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Hello, all. I was just curious to see whether you all think the future installments of ASOIAF (Winds and Hopefully Dream, hopefully soon) will ever make clear what brought about the Doom of Valyria and maybe give us further information about other dragon lord freeholder families besides the Targaryens? I know it may sound like wishful thinking, but I just have a hunch Sam at Oldtown or maybe Maester Marwyn would reveal some more information about it that could possibly further the plot and fill in the gaps about what exactly it was. What say you all?

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My guess is that we will learn a little bit about the doom in winds and dream. We have Euros, who supposedly visited Valyria, although I'm not sure how his knowledge will be passed on through an existing POV... Maybe he'll share some knowledge with Damphair.. And of course Sam will learn some things in Oldtown, and Tyrion may gather some information in Mereen as well... We also habe Arya in the HoBW,  who already learned some things about the 'slave resistance' in Valyria, so we'll definitely learn more in the next two books. 

 

However I think most information will be reserved for Fire and Blood volume 2. Since the first volume will focus on the dance of the dragons, and the rest of the Targaryen history in TWOIAF is already relatively detailed, my guess is that volume 2 will mainly focus on pre-Conquest Targs. That means, from around the time they left Valyria until the conquest or shortly thereafter. 

The SotD story in the book of swords anthology is about the period after Aegon I's death though, so either the conquest +first period AC will be included (which sounds like a rather large volume, that will repeat much of the worldbook info on the conquest), or I'm wrong, and it will be mostly dedicated to the reign of the Targaryen kings before the dance.

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I have to correct myself, volume one of Fire and Blood includes more than just the dance. 

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Speaking of fake history... regulars here may recall our plan to assemble an entire book of my fake histories of the Targaryen kings, a volume we called (in jest) the GRRMarillion or (more seriously) FIRE AND BLOOD. We have so much material that it's been decided to publish the book in two volumes. The first of those will cover the history of Westeros from Aegon's Conquest up to and through the regency of the boy king Aegon III (the Dragonbane). That one is largely written, and will include (for the first time) a complete detailed history of the Targaryen civil war, the Dance of the Dragons. My stories in DANGEROUS WOMEN ("The Princess and the Queen") and ROGUES ("The Rogue Prince") were abridged versions of the same histories.

So that is basically most of the history of the Targaryen kings already, and will also include the short story about Aenys I and Maegor the Cruel. Which makes it all the more likely that volume II will focus on the pre-Conquest Targs and the reason they moved to Dragonstone, and eventually conquered Westeros. 

EDIT: Of course it's also very much possible that Volume 2 will focus on the Kings after the dance, including Aegon V. I mean, GRRM does say it's about the Targaryen KINGS, not just Targs... But even if that's the case, I have a hunch that Aegon may have found out something about the pre-Conquest Targs which made him set up the whole Summerhal fiasco. 

All in all I expect (at the least) lots of tidbits of info on Valyria in Fire and Blood, likely more altogether than we'll learn in Winds/Dream.

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Ah yes I see, thanks for your reply. I agree that Vol 2 seems likely to hold the information about the pre Conquest Targs too.  Wow, thats definitely intriguing what you said about Aegon possibly setting up Summerhall. I believe also that there is definitely more to it than what we've seen so far. I hope GRRM finishes Winds and Dream soon, I love speculating but I'd love even more to read and see what direction he takes the story. I'd also love if a main character currently alive (like Sam, Tyrion, Arya etc) gives us more info on the exact nature of the doom and what caused it. I definitely think Arya is most likely to given her experience w The FM as you said, and definitely suspect they had a role. If they carried out assassinations on pre Doom dragon lords, who paid them? Was Valyria also undermined by infighting among the houses?

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I wouldn't like to know more about it, it is one of those events where things are better left unexplained. I think people will mention some reports or their versions of events, but we will never be told if that is the truth. 

