role of Nissa Nissa. This time when the sword/Jon is tempered, the sword/Jon survives though coming at the cost of Nissa Nissa/Lyanna's sacrifice. And just Nissa Nissa's "...blood and her soul and her strength and her courage when into the steel," Lyanna's blood, soul, strength, and courage went into Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 17 hours ago, ser gerold said: I think jon is the balance between ice and fire. To make a sword you need both ice and fire, which is jon himself. There is no ice in forging 17 hours ago, ser gerold said: Even in the nights watch pledge, there is a line 'Iam the sword aganist the darkness'. the watch could be lightbringer too. There was a major thread in here on it 17 hours ago, ser gerold said: Dany could be Azor Ahai, but she needs lightbringer which aren't her dragons. are you sure? because dragons fit kinda perfectly 17 hours ago, ser gerold said: Jon sharpening his skills as a steward and burning his hand saving mormont is the first tampering. This is the point where he belives in wights and all other stuff. Later, becoming a covert in the wildlings and having conflicting feelings towards them and the watch, falling in love with ygritte and escaping with her arrows in his heart is the second tampering. Him becoming the commander and ultimately dying is the third tampering. I know that prophecies are not reliable and parallels can be drawn to multiple characters in asoiaf. But Tampering and Tempering are different, and since he is not on fire, like, say, Beric's sword or Danys dragons, that is another hole in the theory 17 hours ago, ser gerold said: I know that prophecies are not reliable and parallels can be drawn to multiple characters in asoiaf. But I think jon's birth has a purpose and once he comes back from the dead, Dany needs him and he needs her to join forces against the walkers. What do you think of this theory? Jon, as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is literally the song of ice and fire. He fits the prince that was promised pretty well and Azor Ahai too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 Not everything is the same in these books. There are a lot of false parallels to be cautious of. A lightbringer is someone who brings the light. Stannis' fancy lightbright sword is a type of light bringer. But it is false. What brings the light? Dawn . What brings the dawn? The sun. What happens when the sun is "killed"? There is a long night. When did the long night start again in the story? When Bowen Marsh and co. stabbed Jon, the "sun" analogy of the story, he is also a Sun's son, and he was felled (set). When will light be brought back to the story? When Jon "rises" harder and stronger (tempered) with the Dawn in his hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 19 hours ago, ser gerold said: Dany could be Azor Ahai, but she needs lightbringer which aren't her dragons. The dragons are a perfect lightbringer for the Dany side of the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 There is the chance that the story of Nissa Nissa is entirely symbolic of making the ultimate sacrifice for a purpose. As such it has and can apply to multiple characters in the story. Jon included. His last challenge wae to sacrifice the love for his sister for his vows. I do think that it has a more literal application. The dragons fit, as Dany even if unwittingly sacrificed a husband and a child to get them. The other idea I had is that it might not be the particular sword but the hand that wields it. Remember Jon's burnt hand. Some sort of fire magic that requires a Valyrian steel blade because an ordinary one wouldn't survive it. Such as Beric setting his sword on fire. We have multiple examples of swords being destroyed after being set on fire. Vic and his burnt left hand might be an attempt at creating an AA, but it is not his weapon hand. It wouldn't be the first time a red priest has attempted to force a prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezza86 Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: I have asked this before, even if Lightbringer is a literal sword, where does it say it needs to be forged again? Yeah I have a couple of theories of how lightbringer will come about from Oathkeeper and Widows Wail, only because the size of ICE is too big to be useful as a battle weapon. So I agree from that point of view it wouldnt make sense to reforge them both. But the pieces are in place for it to happen. We have a smith (although he's never made a sword), someone in the citadel who could stumble across the reforging process, Melisandre could perform spells, the brotherhood without banners will have Brienne and OK and it looks like shes luring Jaime to them maybe he'll be made to recover Widows Wail. So who knows maybe Jon will face off with the Nights King from dragon back and therefore it doesnt matter that lightbringer ends up being a two handed great sword. Alternatively maybe only one of the two swords will be LB but it will take the actions of both to ignite its flame. In terms of textual evidence of why the sword must be reforged, the AA story has him make the sword three times and temper it in different ways. I agree it could just be the final tempering that matters and none of the other details are important in that story. But I have a feeling that the AA story is already occuring without us realising it. It