Final Solution to the Ironman question; Carrot or Stick?

[devilish]

7 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

Probably the most reasonable solution on here (besides my own, of course). Maybe the North deserves cut more than the Reach though. Especially if it was Ned, Tywin and Stannis who did the heavy lifting in quashing the rebellion.

You need Lords whose rich (hence they can pump alot of gold in the region) and has a fleet to put their IB Lords in place, just in case, they rebel. If they did, heads, spikes and IB Lords are replaced with Reach/Stormlands/Westerlands Lords

[TMIFairy]

Installing the Harlows as Lord of the Iron Islands does not guaranty anything - Quellon Greyjoy  was succeded by Balon.

So Rodrik's heirs may well be the same sort of arseholes like Balon or Euron.

The entire "culture" needs to be destroyed.

[John Doe]

14 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Installing the Harlows as Lord of the Iron Islands does not guaranty anything - Quellon Greyjoy  was succeded by Balon.

So Rodrik's heirs may well be the same sort of arseholes like Balon or Euron.

The entire "culture" needs to be destroyed.

But first the Targaryens need to be destroyed. You could have another mad king in no time.

[John Doe]

On 27.7.2017 at 3:37 AM, Jon Ice-Eyes said:

Also, the thread name 'Final Solution'... really not a good look. Super bad. 

At least it's honest. The Starks should be exterminated for their defiance too, while we're at it.

[TMIFairy]

26 minutes ago, John Doe said:

But first the Targaryens need to be destroyed. You could have another mad king in no time.

Sorry - but what's the connection between eradication/appeasement of the IB and Taragryens?

[devilish]

I come from a country which, at one point, it was in fact, the smaller version of the IS including the same strong link between religion, piracy and power. 

-    Changing Lords will help a little especially if religion is tied to it. A change of guard will mean little by itself. Ultimately the new LP will still have to feed the smallfolk and since the IS are poor their only alternative option is reaving.
-    A final solution strategy might make matters worse. Deserted islands are perfect hiding spots for Essosi pirates who will probably use the IS as outposts to hit the Western side of Westeros and flee before the crown can do anything about it. 
The only solution to this issue is
-    Be tough towards dissenters
-    Provide an alternative way for the Ironborn to feed themselves
-    Encourage and reward compliance

How can that be achieved?

a-    Important members of most IB nobility are taken as wards. These people represent the future of the IS so they will be treated well and given a westerosi upbringing. Let their fathers know that if anyone starts a revolt he won’t just condemn his own children to a painful death but also that of his bannermen. I doubt many would follow such a fool.
b-    The Greyjoys should lose their lands and titles. A tough foreign ruler (Stannis?) should take Pyke and the richest parts of the IS (Harlaw and Orkmont). Without the burden of the remaining IS, these two islands should prosper even without reaving. 
c-    Stannis is appointed master of ships with his part of the IR fleet becoming part of the royal fleet. The crown will pay these people to serve the crown rather than fight against it. 
d-    The rest of the IR is divided between the richest regions in Westeros (ie the Westerlands and the Reach).  Surely the likes of Tywin and Mace would acknowledge the IB worth at sea and would be willing to pump money in the IS to keep them loyal.  The Starks might also be interested in having them especially since the shivering sea is the richest fishing ground in the whole land.  
 

[TheThreeEyedCow]

The Stick.

The first Damphair chapter (the Prophet) in aFfC gives us a key insight. It looks as though Goodbrother is far more inclined to embrace the seven. He keeps his maester present despite Aeron's protest. It would be fair to suggest that House Goodbrother have actually benefited from peace with the IT as they're invested in mining and not raiding. Preventing them from doing this would only leave them desperate. No one people are truly unified, there are cracks where the seeds of insurrection can be planted. And I think this is the way it will go. 

I can't explain Goodbrother's eventual support for Euron. I would say it's either due to the magical horn or Goodbrother doesn't fancy going the same way as Sawane Botley. 

