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Should I be cheating?


Iskaral Pust

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2 minutes ago, brook said:

I'm not entirely sure why a relationship change = "going backwards"

Maybe some do see it that way but most people I've known who have actually done so view it as a natural progression that usually involves a number of small changes and discussions rather than one partner sitting the other down to propose opening the relationship out of the blue.

Possibly because our culture tells us thats how things work. Its very difficult to rail against that when the whole world tells you how relationships should be.

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Something being difficult (assuming it is as difficult as you say for everyone, which certainly does not match my experiences) is not at all the same thing as 'going backwards'

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1. If you are in a monogamous relationship, you should stay monogomous.

1a. I understand that this is hard for some people and I understand that mistakes happen. I do not consider those facts to relieve one of responsibility for violating one's marriage vows.

2. If you are explicitly in an open relation or some kind kind of polyamorous relationship, then I don't think there is an ethical problem there, pursuant to the "rules" of that relationship.

2a. I have known few if any people in such a relationship that I thought had a healthy and solid relationship.

I vaguely recall reading a story about some guy who pressured his girlfriend into an open relationship; she reluctantly agreed. Fast forward a few months and he was getting super mad that he had utterly failed to get laid by anyone else while she was having the time of her life. You made your bed, dude.

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3 hours ago, Masonity said:

I can actually help with the how you drop the bomb... You do it slowly. 

 

When my wife realised I was into stuff she wasn't, she off handedly suggested if I was super desperate I could always try those kinks with other people. A little later I let her know I'd be cool with her being with other women, then a little later with other guys if she wanted to too. Then when I came out as bi she asked if I wanted to just outright open the relationship. Every step of the way it was one of us offering the other freedoms, not asking for them ourselves. Neither of us did anything until that final opening either. 

Just wanted to say thank you for sharing your experience. :) 

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20 hours ago, baxus said:

Why would you consider someone who's not cheating while everyone else is a patsy?

That's an interesting question regardless of the transgression involved.  Are moral codes objective or relative?  Can something really be cheating, whether on a spouse, exams, taxes, speed limit, whatever, if it has become a widespread social norm to do so?  Who could stand in judgment of you then?  Why should any individual be held to a different standard than everyone else.  A lot of our moral code stems from our instinct for equal standards for all. 

Of course, I suspect a lot of cheaters of whatever ilk would claim that rationalization long before it was truly widespread and, in doing so, become a self-fulfilling prophecy. 

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17 hours ago, kairparavel said:

RE : open marriage/relationships the NYT ran this story in May. It was interesting. 

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/magazine/is-an-open-marriage-a-happier-marriage.html

I remember reading that.  It was an interesting insight to a somewhat below-the-radar lifestyle, and notable that the most mainstream newspaper is doing more to discuss people outside the mainstream.  But I hope these weren't really representative stories because my impression at the time from the individual stories was that one spouse generally pressured the other for the change and it created some fear of divorce/abandonment and/or simmering resentment.  It didn't seem to align with the quoted stats that open marriages were happier.  Of course there is the caveat that the tone lies in how the journalist tells the story. 

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1 hour ago, Iskaral Pust said:

That's an interesting question regardless of the transgression involved.  Are moral codes objective or relative?  Can something really be cheating, whether on a spouse, exams, taxes, speed limit, whatever, if it has become a widespread social norm to do so?  Who could stand in judgment of you then?  Why should any individual be held to a different standard than everyone else.  A lot of our moral code stems from our instinct for equal standards for all.

I think it goes to the issue of having a specific individual vis a vis whom one is either keeping or not keeping a contract. Adultery isn't actually illegal, but in many regards is held to a stricter moral code than things that are (like speeding or tax dodging or whatever.) You might have romantic/sexual environments that default to non-monogamy unless explicitely stated otherwise, say (maybe, what do I know?) college hook-up culture, but most of them are the opposite. Your specific partner, expecting a monogamous relationship, is the injured party and obligation to them is drawn from their individual, specific expectations - regardless of the social norms around - as opposed to the more nebulous obligation you have to 'society' or 'the law' to follow speed limits precisely, for example. That is, if you're involved with someone who thinks a one-night stand at an out of town trip (or whatever) consitutes a moral break, it consititutes a moral break, regardless of whether 'everyone' does it. Going over the speed limit, given that everyone goes over the speed limit, doesn't.

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12 hours ago, Datepalm said:

I think it goes to the issue of having a specific individual vis a vis whom one is either keeping or not keeping a contract. Adultery isn't actually illegal, but in many regards is held to a stricter moral code than things that are (like speeding or tax dodging or whatever.) You might have romantic/sexual environments that default to non-monogamy unless explicitely stated otherwise, say (maybe, what do I know?) college hook-up culture, but most of them are the opposite. Your specific partner, expecting a monogamous relationship, is the injured party and obligation to them is drawn from their individual, specific expectations - regardless of the social norms around - as opposed to the more nebulous obligation you have to 'society' or 'the law' to follow speed limits precisely, for example. That is, if you're involved with someone who thinks a one-night stand at an out of town trip (or whatever) consitutes a moral break, it consititutes a moral break, regardless of whether 'everyone' does it. Going over the speed limit, given that everyone goes over the speed limit, doesn't.

Good argument; I agree.  It's similar to my earlier contrast with virtuous behavior in healthy leaving.  Monogamy is different because it represents a specific promise to a specific person, which is a different argument than Baxus made.  You could easily feel like a patsy if you follow a puritanical moral code that few else observe -- usually requiring some promised reward in an afterlife to offset being a patsy on earth -- but that doesn't mean you should necessarily extend that thinking to a monogamous commitment.  It's not a contract with yourself (or your god), it's not a social contract with millions of strangers, it's a contract with one other person.  Relativism shouldn't matter, only the perspective of the person to whom you made the promise.

