Final Solution to the Ironman question; Carrot or Stick?

[devilish]

2 hours ago, John Doe said:

If you want to kill them, you need to kill all of them, or else come back every generation to kill enough of them so they don't become a nuisance. That would be what Sparta did to the Helots. So either genocide is your thing, which makes me wonder why you dislike the Ironborn, who are better than that, or it won't work. Listen to the guy from Malta. 

 

Both are responsible for destruction, the Targaryens caused a lot more than the Ironborn though. So they are the bigger problem. 

 

 

I don't think genocide would sort it either. There's a reason why cultures develop in the way they do. In my country's case it was the collapse of a stable and rich empire which brought a decline in trade and made the seas a rather dangerous place to be in. The locals became pirates because they needed to feed their family. Sure religion caught up quite quickly since the Berbers corsairs (whom in turn were also victims since they were mostly made up of Muslim people who got kicked out of Spain following the reconquista) happened to follow a different religion.That made them 'the enemy' (and us to them) as we were busy stealing and hating one another. However ultimately it was a war between poor people who did outrageous things to feed their own people and needed something to justify it (A higher good or God).

So if you replace the IB with thousands of Northerners/Stormlanders/Reach smallfolk in the IS then they will breed. Soon enough food will become scarse and because of it they will have no choice but to steal it from somebody else.

Some might say ok then, lets just vacate the islands and keep them unhabitable. However, from history, these sort of decisions usually make things worse. These islands will become the ideal temporary platforms for other corsairs to launch quick assaults to the main land. It happened also in Malta were Comino became a pirate bay up until the knights decided to invest heavily on a fortress there (which appeared in the Count of Monte Cristo movie with prime actor Gerard Depardieu). Comino is a spit of land compared to the iron islands which means that Westeros will have to commit an entire standing army there just to keep it safe.

As said. The only way to sort this is

a- to remove the extremists and reward the moderates
b- give the IS an alternative and better way of living then reaving
c- make sure that Westeros wealth flows into the IS

Soon enough the people there will sink so deep into Westerosi pockets that they wouldn't even contemplate rebelling. Till present time most well of people on the islands can either trace themselves to nobility or to people who had decent jobs with the British empire. In matter of fact there is still a town in Malta (were the latter lived) were people are more comfortable speaking in English then in Maltese. 

Sure, there will always been the odd revolutionist. We had those during WW2 like Borg Pisani and Enrico Mizzi (who happened to be a leader of one of the biggest party on the islands). There again no one on the islands really supported their effort with the former being handled over to the authorities and the latter ending up spending the war in an internment camp in Uganda. 

 

[Damon_Tor]

 

On 7/27/2017 at 0:44 PM, Stormking902 said:

I would PROMISE this would be the last chance for the Ironborn the next time would be genocide unfortunately, I would have this in writting and make each lord sign so that they ALL know the consequences of another rebellion.  I wouldnt actually go threw with the genocide but I would have my poker face on for sure lol.

So imagine, then, that you've promised these islands that the next time they lose a war all their wives and children will be slaughtered. That won't stop reaving: there are plenty of young, single men whose best shot at passing on their genes is to sail off and rape some greenlanders and who don't give a damn what happens to a homeland they largely despise. Will it stop a rebellion? Maybe it would delay a rebellion, until things got really bad, but remember, a key problem with the Iron Islands is that they're terrible places to live. Eventually things would get so bad they would be willing to risk genocide for a chance at self-determination. And once that rebellion starts? Your signed confession of intent to commit war crimes means there is no chance they will surrender, because you've already told them you will not allow them to do so. You've ensured that the next war will be to the death.

[norwaywolf123]

Annexation of the Iron Isles by the Westerlands.

Severly depopulating the Iron Isles or subjugating the indiginous population.

Colonisation of the iron isles by Westermen.

Outlawing the Drowned god and other heathenry

Confiscation of all properties, titles and priviliges held by Ironmen.

[Lion of the West]

I reject all forms of genocide as a means to solve the problem with the Ironmen. No matter how aweful these people are to us, genocide should be out of the question as its certainly beyond the line that can reasonably be crossed.