I think the 7K would need to reenact the Roman Invasion of Britain. I appreciate your sentiments regarding Robert but truth be told he was a bit of a lazy one. Instead of remaining on Pyke, subduing the hateful religion, he made fwends... 
It was a half measure and left the fot7 at the mercy of angry IB.

So for me it would mean another war, followed by a lengthy occupation eradicating their religion whilst converting them to the 7. You encourage fishing, mining and trading, and allow the ones who do to thrive. A maester in every keep and a sept in every town. All very costly and time consuming. Cersei would just have them exterminated. 

[TMIFairy]

If the problem is "poow dawlings must weave to fill dey tummies" then forced resetlement is the way to go. Less mouths to feed.

The Islands' population cannot be more than half a million and probably closer to 350,000.

Deporting the "culture carrying" elite - numbering tens of thousands - is safely within limits of local technology and ship supply. And there is lots and lots of land to settle them on ...

[SerDuncanTheShort]

Aren't we forgetting that Asha almost won the kingsmoot with her peace-policy before Euron showed up? That makes me think that the ironborn don't have to be a lost cause. Although I wouldn't personally know how you'd go about pacifying them...

 

On 7/27/2017 at 10:44 PM, Stormking902 said:

The only true solution is to exterminate house Greyjoy for their defiance and install house Harlaw as the new Great house, with the reader as lord I would grant him lands in the North probably a lot of the gift so that the Ironborn can logically survive without reaving in the first place and if house Umber had something to say I would tell house Stark handle it or I will. I would force marriages upon houses so family ties were built, I would destroy 2/3 of the Iron fleet untill there loyalty is assured. Each house gives up a "ward" for even more security.  

I would PROMISE this would be the last chance for the Ironborn the next time would be genocide unfortunately, I would have this in writting and make each lord sign so that they ALL know the consequences of another rebellion.  I wouldnt actually go threw with the genocide but I would have my poker face on for sure lol. 

 

I like your plans. Stormking902! Stormking902 king!

On 7/27/2017 at 2:07 PM, Orphalesion said:

^This. The Iron Born are just like the Dothraki in this manner. Those two peoples are also laughably "evil" when compared to the real world. In our history the Vikings eventually either 1)settled in nicer lands, assimilating into the local culture or 2) used the resources to improve their homes and eventually stopped being Vikings, while various warrior nomads over the ages conquered more advanced people and became their ruling classes. The Iron Born and Dothraki, meanwhile, practice killing, plundering and raping for the sake of killing, plundering and raping, tying them to both their cultures and religions.

 

Hey, I never really noticed that but yeah that's a good point. It would have been nice if the ironborn had a more cultured side too I think. I wonder if Martin deliberately chose to make them simplistic or if it was just carelessness.

[Dukhasinov]

On 7/26/2017 at 7:29 AM, Lord Vance II said:

 

W..what do you think Sherman did? The South still exists, I've been there. 

 

"This war differs from other wars, in this particular. We are not fighting armies but a hostile people, and must make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war." -William Tecumseh Sherman

 

Sherman didn`t directly kill many civilians, but he gutted the infrastucture everywhere he went. He destroyed rail lines, burned farms and grain elevators, broke canals and levies. Between the Civil War and the end of WWII, the standard of living of much of the rural South was roughly on par with Bangladesh.
 

[Dukhasinov]

15 hours ago, devilish said:

I come from a country which, at one point, it was in fact, the smaller version of the IS including the same strong link between religion, piracy and power. 

 

My guess is either Denmark or Tunisia.

 

Long occupations and granting land to foreign lords is exactly the situation that creates long, bloody insurgencies. That`s what happened to Ser Aubrey Crakehal. If you`re going to try and change the culture of the Islands by replacing people, you need to start at the bottom, not the top. Instead of setting lords from the Green Lands over a seething mass of angry Ironborn (who will eventually drag him out of his castle and drown him in the sea) deport large numbers of common born Ironmen and give their land to settlers from the mainland. Having them settle the Gift isn`t a bad idea. This worked pretty well for England in their subjugation of the Irish, but they ran out of steam once they finished resettling Ulster. That`s why Northern Ireland is still part of the U.K.

