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Marvel Cinematic General Discussion 7

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Ant-Man and the Wasp synopsis:

Quote

From the Marvel Cinematic Universe comes a new chapter featuring heroes with the astonishing ability to shrink: “Ant-Man and The Wasp.” In the aftermath of “Captain America: Civil War,” Scott Lang (Paul Rudd) grapples with the consequences of his choices as both a Super Hero and a father. As he struggles to rebalance his home life with his responsibilities as Ant-Man, he’s confronted by Hope van Dyne (Evangeline Lilly) and Dr. Hank Pym (Michael Douglas) with an urgent new mission. Scott must once again put on the suit and learn to fight alongside The Wasp as the team works together to uncover secrets from their past.

Makes it sound like it takes place before Infinity War, which would make a lot of sense. But I hope they have a decent excuse for the Wasp not being around to help against Thanos. 

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Isn't Scott a fugitive? How much 'home life' can he have? And when this says 'their past,' I'm assuming that mostly means Hope and Hanks. What secrets would Lang have in his past?

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3 hours ago, red snow said:

Maybe they can get Mr Wednesday in if Hopkins Odin dies?

Tessa Thompson seems to be popping up in a few things lately which is great as far as I'm concerned. I hope they make good use of her as Valkyrie and if they ever did go the route of a new "thor" she could work. I think have someone else have the title of Thor could be a good transition phase for when Hemsworth leaves the role (in much the same way as they could have winter soldier/falcon be Captain americs). Have someone else be Thor for a film or just have them as an Avenger and then bring Thor back as Thor. It bugs me that the comics set it up so whoever wielded Mjolnir got the title (merely for brand recognition). From my shaky knowledge of Norse Mythology (currenty being increased via Gaiman) Thor is Thor and his hammer came along after he was Thor. So they could call the person with Mjolnir "Mjolnir-man/woman" or "Valyrie/Jane/MODOK : God of Thunder" if they wanted the hammer to be key. Again I realise it's very clever branding to do it the way it has been done but it just feels a bit strained and illogical to me.

They could take the Almighty Johnsons route. The "god essense" of each Norse god is an independent entity from the physical person who goes by the name. So the name belongs to whomever the god essence happens to inhabit. When the person in which the god essence resides dies the god essence transfers to someone else. In the heirarchy of god essences the Odin force is top dog. So if that essence transfers to an existing person (Thor for instance) then the Odin force displaces the Thor force, meaning the person who was Thor now takes the name and power of Odin, and thus the Thor force transfers to someone else and that person becomes Thor. 

The god essence in this construction would be eternal and the vessel mortal, though blessed with considerable longevity and sturdiness by virtue of the god essence inhabiting them. Therefore if Odin, or Thor or Loki or Hela are killed, only the body is dead, their essence (and their role / duty) is transferred to another person. I think without actually rebooting the MCU, this is kinda how the Norse god aspect of the MCU should go.

I think an alternative to Jane Foster being reintroduced and becoming Thor, a good candidate for a female Thor who is already in the MCU would be Sharon Carter. So far her character has acted in quite a worthy way. 

On 26/07/2017 at 8:34 PM, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Hope not. I'd rather have a Beta Ray Bill!

BRB has his own hammer. Mjolnir still needs someone to wield it. Also introducing BRB is kinda problematic, since how does one tell his story and end up having him do Thor cosplay only wielding Stormbreaker instead of Mjolnir? That would be a Thor 4 movie, but is that really the Thor 4 movie they should be making? It's an interesting story, but BRB probably doesn't have a good fit in the MCU in its current construction and focus, albeit BRB's introduction is directly linked to Surtur.

 

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18 minutes ago, The BlackBear said:

Isn't Scott a fugitive? How much 'home life' can he have? And when this says 'their past,' I'm assuming that mostly means Hope and Hanks. What secrets would Lang have in his past?

Does the world know Scott is Ant-man? The whole time he's fighting alongside Cap he's in his suit. So, Ant-man might be a fugitive, but Scott has probably avoided being ID'd as Ant-man for now.

