Most one-sided marriages?

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

I see this as the other way around - it is Amerei who is the Lady Darry and it's Lancel - a landless son of a household knight - who married up. 

Gregor Clegane killed the last male(s) of House Darry, the title going to sister of the last Lord (or maybe aunt? Father'\s sister, in that case) Mariya Frey nee Darry, wife to Merret Frey. Amerei is her eldest living child. With no living son - Little Walder dead - eldest daughter gets it.

 

Good points about the Lordship of Darry.

I don't recall if Lancel was made Lord Darry in his own right, or if he owns the lordship through his wife.

That said, the nephew of Tywin Lannister, son of the Regent, and first cousin of the Queen is still of far higher status than simply the landless son of a household knight.

[TMIFairy]

9 hours ago, Ser Snowflake said:

Alys Karstark and Sigorn the Thenn

Lollys Stokeworth and Ser Bronn of the Blackwater

Tyrion and Tysha

Doran and his lady from Norvos (Doran needed allies in the 7K

Lynesse Hightower and Jorah the Andal

Yup - sweet Lollys is somewhere up there in the "most lopsided marriage" lists.

With her elder sister barren - Lollys was an excellent match!

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

I see this as the other way around - it is Amerei who is the Lady Darry and it's Lancel - a landless son of a household knight - who married up. 

Gregor Clegane killed the last male(s) of House Darry, the title going to sister of the last Lord (or maybe aunt? Father'\s sister, in that case) Mariya Frey nee Darry, wife to Merret Frey. Amerei is her eldest living child. With no living son - Little Walder dead - eldest daughter gets it.

 

Good points about the Lordship of Darry.

I don't recall if Lancel was made Lord Darry in his own right, or if he owns the lordship through his wife.

That said, the nephew of Tywin Lannister, son of the Regent, and first cousin of the Queen is still of far higher status than simply the landless son of a household knight.

[TMIFairy]

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Good points about the Lordship of Darry.

I don't recall if Lancel was made Lord Darry in his own right, or if he owns the lordship through his wife.

That said, the nephew of Tywin Lannister, son of the Regent, and first cousin of the Queen is still of far higher status than simply the landless son of a household knight.

OK - to misquote Orwell:

- "Some landless sons of household knights are more equal than others"

[Stormking902]

On 25/07/2017 at 3:40 PM, devilish said:

I think Aerys married Rhaegar to the Martells to avoid having his son becoming stronger then he is. Dorne is a bit like the North. Their army is beatable but really don't want to piss them off enough for them to rebel.

My list of 1 sided marriages

a- Tywin and Joanna
b- Aerys and Rhaella
c- Stannis and Selyse
d- Doran and Mellario
e- Rickard and Marna

is a perfect Targ marriage, very creepy but hey thats what the Targs are into.

C) Stannis and Selyse wasnt a horrible marriage per say since the Florents have one of the greatest claims on Highgarden and this marriage was used to scare house Tyrell into submission.

D) Mellario was a high noble nothing wrong with this match either. 

 

[LindsayLohan]

Alayne Stone and Harrold Hardyng (betrothed).

Joy HIll and Raynald Westerling (betrothed), as Raynald is/was heir to the Crag.

Asha Greyjoy and Erik Ironmaker.

Wylla Manderly and Little Walder Frey.

[Bernie Mac]

On 27/07/2017 at 9:15 AM, devilish said:

I find that to be a very weak alternative explanation TBH.

Not really. It makes sense, cousins were frequently marrying each other in medieval times to secure power. Plus this is his universe, if he thinks this is a perfectly reasonable reason in the society he has created then it is. 

On 27/07/2017 at 9:15 AM, devilish said:

 

The Tyrells had a much bigger concern about that,

eh? I'm not sure that you actually read what GRRM wrote. The worry was that with too any heirs and Tytos being a weak leader that another Lannister would challenge him or his heirs. 

 

How did the Tyrells have a similar problem to Tytos and the very fertile  and angry Jason Lannister?

On 27/07/2017 at 9:15 AM, devilish said:

I am more inclined to think that he married out of love and lust. Tywin might chastise Tyrion but he does share his 'lust' in terms of women (Shae)

The author points out that the marriage could well have been arranged by Tytos or even Gerold. The only noble that is mentioned to have married out of love is Doran. 

All it is said is that Tywin loved Joanna, which is hardly odd as Ned and Cat loved each other as do many other nobles in arranged marriages and even arranged marriages in real life.