What I think should be done is that generations of Westerosi kings should be ready to reach out to reform oriented Lords of the Iron Islands and offer them support and perhaps positions for the Greyjoys on the Small Council for close family members. It will be long and difficult with many setbacks but its sure as hell better than genocide.

[norwaywolf123]

On 1.8.2017 at 10:14 PM, LionoftheWest said:

I reject all forms of genocide as a means to solve the problem with the Ironmen. No matter how aweful these people are to us, genocide should be out of the question as its certainly beyond the line that can reasonably be crossed.

What I think should be done is that generations of Westerosi kings should be ready to reach out to reform oriented Lords of the Iron Islands and offer them support and perhaps positions for the Greyjoys on the Small Council for close family members. It will be long and difficult with many setbacks but its sure as hell better than genocide.

Maybe a faith of the seven inquisition? Or is that taking it to far?

[TMIFairy]

On 1.08.2017 at 10:14 PM, LionoftheWest said:

I reject all forms of genocide as a means to solve the problem with the Ironmen. No matter how aweful these people are to us, genocide should be out of the question as its certainly beyond the line that can reasonably be crossed.

Genocide is indeed not a very nice thing to do.

Selling the IB wholesale into slavery would be a nice final solution but, alas, Westreros "does not do slavery". With the sole exception of the IB - how ironic ...

Back on topic - genocide simply is a waste of resources, but ethnic cleansing through deportations is economically sensible. Requires more initial outlay then selling into slavery, with no quick profit, the returns being spread over time. Yet deportations IMO ultimately deliver a better return on the money spent to free Westeros of the IB piracy problem.

[Lion of the West]

46 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Maybe a faith of the seven inquisition? Or is that taking it to far?

Since I'm not a fan of forced conversion I think that's taking it to far as well, even if its much more palatable than genocide.

36 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

Genocide is indeed not a very nice thing to do.

Selling the IB wholesale into slavery would be a nice final solution but, alas, Westreros "does not do slavery". With the sole exception of the IB - how ironic ...

Back on topic - genocide simply is a waste of resources, but ethnic cleansing through deportations is economically sensible. Requires more initial outlay then selling into slavery, with no quick profit, the returns being spread over time. Yet deportations IMO ultimately deliver a better return on the money spent to free Westeros of the IB piracy problem.

Personally I don't care much for the money aspect of this or that solution. I'm not a fan of slavers, Dothraki or Ironmen so slavery is not of interest to me, nor is ethnical cleansing with whatever fancy pretext that is attached. What I think would be better is something that I've outlined above, efforts a integrating the Ironmen with the rest of Westeros over time.

[Graydon Hicks]

well, you actually have to commit genocide, but you still have to break them, do to them what the andals did all the first men south of the neck, break their very culture, prove it inferior to that of the greenlanders. its their culture that calls for the reaving. mass deportations, rendering the entirety of the iron isles uninhabitable, save for tightly controlled mining operations, if the isles economic and environmental circumstances encourage reaving, then remove them from the equation some how. the population of the isles, the smallest of the kingdom provinces of the realm, should relatively small. making worshipping of the nihilistic drowned god outlawed, with severe penalties, (put tywin in charge) yes, it might be a re-enactment of the holocaust, but the jews never had the sheer antagonistic reputation of these pirates, so i wouldnt feel near so bad about their change of living conditions. make any iron born who attempted to resist go to the wall.

sorry, after everything i read in the world book, and everything that happened concerning balon and theon, i just cant stand these assholes

[Dukhasinov]

On 7/31/2017 at 8:21 AM, Lord Vance II said:

Union armies tore up rail lines everywhere they went the whole war, but Sherman's famous hardcore march to the sea only really affected Georgia, and even then it was mostly confined to a swath roughly 80 miles wide between Atlanta and Savannah. It's not like Sherman marched back and forth across the south burning everything. He totally wrecked Georgia, crippled the last bastions of southern industry and pioneered total war, but he didn't totally destroy the South. The eventual plan was to bring them back into the Union, not sow their fields with salt and make them unable to recover. 

And comparing it to Bangladesh is a bit much don't you think? Shit's sweltering hot but there was still plenty of money. 