 

   Most of the point of my "Stick" plan is about crippling their ability to conduct raids for as long as possible, given the limits of the Seven Kingdoms` military capability. Destroying all of their ports and boats will create an immediate need to replace their fishing fleet quickly, or starve. This will deplete their forests, and hopefully leave little timber left to build longships. Destroying their mines will leave them little to trade for foreign timber. 

[TMIFairy]

1 hour ago, Dukhasinov said:

Long occupations and granting land to foreign lords is exactly the situation that creates long, bloody insurgencies. That`s what happened to Ser Aubrey Crakehal. If you`re going to try and change the culture of the Islands by replacing people, you need to start at the bottom, not the top. Instead of setting lords from the Green Lands over a seething mass of angry Ironborn (who will eventually drag him out of his castle and drown him in the sea) deport large numbers of common born Ironmen and give their land to settlers from the mainland. Having them settle the Gift isn`t a bad idea. This worked pretty well for England in their subjugation of the Irish, but they ran out of steam once they finished resettling Ulster. That`s why Northern Ireland is still part of the U.K.

 

Replacing the nobility only worked quite well for the Normans in England, though.

But I fully support the smallfolk swap. Speeds up the process. Deportations and "smallfok replacement" worked for the Assyrians some three thousand year ago so it must be the Right Thing To Do in such circumstances.

My "stick - light" version:

1 - replace all - or almost all - nobility with Greenlander imports. The newcomers can marry daughters of deposed nobles, a time honoured Westerosi tradition. The rest of the Seven Kingdoms is happy to be rid of several hundred 2nd/3rd sons and hedge knights. The opportunity to re-allocate land allows for the creation of Landed Knights, eliminating - or limiting - the emergence of Lords capable of challenging the Lord Paramount. Yes, a leaf from the Norman Conquest book. It did not work out so well for the Norman Monarchy   

2 - exterminate Drowned Men and destroy the Old Wyk centre of worship; This is IMO imperative - the Old Way MUST be eradicated. Another RL solution is to erect Septs over the sites of Drowned God worship - worked like a charm for Christianity

3 - if there is serious overpopulation - then deport part of the Ironborn (non-Thrall) smallfolk.

4 - all and any Thralls get upgraded to "ordinary smallfolk" if they embrace the Faith/Old Gods. Meh - an even better idea is IMO freeing the Thralls wholesale - in such a case embracing the Faith could elevate the ex-Thralls to Freeholders (Yeomen?) - the topmost level of smallfolk. This creates a sizeable segment of the population very happy with the new arrangement and hopefully ready to fight to uphold the New Regime. For US readers  - as the name of Sherman hath been spoken - think "40 acres and a mule" actually being carried out 

Bringing over the ex-Thralls over to the side of the New Regime also eliminates the need to bring over Greenlander smallfolk. With the right sort of "spin" being descended from a salt-wife could become a source of pride.

 

 

 

[Graydon Hicks]

i definitely think that they are a lost cause. even if you could force a peaceful co-existence philosophy and lifestyle on them, encourage trade instead of pillage, ect, it would only hold for a couple of generations at most. their culture, their very way in which they identify and perceive themselves, is bound up in thousands of years of plundering, murdering, reaving and raping. their own religion tells them that their drowned god made them to do just that, to ransack the lands. they only way to bring a complete halt to this lifestyle isnt to encourage trade and peaceful co-operation. that philosophy strikes at the very heart of their culture identity, its an insult to them in the most profound way possible. to break the reaving, you have to break them, break their culture, their self identities as iron born. you have to break their religion. their very way of life. only then will they stop looking to reaving and raping as the proper life of the iron born. kill their god in their eyes, and you break their spirit. then can they be molded into something that will fit into the rest of the realm.

[devilish]

On 29/07/2017 at 7:28 AM, Dukhasinov said:

My guess is either Denmark or Tunisia.