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On 8/6/2017 at 3:05 AM, BadWo1f said:

I wouldn't like to know more about it, it is one of those events where things are better left unexplained. I think people will mention some reports or their versions of events, but we will never be told if that is the truth. 

Part of me agrees that small hints here or there about it would be better than having whole truth revealed and the mystery removed. I think this is plausible, certainly, as GRRM in his writing has definitely hinted at mysterious relics/empires of the past only to not really out and out explain them later. I'm thinking maybe if one of the Game of Thrones spinoff shows were to be about the Doom, that would be sufficient for me. 

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2 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Bran and Bloodraven can share wisdom through visions. 

Melisandre can think of what she learned in Asshai.

Tyrion can reveal something by reading Daenerys's books. (As GRRM has said he will read them)

 

Ah good points, I had almost forgot about Bran/BR and the relative treasure trove of information they could be. Bran's flashbacks in the weir wood network could definitely possibly reveal important information regarding the Doom to the main characters. Maybe Mel could show something more about what happened in Asshai, that would be awesome. Maybe even give more info on Quaithe, IIRC she is from Asshai too. Do you have any specific examples/mentions from the text of what books Deanerys has access to?

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On 8/7/2017 at 11:13 AM, Endymion I Targaryen said:

These are the books that Jorah gave Daenerys the day of her wedding to Khal Drogo.They are histories and songs of the 7 kingdoms but they can include tales of dragons and the pre-conquest Targaryens.GRRM has said that Tyrion will read these in Winds of Winter.

Ah thanks, I had almost forgotten about those, it was so long ago in the story. Surely Tyrion, being the avid reader he is, could find something of value from the books. Mayhaps he could even find something about Old Valyria that may aid Daenerys in her journey. I wonder if there is something in Valyria or near there that she could find to help her in her plans for conquest?

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3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Whatever happened to Valyria will happen to Dragonstone and so the answer.

Hmm yes history does seem to repeat itself in the world of ASOIAF. But has there been mention of volcanic activity on the island? I can't seem to find anything on the wiki about it. Also, if I may ask, what exactly do you mean by "what happened to Valyria will happen to Dragonstone"? That it will fall, and in time be remembered merely as a vestige of the dragon lords of old? Or that it will be struck by a catastrophe of huge proportions, rendering it unusable?

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8 hours ago, The Ghost Beyond the Wall said:

Hmm yes history does seem to repeat itself in the world of ASOIAF. But has there been mention of volcanic activity on the island? I can't seem to find anything on the wiki about it. Also, if I may ask, what exactly do you mean by "what happened to Valyria will happen to Dragonstone"? That it will fall, and in time be remembered merely as a vestige of the dragon lords of old? Or that it will be struck by a catastrophe of huge proportions, rendering it unusable?

Don't know how it will occur, but how it does will be the answer to what happened at Valyria and probably Hardhome, The volcanic mountains will explode and that will be the mountains blowing in the wind like leaves. That provides the smoke. The sea will run dry, and the dried out seabed will provide the salt. And the result will make it appear the sun is setting in the east, as Valyria and Hardhome made the sun appear in the wrong spot.

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On 8/11/2017 at 8:40 PM, chrisdaw said:

Don't know how it will occur, but how it does will be the answer to what happened at Valyria and probably Hardhome, The volcanic mountains will explode and that will be the mountains blowing in the wind like leaves. That provides the smoke. The sea will run dry, and the dried out seabed will provide the salt. And the result will make it appear the sun is setting in the east, as Valyria and Hardhome made the sun appear in the wrong spot.

Fair enough. I too agree that the fall of Valyria in the past, though we can only speculate as of now, definitely had something to do with the Fourteen Fires flaring up and raining fire through the sky. Was Hardhome mentioned as having potentially destructive volcanic activity in the novels? I just think that Dragonstone's isolation geographically speaking and lack of outward volcanic activity make it unlikely that  the cycle of what happened at Valyria and Hardhome would repeat itself. It seems as though it is being set up to be of importance to Danaerys and her future ambitions, plus there is still the mystery of the "stone dragons" to uncover, among other things. 