This is a big part of the Westerosi noble culture, there is not going to be the same hangups on the idea of it that we Westerners have on it. I have a few Afghanistan and Indian friends who are in loving arranged marriages. They simply accept it as part of their culture, I am sure that many of the Westerosi nobles would view it the same way they do, especially men like Ned and Tywin who both seem dedicated to their families (despite the differences in morals). 

 

On 27/07/2017 at 9:15 AM, devilish said:

Tywin sees marriages as a chess game and yet he himself married out of love

Never is this claimed. When asked not only does the author claim to not remember which of the last three Lannister Lords arranged the marriage but gives an entirely credible reason why this marriage was needed. And clearly this seems a common theme in his work, just look at the Stark family tree, only sons Lord Cregan and Rickard married Stark cousins while the heir of Winterfell, Rickon, has his only two children marry other Starks. Securing power from other family members in medieval/Westeros culture sometimes needs cousins marrying to prevent possible War of the Roses/Dance of the Dragson/Lions/Direwolves

 

12 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

I see this as the other way around - it is Amerei who is the Lady Darry and it's Lancel - a landless son of a household knight - who married up. 

Gregor Clegane killed the last male(s) of House Darry, the title going to sister of the last Lord (or maybe aunt? Father'\s sister, in that case) Mariya Frey nee Darry, wife to Merret Frey. Amerei is her eldest living child. With no living son - Little Walder dead - eldest daughter gets it.

 

Little Walder died after Lancel was awarded the title, not before. The crown has stripped the lands from the Darrys and made someone else their Lord. Should Lancel die or give away the lands they don't revert back to the Darrys but back to the Crown. 

Kevan was just being smart, having his son marry someone with Darry blood to try and quickly get the smallfolk on side. 

Lancel is of higher birth than Amerei. One Grandfather was  the Lords of the Westerlands the other the Knight of the Cornfield (a prestigious and old House) which trumps Lords Frey and Darry, while Kevan is a prestigious and well regarded and admired noble of Westeros who served on the Small Council while Hosteen is something of a joke.  And lastly Lancel is a cousin to a King, served as a squire to another King and is a (decorated at least) war hero while Amerie is a disgraced daughter who has already been married and lost her virginity. 

Lancel, not by much mind, is the one who is marrying down in this relationship. The Lannisters are rich enough and influential enough that all Lannisters who are closely related to the current Lord can expect high profile marriages. Daven was seemingly going to marry the only daughter of Lord Redwyne till his Tywin promised him to a Frey. 

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

47 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said:

Alayne Stone and Harrold Hardyng (betrothed).

 

The moment Robin has a child of his own Harry becomes a penniless landed knight while Alyane remains the acknowledged, seemingly beloved only child of the Lord of the Riverlands. 

 

[The Knight of Flours]

10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The moment Robin has a child of his own Harry becomes a penniless landed knight while Alyane remains the acknowledged, seemingly beloved only child of the Lord of the Riverlands. 

I would be surprised if Robert Arryn reaches adulthood, let alone manages to father a child who will themselves live to adulthood.

Anyway, not like we will ever know.

[Bernie Mac]

22 minutes ago, The Knight of Flours said:

I would be surprised if Robert Arryn reaches adulthood, let alone manages to father a child who will themselves live to adulthood.

Anyway, not like we will ever know.

Well sure, we know that Littlefinger has been poisoning him. To the rest of the Vale he is just a young Lord who is five years away from being able to marry and produce more heirs. At that point Harry's hand in marriage loses a huge amount of value being that he has no lands or titles of his own. 

The value in Harry is the possibility, this is the reason why no other Lord would meet Litttlefingers offer as Littlefinger has his hands on the scale when it comes to Harry's future. 

[TMIFairy]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The moment Robin has a child of his own Harry becomes a penniless landed knight .

Isn't Harry the heir to the Hardyng estate? Or is he from some landless side branch of that family?

Thank you for correcting me on the timeline - i.e. Lancel getting Darry while Little Walder was still among the living. Nevertheless IMO the main lopsidedness in that match is Amerei's reputation.

A future lopsided match will be Sansa and Sandor. This marriage has been foreshadowed in many ways ...

[devilish]

18 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

is a perfect Targ marriage, very creepy but hey thats what the Targs are into.

C) Stannis and Selyse wasnt a horrible marriage per say since the Florents have one of the greatest claims on Highgarden and this marriage was used to scare house Tyrell into submission.