 

Long occupations and granting land to foreign lords is exactly the situation that creates long, bloody insurgencies. That`s what happened to Ser Aubrey Crakehal. If you`re going to try and change the culture of the Islands by replacing people, you need to start at the bottom, not the top. Instead of setting lords from the Green Lands over a seething mass of angry Ironborn (who will eventually drag him out of his castle and drown him in the sea) deport large numbers of common born Ironmen and give their land to settlers from the mainland. Having them settle the Gift isn`t a bad idea. This worked pretty well for England in their subjugation of the Irish, but they ran out of steam once they finished resettling Ulster. That`s why Northern Ireland is still part of the U.K.

 

   Most of the point of my "Stick" plan is about crippling their ability to conduct raids for as long as possible, given the limits of the Seven Kingdoms` military capability. Destroying all of their ports and boats will create an immediate need to replace their fishing fleet quickly, or starve. This will deplete their forests, and hopefully leave little timber left to build longships. Destroying their mines will leave them little to trade for foreign timber. 

You made the wrong guess 

I don't think that the culture should be changed tbh. In my country something similar was tried twice and both ended up in misery. Instead you need Lords who can give an alternative and better way of living to the IB. Piracy might be lucrative but its a highly risk business. My country is pelted with chapels built by this gentlemen because they were able to come out of a sticky situation alive. Violence also breeds violence and my country was at the receiving end of a countless number of raids including 2 great sieges were a ridiculous amount of people died or were taken as slaves. If these people could afford a decent living without having to risk their neck all the time then they will probably opt for that option.

If money start flowing from the Westerlands, the Reach, the crownlands and the IB itself (ie Harlaw would probably be rich if it doesn't have to carry the rest of the IS) then these lands won't need reaving. IB will become traders or their fleet will be utilised to protect the Westerlands, the Reach and the North shores similar to what the Redywnes do. Stannis's fleet can become part of the crown's fleet with IB becoming employees to the crown.

Its of mutual benefit for both the IB and the remaining Westeros. Imagine what a powerhouse the North would become if they could rely on a fleet. They won't be dependent on the Riverlands anymore, they wont need an army to protect them from the IB + a fleet will secure trade with Essos. The Shivering sea is the richest sea in all GRRM's world. So during winter, fishermen can provide food to the North.

 

 

 

 

[Lord Vance II]

On 7/29/2017 at 2:06 AM, Dukhasinov said:

Sherman didn`t directly kill many civilians, but he gutted the infrastucture everywhere he went. He destroyed rail lines, burned farms and grain elevators, broke canals and levies. Between the Civil War and the end of WWII, the standard of living of much of the rural South was roughly on par with Bangladesh.

Union armies tore up rail lines everywhere they went the whole war, but Sherman's famous hardcore march to the sea only really affected Georgia, and even then it was mostly confined to a swath roughly 80 miles wide between Atlanta and Savannah. It's not like Sherman marched back and forth across the south burning everything. He totally wrecked Georgia, crippled the last bastions of southern industry and pioneered total war, but he didn't totally destroy the South. The eventual plan was to bring them back into the Union, not sow their fields with salt and make them unable to recover. 

And comparing it to Bangladesh is a bit much don't you think? Shit's sweltering hot but there was still plenty of money. 

But Civil War discussions aside, I think your plan to slowly murder every man, woman and child on the Iron Islands sounds much more in the wheelhouse of Stalin, Hitler or Andrew Jackson than Fightin' Wllie T. It's a pretty big leap to go from total war, economy ruining campaign to an extermination plan. 

[Dukhasinov]

On 7/30/2017 at 3:24 AM, devilish said:

You made the wrong guess 

I don't think that the culture should be changed tbh. In my country something similar was tried twice and both ended up in misery. Instead you need Lords who can give an alternative and better way of living to the IB. Piracy might be lucrative but its a highly risk business. My country is pelted with chapels built by this gentlemen because they were able to come out of a sticky situation alive. Violence also breeds violence and my country was at the receiving end of a countless number of raids including 2 great sieges were a ridiculous amount of people died or were taken as slaves. 