But Civil War discussions aside, I think your plan to slowly murder every man, woman and child on the Iron Islands sounds much more in the wheelhouse of Stalin, Hitler or Andrew Jackson than Fightin' Wllie T. It's a pretty big leap to go from total war, economy ruining campaign to an extermination plan. 

The only direct killing I advocated was of the Greyjoys and the Priests of the Drowned God. Everything else I stated was against the Islands` economic foundation. Which, of course, would cause a lot death as a second order consequece. Eggs and omelettes and all that. Yes, Sherman`s depredations were mostly confined to Georgia, but Phil Sheridan emulated him in the Carolinas. LINCOLN`S eventual plan was to bring them back into the Union. But Lincoln wasn`t commanding troops in the field. Grant`s plan was to cause the South so much pain that they would never dare bear arms against the Federal Government again. There are a lot of colorful quotes from Grant and Sherridan regarding their reaving of the South, and most of them come to field reports sent to General Grant.  

I have destroyed over 2,000 barns filled with wheat, hay and farming implements; over 70 mills filled with flour and wheat, and have driven in front of the Army over 4,000 head of stock and have killed and issued to the troops not less than 3,000 sheep. Tomorrow I will continue the destruction down to Fisher’s Mill. When this is completed, the Valley from Winchester to Staunton, 92 miles, will have but little in it for man or beast.....from an Oct. 7, 1864 report to Gen. Grant from Gen. Sheridan.

   Sherman`s notion was to destroy the entire planter class that was the impetus for the slave economy and the rebellion itself. And between the deliberate economic destruction of the war and the policies of Reconstruction, it was a resounding success.

   Bengladesh is a valid comparison. Much of the rural South was made of subsistance farmers living without electricity or running water well into the 1950s. The sharecropping and tenant farming system "upgraded" the Southern economy from one of chattel slavery to one of serfdom. But at least this made for a greater degree of racial equality, since there were a huge number of newly impoverished whites after the war to be sucked into the debt-peonage system alongside the newly freed slaves. So....progress?

[Fire Eater]

On 7/27/2017 at 7:52 AM, devilish said:

The Iron Islands are simply too poor to thrive without reaving. If you force a land to choose between rebellion and starvation then it will choose the former everytime.

They actually haven't been starving since the ban on reaving. They still have agriculture and fishing to supplement what they lack from farming. It is also mentioned in AWOIAF that "Merchants and traders sailing from Lordsport on Pyke and the harbors of Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont spread out across the seas, calling at Lannisport, Oldtown, and the Free Cities, and returning with treasures their forebears had never dreamed of." They can likely derive more income from trade than reaving. 

I would start by making the Reader the Lord of the Iron Isles (I think the Greyjoys are headed for extinction at this point). He is basically Harmund the Host come again. 

[Orphalesion]

On 04/08/2017 at 6:20 AM, Graydon Hicks said:

well, you actually have to commit genocide, but you still have to break them, do to them what the andals did all the first men south of the neck, break their very culture, prove it inferior to that of the greenlanders. its their culture that calls for the reaving. mass deportations, rendering the entirety of the iron isles uninhabitable, save for tightly controlled mining operations, if the isles economic and environmental circumstances encourage reaving, then remove them from the equation some how. the population of the isles, the smallest of the kingdom provinces of the realm, should relatively small. making worshipping of the nihilistic drowned god outlawed, with severe penalties, (put tywin in charge) yes, it might be a re-enactment of the holocaust, but the jews never had the sheer antagonistic reputation of these pirates, so i wouldnt feel near so bad about their change of living conditions. make any iron born who attempted to resist go to the wall.

sorry, after everything i read in the world book, and everything that happened concerning balon and theon, i just cant stand these assholes

As far as I see it you are basically correct. And yes, Tywin would be pretty good for the job.

I however don't agree that it would necessarily turn into a "reenactment of the holocaust". First of all, the goal wouldn't be the complete eradication of all Iron Born, men, women and children like it was in that case, instead the aim would be eradication of their culture as it exists at present day.