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14 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Does the world know Scott is Ant-man? The whole time he's fighting alongside Cap he's in his suit. So, Ant-man might be a fugitive, but Scott has probably avoided being ID'd as Ant-man for now.

The government does. He was arrested and locked up, probably fingerprinted and since he's been in the system his name will have probably come up across databases as wanted by the US government. I doubt Ross and them are going to publicize his identity as Ant-Man but he's a fugitive along with the rest of Team Cap. 

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3 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The government does. He was arrested and locked up, probably fingerprinted and since he's been in the system his name will have probably come up across databases as wanted by the US government. I doubt Ross and them are going to publicize his identity as Ant-Man but he's a fugitive along with the rest of Team Cap. 

Yeah, but that's the thing with Scott cf Captain America. Scott can't officially be a wanted fugitive for general law enforcement. I would say that the "deep state" is really just keeping an eye on him rather than wanting to hunt him down and put him back under lock and key. Steve Rogers, OTOH, is / was an heroic figure and the "deep state" would definitely want to grab him as soon as he places a toe on any soil where they have influence.

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10 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

They could take the Almighty Johnsons route. The "god essense" of each Norse god is an independent entity from the physical person who goes by the name. So the name belongs to whomever the god essence happens to inhabit. When the person in which the god essence resides dies the god essence transfers to someone else. In the heirarchy of god essences the Odin force is top dog. So if that essence transfers to an existing person (Thor for instance) then the Odin force displaces the Thor force, meaning the person who was Thor now takes the name and power of Odin, and thus the Thor force transfers to someone else and that person becomes Thor. 

The god essence in this construction would be eternal and the vessel mortal, though blessed with considerable longevity and sturdiness by virtue of the god essence inhabiting them. Therefore if Odin, or Thor or Loki or Hela are killed, only the body is dead, their essence (and their role / duty) is transferred to another person. I think without actually rebooting the MCU, this is kinda how the Norse god aspect of the MCU should go.

 

 

This seems a better option and it's sort of like the early Thor comics where Donald Blake acted as his host. It also wouldn't prohibit female or alien characters from receiving his essence/spirit. It also provides a good excuse for swapping out the actor and keeping the character as the two mix.

As for Mjolnir I always get the impression it's more likely to have been designed for asgardian use. Norse "wothiness" is also quite different from modern western society's notion of "worthiness" too.

Beta Ray Bill should be kept largely as an easter egg for fans and not really expanded into a main character. He is too odd - even by GOTG standards. I'm pretty sure he featured in the animated "planet hulk" film (and Ragnarok is "planet hulk" with a skewed view from everything I've heard about the project) as a combatant in the arena with Hulk. It looks as though Thor is taking Bill's place here.

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1 hour ago, red snow said:

This seems a better option and it's sort of like the early Thor comics where Donald Blake acted as his host. It also wouldn't prohibit female or alien characters from receiving his essence/spirit. It also provides a good excuse for swapping out the actor and keeping the character as the two mix.

As for Mjolnir I always get the impression it's more likely to have been designed for asgardian use. Norse "wothiness" is also quite different from modern western society's notion of "worthiness" too.

Beta Ray Bill should be kept largely as an easter egg for fans and not really expanded into a main character. He is too odd - even by GOTG standards. I'm pretty sure he featured in the animated "planet hulk" film (and Ragnarok is "planet hulk" with a skewed view from everything I've heard about the project) as a combatant in the arena with Hulk. It looks as though Thor is taking Bill's place here.

Yes he did, I watched it about a month ago. Truth be told it was the first time I ever encountered him.

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Posted (edited)

On 8/8/2017 at 2:06 PM, red snow said:

Maybe they can get Mr Wednesday in if Hopkins Odin dies?...

Er.Mah.Gerd.

That's straight up outta some fan-fic...and I love it!

Edited by PetyrPunkinhead

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20 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Yes he did, I watched it about a month ago. Truth be told it was the first time I ever encountered him.