 

 

 

 

Link between religion, piracy, and power. Two great sieges.... Algeria or Libya. I might guess Malta, but they only had one great siege. Might those "gentlemen" be Oruc Reis and Heyreddin Barbarossa?

[devilish]

4 hours ago, Dukhasinov said:

Link between religion, piracy, and power. Two great sieges.... Algeria or Libya. I might guess Malta, but they only had one great siege. Might those "gentlemen" be Oruc Reis and Heyreddin Barbarossa?

Malta had two sieges actually. Prior to the great siege there was the siege of 1429. Its less advertised (no knights to bail out this time round) but it was equally impressive. 18k Saracens landed on the islands whom, at the time, had an 19k population and a standing army of 300 militia and one obsolete fort in Mdina. It should have been a rather straightforward affair, but as usual the Maltese ended up throwing the kitchen sink at them and they were able to repel the invasion but not before taking a substantial chunk of the population into slavery. 

Reaving is a lucrative business but its a rather dangerous one. An increase in reaving during the knights era lead to a sharp increase of reaving against Malta. Dragut whose brother (+ later on himself) was killed in Malta lead countless numbers of successful raids including the sacking of Gozo were the entire population there was taken into slavery. Every citizen in Malta lived in constant fear of yet another siege, which nearly occurred when some Maltese pirates managed to assault and capture an important Ottoman galley (ie the Ottomans were a superpower at the time). That galley happened to be carrying one of the Sultan's wifes + her son so you can imagine the outrage of it. Luckily for the Maltese the Sultan decided to vent his anger towards Venice instead.

Long story short. If given a choice then people would not reave for a living. Hence why, if the IT want the IS to stop reaving then it must make sure

a- that it provides them with an alternative way of living.

b- It removes out of the equation any Lords whose ideology forces them to reave. (in Malta's case the knights of St John)

 

 

 

[Graydon Hicks]

but that doesnt combat their cultural imperative to reave. the ironborn culture is as old as any on westeros, as old as the first men, predate the andal invasion. and for all those thousands of years, they have been a culture of reaving and raping the mainland, first for resources that were scarce on the isles, like tress and lumber, then for profit, for thralls, gold, and other goods, they didnt want to make for themselves. its not that offering them a better alternative and eliminating their leadership will make them stop reaving for more than a generation or two. they culture and society are so different from the mainlanders. every ironborn, if he isnt a fisherman, is a reaver. anything else is seen as far beneath them, suitable for soft greenlanders and thralls, not for sailors as hard as the iron pulled from soil of their isles. its not just their leaders and lords telling to go and pillage, like it would be for the mainlanders. every man there on the isles wants to go out and reave, and bring home a bounty of treasures and goods, and thralls to serve as servants and salt wives. its as bred deep into their society, from lords to commoners, to plunder the world, to purchase their prizes with the iron price, one and all, just as reverence for a faced weirwood tree is for the blood of the first men, or the awe of knights is for the andals. its in their goddamn religion, their drowned god doctrine and priests teach and call for the ironborn to go out and reave.

just replacing their lords and offering them the profitable opportunities of trade wont make them stop. they dont want to stop. its not only the wealth that reaving brings to the ironborn. its the prestige that reaping the worlds coastal lands bring them as well.

 

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Graydon Hicks said:

but that doesnt combat their cultural imperative to reave. the ironborn culture is as old as any on westeros, as old as the first men, predate the andal invasion. and for all those thousands of years, they have been a culture of reaving and raping the mainland, first for resources that were scarce on the isles, like tress and lumber, then for profit, for thralls, gold, and other goods, they didnt want to make for themselves. its not that offering them a better alternative and eliminating their leadership will make them stop reaving for more than a generation or two. they culture and society are so different from the mainlanders. every ironborn, if he isnt a fisherman, is a reaver. anything else is seen as far beneath them, suitable for soft greenlanders and thralls, not for sailors as hard as the iron pulled from soil of their isles. its not just their leaders and lords telling to go and pillage, like it would be for the mainlanders. every man there on the isles wants to go out and reave, and bring home a bounty of treasures and goods, and thralls to serve as servants and salt wives. its as bred deep into their society, from lords to commoners, to plunder the world, to purchase their prizes with the iron price, one and all, just as reverence for a faced weirwood tree is for the blood of the first men, or the awe of knights is for the andals. its in their goddamn religion, their drowned god doctrine and priests teach and call for the ironborn to go out and reave.