probably started when Ilyn payne chopped Neds head off with ICE. Ned was a kings blood sacrifice that represents water. The next will be Jaime and/or Cersei as the lion and the final I think will be Dany as Nissa Nissa, but she chooses to sacrifice herself which is the big difference in the story. So if the books are hiding the creation of lightbringer in plain sight then it would be poetic for the blades to be different at each stage, the same as the myth. I agree that it may not be neccessary though. perhaps Oathkeeper is used to kill Dany shortly after Cersei is killed with widows wail and because they are from the same steel maybe they both ignite. I prefer the idea of ICE being reforged and given back to Jon though Why do people think a person can be lightbringer? or the nights watch? or the dragons? Imagine if the end of the series had someone just burn the Nights King with the dragons. Its LOTR all over again, why didnt the eagles just fly frodo to mount doom? When dany finds out about the White Walkers she can just fly over them and kill him... game over. Seven books for that would be seriously disappointing. The second worst theory is the nightswatch as LB, how are they supposed to be ignited? Are they supposed to beat the NK because they are slightly more upbeat than the first few books because people have started taking them seriously and joined their ranks? Regardless the wall is bound to fall at somepoint and when that happens the Nighstwatch are doomed, Sam could end up being the last of them. And i just dont see how Jon or Dany or anyone else could be LB, I dont see any plausible end game where lightbringer is a person. Lets not get started on Dawn haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 @Nezza86, my question is, if Lightbringer is a literal sword, why does it need to be forged again? Meaning, it has been forged, it's a sword, it's ready. Why the need to go through the whole process again? Where in the text do we get any info on Lightbringer having been destroyed, shattered, broken, so that it would need to be forged again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 So if Jon or danny is whatever What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezza86 Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said: @Nezza86, my question is, if Lightbringer is a literal sword, why does it need to be forged again? Meaning, it has been forged, it's a sword, it's ready. Why the need to go through the whole process again? Where in the text do we get any info on Lightbringer having been destroyed, shattered, broken, so that it would need to be forged again? No you're right theres no direct evidence that says it has to be reforged, I just feel it fits in better that the story takes us through the events to ignite a new sword. The series starts at the starks then opens up to the lannisters then onto the final revelations about the targaryens i.e. R+L=J. I do feel though that if George had wanted his story to be about a lost sword then we would have had some information by book 5 about the history of lightbringer since the first long night. Instead we have a fairytale about how it was made in the first place. Of course a lack of evidence doesnt count as evidence against something. To play devils advocate with my own theory though when Brienne first uses Oathkeeper she says (inner monologue) that she feels faster and more agile with the sword than any before. So there could be suggestion that the right sword just has to be picked up by the right person. If Cersei or Jaime are killed by Oathkeeper or Widows wail then i am going to bet big that ICE is LB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 @Nezza86, just to make myself clear, I am not saying it definitely doesn't need to be forged again. Only that we know so very little about Lightbringer, and Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa and all that. I mean, I'm not even convinced that Azor Ahai is this awesome hero, as Mel would have us believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezza86 Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 31 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: @Nezza86, just to make myself clear, I am not saying it definitely doesn't need to be forged again. Only that we know so very little about Lightbringer, and Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa and all that. I mean, I'm not even convinced that Azor Ahai is this awesome hero, as Mel would have us believe. Yeah I agree there's so little said about it. Which is why I never understood why there was such a big following for LB being Dawn. Or even the original LB being Dawn. That being said the stories of Azor Ahai or the last hero or whoever come from loads of different sources (i think) according to TWOIAF, like Yi Ti and Asshai, so it does seem like there should be a bit more info available. I guess George is being deliberately elusive on the matter. Very true, killing his wife to magically empower his sword doesnt sound like a heroic act at all. In fact it sounds more like Nissa Nissa was the hero really. I guess it represents that you really have to sacrifice something you care about. Interestingly I think this would be totally against Jon's nature, hence why I think Dany will have to trick him into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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