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On 24-7-2017 at 10:50 AM, Inigima said:

1. If you are in a monogamous relationship, you should stay monogomous.

1a. I understand that this is hard for some people and I understand that mistakes happen. I do not consider those facts to relieve one of responsibility for violating one's marriage vows.

2. If you are explicitly in an open relation or some kind kind of polyamorous relationship, then I don't think there is an ethical problem there, pursuant to the "rules" of that relationship.

2a. I have known few if any people in such a relationship that I thought had a healthy and solid relationship.

I vaguely recall reading a story about some guy who pressured his girlfriend into an open relationship; she reluctantly agreed. Fast forward a few months and he was getting super mad that he had utterly failed to get laid by anyone else while she was having the time of her life. You made your bed, dude.

If you ever find this story again, PM me, it sounds fucking hilarious.

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1 hour ago, Lily Valley said:

http://jezebel.com/dudes-demand-for-an-open-relationship-backfires-spectac-1578409074

This story was circled so widely it became a minor character's subplot on Riverdale.

Thanks for the link.

I wanna laugh, but it's just way too pathetic. He had zero respect for his girfriend and then all the flaws in his character came out (jealousy, resentment, hints of being a sociopath). I don't understand what his girlfriend saw in him.

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On 7/23/2017 at 5:53 PM, Iskaral Pust said:

Who in hell ever raises the possibility of consensual nonmonogamy?  I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.  I assume they consult a divorce lawyer beforehand  

People who actually can have honest discussions with their SO. 

On 7/23/2017 at 5:53 PM, Iskaral Pust said:

Part of this question falls under the thanklessness of a virtuous life.  Fidelity to a spouse is one of the few aspects of virtuous living that has an objective moral basis: a promise to another.  All the other stuff like sobriety, healthy eating, exercise, financial responsibility, etc are all uneasy promises to ourselves, with no medals awarded on death beds.  As I get older I think more about the opportunity cost of various forms of self-denial.  I still plan to play catch-up with a ton of illegal drugs when dementia starts.

If you believe that this is something that is painful to you, you should discuss it with your partner. And then either break up or start fucking other people with their consent. 

On 7/23/2017 at 5:53 PM, Iskaral Pust said:

(I was really surprised that some of my friends thought that marital infidelity is an inevitable stage of life/marriage.  I doubt I'll ever completely forget they said that.)

Honestly, it sounds like that's the case for you too, if you're thinking of it constantly as regretful. 

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On 7/24/2017 at 1:12 AM, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think there are two conflicting factors:

1) Humans find it very hard to be monogamous over large periods of time, lots of evidence pointing to the fact that we aren't designed that way.

We aren't designed in any way.

On 7/24/2017 at 1:12 AM, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Certainly relationships are far more complicated than being just about sex or even love. Over history ,men for example have had many other outlets for their sexual desires, prostitutes and mistresses. Its hard to find a time when anyone was truly monogamous, and whether the concept isn't a human construct designed to keep society together.

There are plenty of examples of individuals in populations who are non-monogamous, but that doesn't mean that monogamy is abnormal. It means that humans have lots of bonding variations, and there's very little specific that is dictated by biology alone.

Anyone else who says otherwise is using evopsych bullshit to sell their own specific brand of morality as the way to go.

On 7/24/2017 at 1:12 AM, Channel4s-JonSnow said:


2) You don't get to go backwards in relationships. In general its usually something men want and women resist, but I find both sexes cannot handle the moving backwards. It takes a very special type of couple to be able to handle sex with others, and even then I think most are just trying to cover up their own emotional trauma about the situation. 

Nonmonogamy is not moving backwards.

 

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Lol, FetLife is interesting.  I've had better luck on there than okcupid.  Both can eat up a lot of time and require a lot of weeding.  My pals on OKC say that every third person they go on a date with is in a primary relationship and looking for New Relationship Energy.   This seems like the kind of thing that ought to be on your profile.  I'd be annoyed by the waste of time if I was looking for a boyfriend.  That group is 10 years younger than I am, so I didn't get as many of those.

Frankly, I find the story really funny even as some sort of social commentary fiction.  Most of the people that I know who are in long term open relationships are extremely discreet and way more mature than that guy, but they are not in their 20's and trying to complicate their first rodeo.

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14 minutes ago, commiedore said:

small brain: staying true to your partner

big brain: its not a crime if no one finds out

genious brain: everyone just fucking everyone else, all the time 

galaxy brain: stay alone and volcel forever, keep your precious fluids and energies for yourself

Universe brain:  performing oral sex on yourself while in galaxy brain mode

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1 minute ago, larrytheimp said:

Universe brain:  performing oral sex on yourself while in galaxy brain mode

question for the board: in a committed and monogamous relationship, is achieving self-succ considered cheating? asking for a friend....

unrelated, anyone recommend any good yoga studios? i've been kicked out of mine for, uh, creative differences

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On 7/23/2017 at 5:53 PM, Iskaral Pust said:

Part of this question falls under the thanklessness of a virtuous life.  Fidelity to a spouse is one of the few aspects of virtuous living that has an objective moral basis: a promise to another.  All the other stuff like sobriety, healthy eating, exercise, financial responsibility, etc are all uneasy promises to ourselves, with no medals awarded on death beds.  As I get older I think more about the opportunity cost of various forms of self-denial.  I still plan to play catch-up with a ton of illegal drugs when dementia starts.

 I don't think it's fair to call it thankless. A clear conscience is kind of its' own reward. And the depth of trust and love that can be achieved within the boundaries of a monogamous relationship is pretty damn singular methinks.

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