just replacing their lords and offering them the profitable opportunities of trade wont make them stop. they dont want to stop. its not only the wealth that reaving brings to the ironborn. its the prestige that reaping the worlds coastal lands bring them as well.

 

Reaving on the islands predated the knights and remained there up until Napoleon Bonaparte invaded the islands. After the collapse of the Roman empire, the islands lost its status as the Monaco of the empire and was sacked many times. At one point it was invaded by the Arabs. The islands was impoverished, it was largely depopulated and the country was sent to the dark ages. It returned into prominence when Count Roger invaded the islands, freeing the Christians who were, at the time, reduced to dhimmi status. For many many centuries Christianity represented freedom for these people and reaving represented a way how to get one against the 'infidel' enemy and bring much needed gold to the islands. So lets not kid ourselves to think that the island mentality changed as soon as the Knights took over. If that's was the case then the Maltese would have bent the knee to Suleiman's generous proposal instead of them going toe to toe with a superpower. That what happened in Rhodes after all. 

Remnants of this mentality still survive till this very day. Some churches still parade statues  of saints crushing Muslims heads with their feet. The whole Good Friday procession is heavily influenced by the crusaders (ie the big cross infront, people wearing capirote which has origins to the flagellants etc. Also the knights of st John's flag is still called 'of the religion'.

Reavers were lethal at sea but on the islands they were respectable members of society. They built a countless amount of chapels, they adorned statues and they were loved by the smallfolk who considered them as philantropists and heroes. The church was central to the local society. In matter of fact, the French occupation lasted just 2 years and ended up in a civil war, mainly because the former decided to nick the gold from the filthy rich churches.

Changing a country's culture is very tough but with careful management you can certianly tweak it to acceptable levels and make good use of it. The British empire was staunchly protestant (ie heretics too) but they learnt not to mess in church business as long as the church doesn't mess in political matters. The Maltese were hired in droves in the British navy and they expanded the ship building providing thousands of people with work. Such relationship withstood the big 'test' ie WW2 were the Maltese had to choose between their coloniser and their historical brothers ie the Italians. Similarly to Suleiman the latter offered a far generous deal then the current rulers (ie integration as opposed to colonisation) but that didn't swayed the locals to defect. Loyalty costed the Maltese dear, with the islands ended up the most bombed up country in WW2 and its people nearly starved to death. Similarly to the great siege, the Maltese threw the kitchen sink at the Nazis/Fascists and it was common for the locals to lie about their age just to join the army. My grandfather was 15 years of age and he was one of the finest AA shooters on the islands. 

My advice is

a- remove the extremists
b- give the IS to Lords with a different mentality but with decent diplomacy skills
c- integrate the IB's economy with that of Westeros. Let them work on trading ships, transfer many IB to KL were they will work on repairing ships and make sure that their fleet is assimilated in other navies.
 

and they won't rebel. No one would dare risking his job, his livelyhood and his life (and that of his family) for some extremist lord with no chance of winning. 

 

 

 

[John Doe]

If you want to kill them, you need to kill all of them, or else come back every generation to kill enough of them so they don't become a nuisance. That would be what Sparta did to the Helots. So either genocide is your thing, which makes me wonder why you dislike the Ironborn, who are better than that, or it won't work. Listen to the guy from Malta. 

 

On 28.7.2017 at 3:14 PM, TMIFairy said:

Sorry - but what's the connection between eradication/appeasement of the IB and Taragryens?

Both are responsible for destruction, the Targaryens caused a lot more than the Ironborn though. So they are the bigger problem.