He's a very distinctive character! I get the impression Walt Simonson was maybe experimenting recreationally when he decided to make a space horse alien. I actually just found this quote from him on the BRB wiki page

" One of the cool things about Thor was the enchantment around Mjolnir and the original inscription on it. So I thought, well that means someone else can pick up this hammer and get this power, if they're worthy! So since then, some other big characters, people's favorites, have picked up the hammer, Captain America, Superman, whoever. But at this point, no one had ever picked up the hammer. I liked the idea of Cap walking to the bathroom and seeing it, and grabbing and just tugging, not being able to. So this had to be someone new. This is the most powerful weapon of the Norse gods. This hammer is a killing weapon. It's used to kill Frost Giants and others. So, Superman couldn't pick it up, cause he's never going to kill anyone, and the hammer knows that. Captain America, he's too patriotic. He's too much a symbol of America to be chosen by this Norse artifact. So he couldn't get it. So I created Bill because he's noble, and he's designed to kill. He's got a great purpose as a warrior, and also the noble ability. That makes him "worthy" whatever that may be. "

That nails how I feel about "worthy" regarding Mjolnir and it's a shame the current comics don't really follow that. It also fits with that great scene (possibly the best) in Age of Ultron where the various avengers try and lift the hammer and it wobbles with Captain America. Close but no cigar. The current comics are just damn lazy with their interpretation pretty much being "whoever Odin (the editor) likes"

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4 hours ago, red snow said:

He's a very distinctive character! I get the impression Walt Simonson was maybe experimenting recreationally when he decided to make a space horse alien. I actually just found this quote from him on the BRB wiki page

" One of the cool things about Thor was the enchantment around Mjolnir and the original inscription on it. So I thought, well that means someone else can pick up this hammer and get this power, if they're worthy! So since then, some other big characters, people's favorites, have picked up the hammer, Captain America, Superman, whoever. But at this point, no one had ever picked up the hammer. I liked the idea of Cap walking to the bathroom and seeing it, and grabbing and just tugging, not being able to. So this had to be someone new. This is the most powerful weapon of the Norse gods. This hammer is a killing weapon. It's used to kill Frost Giants and others. So, Superman couldn't pick it up, cause he's never going to kill anyone, and the hammer knows that. Captain America, he's too patriotic. He's too much a symbol of America to be chosen by this Norse artifact. So he couldn't get it. So I created Bill because he's noble, and he's designed to kill. He's got a great purpose as a warrior, and also the noble ability. That makes him "worthy" whatever that may be. "

That nails how I feel about "worthy" regarding Mjolnir and it's a shame the current comics don't really follow that. It also fits with that great scene (possibly the best) in Age of Ultron where the various avengers try and lift the hammer and it wobbles with Captain America. Close but no cigar. The current comics are just damn lazy with their interpretation pretty much being "whoever Odin (the editor) likes"

Someone should give the Joker the good news that he's not really dead.

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27 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Someone should give the Joker the good news that he's not really dead.

They can tell Zod while they're at it :)

 

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15 hours ago, red snow said:

He's a very distinctive character! I get the impression Walt Simonson was maybe experimenting recreationally when he decided to make a space horse alien. I actually just found this quote from him on the BRB wiki page

" One of the cool things about Thor was the enchantment around Mjolnir and the original inscription on it. So I thought, well that means someone else can pick up this hammer and get this power, if they're worthy! So since then, some other big characters, people's favorites, have picked up the hammer, Captain America, Superman, whoever. But at this point, no one had ever picked up the hammer. I liked the idea of Cap walking to the bathroom and seeing it, and grabbing and just tugging, not being able to. So this had to be someone new. This is the most powerful weapon of the Norse gods. This hammer is a killing weapon. It's used to kill Frost Giants and others. So, Superman couldn't pick it up, cause he's never going to kill anyone, and the hammer knows that. Captain America, he's too patriotic. He's too much a symbol of America to be chosen by this Norse artifact. So he couldn't get it. So I created Bill because he's noble, and he's designed to kill. He's got a great purpose as a warrior, and also the noble ability. That makes him "worthy" whatever that may be. "

That nails how I feel about "worthy" regarding Mjolnir and it's a shame the current comics don't really follow that. It also fits with that great scene (possibly the best) in Age of Ultron where the various avengers try and lift the hammer and it wobbles with Captain America. Close but no cigar. The current comics are just damn lazy with their interpretation pretty much being "whoever Odin (the editor) likes"