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This is the Hardhome description. The parallel to the Valyria doom is obvious.

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He did. Hardhome had been halfway toward becoming a town, the only true town north of the Wall, until the night six hundred years ago when hell had swallowed it. Its people had been carried off into slavery or slaughtered for meat, depending on which version of the tale you believed, their homes and halls consumed in a conflagration that burned so hot that watchers on the Wall far to the south had thought the sun was rising in the north. Afterward ashes rained down on haunted forest and Shivering Sea alike for almost half a year. Traders reported finding only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones, waters choked with swollen corpses, blood-chilling shrieks echoing from the cave mouths that pocked the great cliff that loomed above the settlement.

Here's the reference to Valyria and the sun.

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Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever. Its twin, floating on the sea beyond the ship, shimmered red with every wave. "What hour is this?" he asked Moqorro. "That cannot be sunrise unless the east has moved. Why is the sky red?"

"The sky is always red above Valyria, Hugor Hill."

The only two references to the sun being in the wrong spot in the whole series, both relating to very similar events, the only of their kind.

Note in the Valyria one the moon being monstrous, swollen. Dany is symbolically the moon (moon of my life, moon and sun kiss and dragons pour forth from the Qarth dragon origin tales, and many more). She is monstrous.

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Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros? I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I.

The significance of the swollen moon is that it is foreshadowing a pregnant Dany. A very pregnant Dany, a Dany ready to pop, as she ought to be.

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The words of Mirri Maz Duur rang in her head. When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before.

Dragonstone's doom, sun will appear in the wrong spot, sea will run dry, and so Dany may (must) bear a living a child.

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Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke.

Mel is not so wrong, smoke of the doom, salt of the dried seabed, and there Dany will give birth.

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She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea

In the sea, not on, or around, or by it. In it.

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On 8/29/2017 at 0:41 AM, chrisdaw said:

Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke.

I can understand that Dragonstone would certainly be relevant to the Azor Ahai prophecy if the "stone" dragons are said to reside there. And yes, you are also correct that the bleeding star/red comet has already passed. Also, since dragonstone resides in the Narrow Sea, the hero could also be technically considered as born in the sea. The thing I am unsure about is your statement of Danaerys giving birth. At the end of Dance it seems she maybe able to birth a child again after having recovered sufficiently from her ordeal to hatch the dragons and MMD's sorcery, however, what significance could the child have as anything other than an heir to the dynasty if she does indeed, reclaim the Targaryen throne? 

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14 minutes ago, The Ghost Beyond the Wall said:

I can understand that Dragonstone would certainly be relevant to the Azor Ahai prophecy if the "stone" dragons are said to reside there. And yes, you are also correct that the bleeding star/red comet has already passed. Also, since dragonstone resides in the Narrow Sea, the hero could also be technically considered as born in the sea. The thing I am unsure about is your statement of Danaerys giving birth. At the end of Dance it seems she maybe able to birth a child again after having recovered sufficiently from her ordeal to hatch the dragons and MMD's sorcery, however, what significance could the child have as anything other than an heir to the dynasty if she does indeed, reclaim the Targaryen throne? 

The cost of dragons are dead children. Rhaego, Hazzea, why Euron needs a child of dragon blood to get his dragons, what he is doing with Falia (its not her blood he needs for that, just his own blood and a womb for it) for krakens is what he intends with Dany (he needs her blood) for dragons. TPTWP is sacrifice. Why Rhaegar was a depressive with an air of doom about him. At first he thought he was TPTWP. He sang sad songs about the death of kings that those who heard thought were about him and those he loved. Then he thought it was his children, thus his song for Aegon is bitter sweet, the birth of his heir is not a happy moment as it should be, because he thinks the child will need be sacrificed.