I think a close analogy from History would be fate of the German Saxons after their conquest and forced conversion at the hands of Charlemagne. 1)Exiling of any problematic ruling class and any rebels to into less developed, less hospitable  border provibnces (in this case the Wall or the Gift) 2) Forced religious conversion at the pain of death 3) Complete assimilation into the larger empire and loss of a separate cultural identity. 

Supplanting the IB nobility with nobles from the Westerlands would already do wonders, for example. Then rename them something like the "Rocky Islands" and annex them into the Westerlands (they are ytoo small to be their own region anyway)

[Graydon Hicks]

i dont agree about bringing in outside lords to take over territory in the iron isles. the rot is too deep. its not just the lords that want to reave, its the whole barrel. if you are iron born, then you want to reave. its how you can improve standing in the culture. this imposition of a holding the lords as the only opinions that matter is a greenlander concept that was imposed by the targs. for a regular small folk iron born, the  only acceptable ways of life are either reaving or fishing, both occupations based on sailing. and fishing doesnt bring in all that much wealth, but reaving does, and it appeals to their religious and cultural imperative of paying the iron price for things, rather than the soft greenlander gold price. maybe do away with lords of the territory entirely, and reduce it so a governorship? still lords there from the mainland, but they are really claiming territory, it wont be inherited into their families. let the crown appoint a governor and aids to over see the forced conversion of the iron born culture and religion? when the governor or his aids die, the king appoints new ones.

[devilish]

On 12/08/2017 at 7:58 PM, Fire Eater said:

They actually haven't been starving since the ban on reaving. They still have agriculture and fishing to supplement what they lack from farming. It is also mentioned in AWOIAF that "Merchants and traders sailing from Lordsport on Pyke and the harbors of Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont spread out across the seas, calling at Lannisport, Oldtown, and the Free Cities, and returning with treasures their forebears had never dreamed of." They can likely derive more income from trade than reaving. 

I would start by making the Reader the Lord of the Iron Isles (I think the Greyjoys are headed for extinction at this point). He is basically Harmund the Host come again. 

The Iron islands are described as 'barely fertile rocks with few safe ports. Its seas are often stormy frequently creating havoc with their considerable force'. That doesn't look like a great trade post isn't it?

Instead of wasting time trying to re-invent the wheel, the iron islands should be handled to richer LPs/wardens who would have a better use for them. God knows how much the North needs a fleet, both in times of war (it makes then independent from the Riverlands) and in time of peace (new trade routes to Westeros + Essos, + it can finally exploit the shivering sea rich fauna who might end up feeding the North during winter).Also I am pretty sure that the Reach and the Westerlands wouldn't mind boosting their fleet + removing a potential threat at their back even if that meant spending some of their dosh on the iron islands people and infrastructure.  

 

 

[Brannis the Mannis]

I suggest burning most of the Iron fleet to the ground, and then allowing for any mainland fleet to pillage or loot the Iron Islands as they please, whenever they want. They will be allowed to kill, maim, rape, steal, take back women they have stolen as their wives, and they will be celebrated as heroes for it. 

Let's see how the Ironborn scum like it when they're on the receiving end of reaving. 

[TMIFairy]

13 minutes ago, Brannis the Mannis said:

Let's see how the Ironborn scum like it when they're on the receiving end of reaving. 

Jolly good idea.

I believe that Asha somewhere, when trying to whip up support for her candidacy, brushes upon the Ironborn getting off lightly for her father's rebellion, and says words to the effect of - "Balon's rebellion was crushed yet how many of your sisters ended up raped for it? None!"

[Fire Eater]

15 hours ago, devilish said:

The Iron islands are described as 'barely fertile rocks with few safe ports. Its seas are often stormy frequently creating havoc with their considerable force'. That doesn't look like a great trade post isn't it?

Instead of wasting time trying to re-invent the wheel, the iron islands should be handled to richer LPs/wardens who would have a better use for them. God knows how much the North needs a fleet, both in times of war (it makes then independent from the Riverlands) and in time of peace (new trade routes to Westeros + Essos, + it can finally exploit the shivering sea rich fauna who might end up feeding the North during winter).Also I am pretty sure that the Reach and the Westerlands wouldn't mind boosting their fleet + removing a potential threat at their back even if that meant spending some of their dosh on the iron islands people and infrastructure.  