Hopefully not breaking rules by re-quoting. But does that mean Black Widow might be among the more worthy candidates among the Avengers? And possibly quite interesting that in AoU she says "It's not a question I need answered". Meaning the writers have deliberately or inadvertently left the door open for Romanov to become the fem-Thor in the MCU. People have been wanting Scarlett to get a solo MCU movie, but Black Widow just doesn't seem the character that they want to tell a solo story about (because it would probably be best told with a R-rating, which they perhaps don't want to do with the core Avengers roster). So making her into Thor givens them an option. They could also bring in the Donald Blake effect, with Romanov de-powering after being disconnected from Mjolnir for a time. Though I do prefer the transfer of the God essence thing if HemsThor does either die or take on the mantle of Odin. But perhaps what they could do is have her pick up the Hammer while Thor is still alive.

Worthiness is an interesting question now that Hela is allegedly shown to be able to hold Mjolnir before she destroys it. If the worthiness criteria is absolute for organic beings to wield the hammer, then that applies to Hela. Which suggests she's deemed worthy by the mystical power of the hammer.

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I wondered the same thing about Black Widow. Out of the Avengers team, I'd say her and Hawkeye are the most "worthy" in terms of Norse notions.

If Thor gets his hammer back, I suspect it will be via some other character handing it over to him. Especially if it's in Avengers.

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I doubt marvel will be doing any other versions of Thor. Anything they do will share immediate comparisons to Hemsworth and they might not be favourable.

i don't think there is enough appetite for more Thor stories anyway. It's clear that Ragnorak is being placed as not really a Thor movie but a gateway towards the galactic elements in the MCU. Including Hulk and the planet Hulk storyline to me signals that they don't have a great deal of confidence in Thor as a main character or the interest in his universe. 

 

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12 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

Hopefully not breaking rules by re-quoting. But does that mean Black Widow might be among the more worthy candidates among the Avengers? And possibly quite interesting that in AoU she says "It's not a question I need answered". Meaning the writers have deliberately or inadvertently left the door open for Romanov to become the fem-Thor in the MCU. People have been wanting Scarlett to get a solo MCU movie, but Black Widow just doesn't seem the character that they want to tell a solo story about (because it would probably be best told with a R-rating, which they perhaps don't want to do with the core Avengers roster). So making her into Thor givens them an option. They could also bring in the Donald Blake effect, with Romanov de-powering after being disconnected from Mjolnir for a time. Though I do prefer the transfer of the God essence thing if HemsThor does either die or take on the mantle of Odin. But perhaps what they could do is have her pick up the Hammer while Thor is still alive.

Worthiness is an interesting question now that Hela is allegedly shown to be able to hold Mjolnir before she destroys it. If the worthiness criteria is absolute for organic beings to wield the hammer, then that applies to Hela. Which suggests she's deemed worthy by the mystical power of the hammer.

Or her magic was stronger than the hammer's.

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8 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

i don't think there is enough appetite for more Thor stories anyway. It's clear that Ragnorak is being placed as not really a Thor movie but a gateway towards the galactic elements in the MCU. Including Hulk and the planet Hulk storyline to me signals that they don't have a great deal of confidence in Thor as a main character or the interest in his universe. 

 

To be fair, Capt 3 was also more of an Avengers movie rather than a Capt film. It doesn't so much show a lack of confidence in a single character but leveraging the "solo" movies to tell a larger tale.

I love how Marvel is free to open the rosters like that.

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So Evangeline Lilly looks in pretty great shape for the Wasp:

 

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Brie Larsen better be buffing up like that for Capt Marvel. I don't want to see model stick arms, I want to see gymnast arms

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22 hours ago, The BlackBear said:

So Evangeline Lilly looks in pretty great shape for the Wasp:

 

Wow, that's pretty impressive. Paul Rudd's gonna have to step up his game!

 I gotta say, as a fan I appreciate her enthusiasm for the role. I don't think it's important to get that ripped for a lot of characters, Wasp included, but the fact that she was that committed to the role definitely is. 

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