Dany's child to Jon she will have specifically conceived for the purpose of sacrificing to wake Drogon from stone. She is doing what Rhaegar failed, she is becoming the last dragon instead of him. Returning Drogo to how he was.

There will be at least one other comet, during conception, if not another during the birth.

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6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The cost of dragons are dead children. Rhaego, Hazzea, why Euron needs a child of dragon blood to get his dragons, what he is doing with Falia (its not her blood he needs for that, just his own blood and a womb for it) for krakens is what he intends with Dany (he needs her blood) for dragons. TPTWP is sacrifice. Why Rhaegar was a depressive with an air of doom about him. At first he thought he was TPTWP. He sang sad songs about the death of kings that those who heard thought were about him and those he loved. Then he thought it was his children, thus his song for Aegon is bitter sweet, the birth of his heir is not a happy moment as it should be, because he thinks the child will need be sacrificed.

Dany's child to Jon she will have specifically conceived for the purpose of sacrificing to wake Drogon from stone. She is doing what Rhaegar failed, she is becoming the last dragon instead of him. Returning Drogo to how he was.

There will be at least one other comet, during conception, if not another during the birth.

Alright, I definitely know that there is a blood price associated with dragons (MMD, Drogo's deaths), but when you reference Euron, what do you mean by krakens? Isn't there said to be a horn or some artifact to call krakens? Also, if he needed Daenarys' blood for dragons, I would think he would need that to properly control the dragons, not to bind one through Dragonbinder (anyone would suffice, including Victorian). I always thought Rhaegar was melancholy due to his not loving Elia and that the Tragedy at Summerhall marked him. Please explain what text in the book or information besides the show that suggests Daenerys and Jon's child (if they have one), would be anything other than the heir to inherit the dynasty? So you are saying she intends to sacrifice her child to resurrect her deceased husband? What purpose would that serve?

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If you haven't read the Aeron sample chapter that is what I'm referencing with Euron.

The dragons are going to die, or in Drogon's case be turned to stone, and to turn him back Dany is going to need another Rhaego. If she doesn't then the Others win as there's no fire breathing dragon to save the world. Thus the promised prince, saviour to be born to wake dragons from stone, born amidst salt and smoke.

With relation to the topic, trying to wake the dragon from stone may very well be the reason Dragonstone goes doom. It may be one of the fires Dany must light. The horn of Joramun supposedly able to wake giants from the earth and bring down the wall, has been theorised to cause seismic activity. A decent explanation. If Dany blows that horn on Dragonstone, or someone blows it for her (like uhhh Jorah Mormont), that may be the cause of a volcanic eruption and the new doom.

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5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

If you haven't read the Aeron sample chapter that is what I'm referencing with Euron.

The dragons are going to die, or in Drogon's case be turned to stone, and to turn him back Dany is going to need another Rhaego. If she doesn't then the Others win as there's no fire breathing dragon to save the world. Thus the promised prince, saviour to be born to wake dragons from stone, born amidst salt and smoke.

With relation to the topic, trying to wake the dragon from stone may very well be the reason Dragonstone goes doom. It may be one of the fires Dany must light. The horn of Joramun supposedly able to wake giants from the earth and bring down the wall, has been theorised to cause seismic activity. A decent explanation. If Dany blows that horn on Dragonstone, or someone blows it for her (like uhhh Jorah Mormont), that may be the cause of a volcanic eruption and the new doom.

I read it awhile ago, sorry thats probably why I didn't remember. Please explain how its already  foregone conclusion that the dragons will die before the end of the series. Also, maybe combatting the Others could be done by a person who represents a dragon (Danaerys, Jon maybe etc) rather than say Drogon. Please also elaborate on how Drogon will be turned to stone. Who would do this, and also for what purpose? Lastly, how would Danaerys even acquire the Horn of Joramun? Isn't that a northern artifact, and what good would it be for Jorah to blow it if it would bring catastrophe? I would think the only artifact she'd be able to acquire realistically would be Dragonbinder.

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