D) Mellario was a high noble nothing wrong with this match either. 

 

Selsye wasn't even from the Florent's main branch.

 

[TMIFairy]

17 minutes ago, devilish said:

Selsye wasn't even from the Florent's main branch.

Melessa was already married to Randyl Tarly. We do not know Rhea's age - so maybe she was already married to Hightower - or simply too young to wed at that time.

So, Selyse might have been the seniormost nubile daughter of House Florent at that moment.

[WeKnowNothing]

On 27 July 2017 at 9:16 AM, devilish said:

Robert Baratheon's no 1 fan boy daddy

If you mean Marna Locke, she married Edwyln Stark and they had one son called Rickard. Rickard Stark later married his first cousin Lyarra Stark. This marriage mirrors Tywins marriage with his first cousin Joanna, meaning that they both marry a woman from their own houses...probably not getting much out of it except uniting two branches of the family.

[devilish]

5 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Melessa was already married to Randyl Tarly. We do not know Rhea's age - so maybe she was already married to Hightower - or simply too young to wed at that time.

So, Selyse might have been the seniormost nubile daughter of House Florent at that moment.

She's still not part of the main branch. Its like marrying Lancel Lannister with the difference that the Florents are nowhere near the Lannisters

The heir to the crown and Lord of Dragonstone deserved way better. Maybe there's more behind Robert gatecrashing his wedding and sleeping with someone with equal standing to the Florent girl

[devilish]

37 minutes ago, WeKnowNothing said:

If you mean Marna Locke, she married Edwyln Stark and they had one son called Rickard. Rickard Stark later married his first cousin Lyarra Stark. This marriage mirrors Tywins marriage with his first cousin Joanna, meaning that they both marry a woman from their own houses...probably not getting much out of it except uniting two branches of the family.

Its still one sided though.

[Bernie Mac]

6 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Isn't Harry the heir to the Hardyng estate? Or is he from some landless side branch of that family?

It is still unclear who the Hadyng's are, if they are actual Vale Lords in their own right or just vassals of the Waynwoods. However Harry's father was just a landed knight, it is unclear if they were the main branch of Hardyng or not. So you are right, he is the heir of something. 

"...That left the youngest, who wed a landed knight sworn to the Waynwoods, gave him a son that she named Harrold, and perished."

Interestingly we do know of another Hardyng in the current series, Deana Frey, wife of Walton Frey, whose mother is a Waynwood. She may well be an aunt of Harry's. 

 

5 hours ago, devilish said:

Selsye wasn't even from the Florent's main branch.

 

She actually may well have been as we don't know when her grandfather, the previous Lord Florent, died. It may well have been him who arranged the marriage. No one distinguishes the sons of Ryman Frey as the main branch of House Frey, all of Walder's children are considered the main branch. 

I'd also point out that nephews and nieces are considered part of the main branch. Cat herself points this out

"Ser Stafford Lannister, it's said." He turned to gaze out over the rivers, his red-and-blue cloak stirring in the breeze.

"Another nephew?" The Lannisters of Casterly Rock were a damnably large and fertile house.

 

Plus it may well be that Selyse has a slightly better ancestry than Melessa and Rhea, whose mother was a Crane. Ryam may have married a Hightower, Tyrell or some other House that was more prestigious than the Cranes. 

 

34 minutes ago, devilish said:

Its still one sided though.

Not really as it strengthens the main branch. GRRM points out that these kind of marriages were done for practical purposes, not the whims of the current Lords. Both sides are getting something practical out of the marriage. 

[WeKnowNothing]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

Its still one sided though.

Marna Locke's marriage with Edwyln Stark wasn't one sided because the Locke's were a northern house, so it could have been a marriage for the loyalty of house Locke for example. Rickard and Lyarra's marriage also wasn't really one sided, it's just like Tywin and Joanna's - they unite two branches of the house under a marriage, therefore reducing the risks by a huge amount of any potential conflicts in the family.

[devilish]

18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is still unclear who the Hadyng's are, if they are actual Vale Lords in their own right or just vassals of the Waynwoods. However Harry's father was just a landed knight, it is unclear if they were the main branch of Hardyng or not. So you are right, he is the heir of something. 

"...That left the youngest, who wed a landed knight sworn to the Waynwoods, gave him a son that she named Harrold, and perished."

Interestingly we do know of another Hardyng in the current series, Deana Frey, wife of Walton Frey, whose mother is a Waynwood. She may well be an aunt of Harry's. 