 

 

The Ironborn have ships that can sail anywhere. They don't need foreign ships to come to their waters, just use the ships they have to sail to different ports. That's how they earned riches trading. 

Handing them to another region is recipe for a rebellion. The Ironborn have a strong sense of identity and culture. That is without mentioning that the kingdoms that share the Sunset Sea with them: the North, the Westerlands, the Reach and the riverlands, have been their traditional enemies for millenia since it was their shores they often reaved. It would be just as easy as putting Dorne under the LP of the Reach or the Stormlands.

Also, Ironborn longships aren't fishing boats. There are already fishing villages along the western shores and Bear Island. They likely already fish the Shivering Sea.   

[devilish]

8 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

The Ironborn have ships that can sail anywhere. They don't need foreign ships to come to their waters, just use the ships they have to sail to different ports. That's how they earned riches trading. 

Handing them to another region is recipe for a rebellion. The Ironborn have a strong sense of identity and culture. That is without mentioning that the kingdoms that share the Sunset Sea with them: the North, the Westerlands, the Reach and the riverlands, have been their traditional enemies for millenia since it was their shores they often reaved. It would be just as easy as putting Dorne under the LP of the Reach or the Stormlands.

Also, Ironborn longships aren't fishing boats. There are already fishing villages along the western shores and Bear Island. They likely already fish the Shivering Sea.   

In current circumstances very few people would trust the iron born anywhere near to their ports. That would change if the IB ships start sailing under Lannister, Tyrell or Stark protection. Also there's a huge distance between the iron islands and the shivering sea which would make such catch unfeasable. As part of the North, the IB ships could pitch camp at White harbor and sell their products in the North.

I come from a place that is so catholic that its name is found in the new testament. A country who challenged the great ottoman empire (ie the US of the time), who kicked the ass of two enormous Muslim armies + the Napoleonic troops (the latter dared stealing from churches). That didn't stop the protestant empire from ruling it. Their secret lie in making the economy work while not messing too much with religion. It helps

 

[Fire Eater]

18 hours ago, devilish said:

In current circumstances very few people would trust the iron born anywhere near to their ports. That would change if the IB ships start sailing under Lannister, Tyrell or Stark protection. Also there's a huge distance between the iron islands and the shivering sea which would make such catch unfeasable. As part of the North, the IB ships could pitch camp at White harbor and sell their products in the North.

I come from a place that is so catholic that its name is found in the new testament. A country who challenged the great ottoman empire (ie the US of the time), who kicked the ass of two enormous Muslim armies + the Napoleonic troops (the latter dared stealing from churches). That didn't stop the protestant empire from ruling it. Their secret lie in making the economy work while not messing too much with religion. It helps

 

Except that completely ignores that Ironborn have been trading at different ports for as long as they had ships. Pirates don't attack every port, and trying to raid the Free Cities would be suicide. Victarion was able to take on supplies at Volantis without any trouble, and Asha mentions stopping at the Arbor and "a score of smaller ports." Ironborn longships are used for trading as well as piracy. The Ironborn camp at White Harbor doesn't take into account that it is on the other side of Westeros, and there are ports on the North's western coast. 

That argument still fails to take into account that no one wants to be ruled over by their longtime enemies. The Ironborn would see it as a violation of their sovereignty. 

[Graydon Hicks]

26 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

Except that completely ignores that Ironborn have been trading at different ports for as long as they had ships. Pirates don't attack every port, and trying to raid the Free Cities would be suicide. Victarion was able to take on supplies at Volantis without any trouble, and Asha mentions stopping at the Arbor and "a score of smaller ports." Ironborn longships are used for trading as well as piracy. The Ironborn camp at White Harbor doesn't take into account that it is on the other side of Westeros, and there are ports on the North's western coast. 

That argument still fails to take into account that no one wants to be ruled over by their longtime enemies. The Ironborn would see it as a violation of their sovereignty. 

and victarion is not about to piss of a city with a fleet the size of volantis's, when he himself is so far from his own home waters with very little support. though i read something about euron being feared throughout the free cities as a pirate, though you have to grant he is crazy and has the balls to risk annihilation.