 

She actually may well have been as we don't know when her grandfather, the previous Lord Florent, died. It may well have been him who arranged the marriage. No one distinguishes the sons of Ryman Frey as the main branch of House Frey, all of Walder's children are considered the main branch. 

I'd also point out that nephews and nieces are considered part of the main branch. Cat herself points this out

"Ser Stafford Lannister, it's said." He turned to gaze out over the rivers, his red-and-blue cloak stirring in the breeze.

"Another nephew?" The Lannisters of Casterly Rock were a damnably large and fertile house.

 

Plus it may well be that Selyse has a slightly better ancestry than Melessa and Rhea, whose mother was a Crane. Ryam may have married a Hightower, Tyrell or some other House that was more prestigious than the Cranes. 

 

Not really as it strengthens the main branch. GRRM points out that these kind of marriages were done for practical purposes, not the whims of the current Lords. Both sides are getting something practical out of the marriage. 

By the time Stannis got married he was the Lord of the Stormlands with a house of his own. He was also Robert’s heir and an experienced and battle proven warrior. If Robert died leaving Joffrey as a pup then Stannis would have probably became the Lord Protector of the realm. I can see Arryn, Tully and Ned agreeing to that. 

 So lets have a look at the benefits Stannis enjoyed thanks to his association to the Florent girl. His wedding was gate crashed by Robert who soiled Stannis wedding bed by sleeping with his wife’s cousin (whose also a Florent). Sure, Robert was notorious to be a womaniser. However, he also knew how to keep it in his pants. He wasn’t spotted in Winterfell shagging Sansa didn’t he? Also out of so many women attending Stannis’s wedding, Robert chose a Florent with equal standing to Stannis’s wife. That’s quite a co-incidence isn’t it?

But lets assume that it’s in fact a coincidence. What benefits did Stannis assume out of marrying Selyse? After that wedding, Robert relationship with Stannis seemed to have soured. Stannis banished Robert’s bastard to the Stormlands while Robert turned down Stannis proposition to make prostitution illegal. Renly whom (out of pure ‘coincidence’) was very close to the Tyrells was given the Stormlands. That provided him with a 60k army during the war of 5 kings. The Florents brought 2k.

 Not only that, but after Renly died, the Tyrells had no choice but to swallow their pride and bend the knee to Joffrey. Stannis was too much of a rogue for them. They probably saw him as a man who still held grievances regarding Storm’s end siege and had clearly showed such grievances by desperately marrying a knight’s daughter but whose family had equal claim to the Reach. Even if that wasn’t the case, a victorious Stannis would have had no choice but to reward the Florents for their loyalty and we all know what the Florents wanted.
 

[devilish]

18 hours ago, WeKnowNothing said:

Marna Locke's marriage with Edwyln Stark wasn't one sided because the Locke's were a northern house, so it could have been a marriage for the loyalty of house Locke for example. Rickard and Lyarra's marriage also wasn't really one sided, it's just like Tywin and Joanna's - they unite two branches of the house under a marriage, therefore reducing the risks by a huge amount of any potential conflicts in the family.

I think we need to acknowledge a clear distinction here between two types of marriages here

. 
a-    A marriage done when the realm is strong and stable (Apologies to our British mates). A time when the LP/Warden power is completely secure and where there’s no risk of advancement or demotion.
b-    A marriage done at a time of instability (ex war of 5 kings or during the kings of winter) or possible instability (ie after the battle of 9 penny kings, when LPs and wardens seem to have ganged up together to be able to better oppose any possible reforms done by the king)

Under choice A. Marriage is pretty much trivial. LPs/Wardens will probably use betrothal to reward the most loyal banner men (a sort of medieval version of employee reward scheme) or simply to boost their fertility rate.

Under choice B. Betrothal become more complex and the wrong betrothal can cost the house’s future. We all know how Cat flipped when Robb married a Westerling instead within a more powerful family, that despite both being noble houses. I also think that Robert would have never became king if Rhaegar married Cersei or even Lyanna (both houses could raise more troops then Dorne) instead of Elia.
 

So if we're using choice B mentality/circumstances to judge choice A then yes Locke marriage was indeed one sided same as Joanna's. I doubt Lady Tarbeck would have dared going toe to toe against the Lannisters if Tywin happened to be married to a Tyrell instead to his cousin. A 70k combined army can act as a very strong disincentive.