Final Solution to the Ironman question; Carrot or Stick?

[Dukhasinov]

Throughout the history of the Seven Kingdoms, the Iron Island have been, at best, faithless and disloyal vassals. At their worst they leap back into their old reaving ways, turning the west coast of Westeros into a bleeding wound, which seems to happen every time the Iron Throne`s power wains. (Haren the Red, the Red Kraken, Dagon the Last Reaver, and finally, Balon Twice Crowned.) Since the Andal Invasion, they have violently resisted every attempt to bring them into the mainstream of Westerosi culture. Aegon`s breaking of Harrenhal, and the union of Westeros under one crown made the Old Way impractical, but never really ended it for good. Civilized societies in the real world have had to deal with the agony of having an active and aggressive raiding culture as an immediate neighbor, and the solution is never simple or pleasant. While the Targaryens had their dragons, the threat of dragonfire was enough to keep the Ironmen in line. Once the dragons were gone, the kings no longer had the centralized executive power to enact a final solution. Robert`s Rebellion presented the best opportunity since Ser Aubrey Crakehal`s conquest of the Iron Islands to impose a lasting remedy to the problem. Fort the first time in generations, the Iron Islands were laid low, invaded and occupied by the lords of the Green Lands. Robert`s clemency to Balon Greyjoy seems inexplicable=y generous without context. Robert`s power lay in his uncanny talent for making friends out of enemies. He could knock you unconcious in a fight, wake you up with a slap, pick you up with a hearty laugh, buy you another beer, and make you a lifelong friend. It was largely this quality that won him his throne. Robert being Robert, it was all he could really do. Unfortunately, in Balon Greyjoy`s case, this was a poor solution.

   Tywin Lannister (The William Tecumseh Sherman of Westeros.) might have preferred a more long-term solution if he had been in overall command. He might have seen the unpleasant truth that the Ironborn would always be a blade hovering over the neck of the Seven Kingdoms. The royal army would not have the numbers, resources, or stomach to scour the islands clean of human life, but they could be removed as a threat for generations to come by tearing out the root of the Ironborns` culture and economy. I would suggest  Tywin`s March to the Sea start with the destruction of every boat too large to be rowed by one man. If this results in the destruction of the Iron Islands` fishing fleet, the resulting famine will result in far fewer Ironmen to trouble the kingdom in the future. Close the entrance of every mine that can be found. Seal the mouth of every major harbor-starting with Lordsport with boulders, or the scuttled hulks of the Iron Fleet. By the time they rebuild their fishing fleet, hopefully they will have stripped their forests so badly that they won`t have the timber to build longships. The Wardens of the West and North could enforce an embargo of trading timber to the Iron Islands.

   Next, attack the cultural underpinnings of Ironborn society. Tear down Pyke stone by stone, and have the Seastone Chair hauled off to King`s Landing to sit at the foot of the Iron Throne. During special occasions, sit the King`s Fool upon it wearing robes of seaweed and a dead squid for a hat. Gather up all the Priests of the Drowned God that can be found and impale them upon Nagga`s Hill. Take the head of every Greyjoy that can be found, except for Balon himself. Make him a collar of his crown and drag him on a royal progress from Lannisport to Oldtown, followed by an unceremonious execution. Tear down Nagga`s Ribs and have them carved into statues of the Seven. Not out of any genuine piety, mind you, but to humiliate the Ironmen and pierce the very heart of their religion. The Faith of the Seven never took root in the Islands because the Ironmen thought it a weakling`s creed. Maybe with all the servants and symbols of the Drowned God overthrown, they will decide that the Seven are stronger gods and be brought more into the Westerosi mainstream.

 

    ON THE OTHER HAND.....

Maybe Robert had the right idea, but a magnanimous victory did nothing to address the underlying problems of the Iron Islands. The Old Way is attractive because the Iron Islands are bleak and spare of resources. Reaving turns poor fisherman into wealthy men, and provides pride and social standing. Many Ironborn have adapted to the new geopolitical reality of a united Westeros by turning to commerce, but the huge distance around Westeros to reach the rich markets of the Narrow Sea put them at a big disadvantage to, say, White Harbor, or Oldtown. I then propose to dig a canal from the Blue Fork to Ironman`s Bay (using impressed Ironborn labor, of course). Ironborn ships could run a brisk trade in seal skins and mammoth ivory from the Frozen Shore. They could even subcontract with merchants out of Lannisport. The crown could offer a 10 year moritorium on royal customs duties to Islands flagged ships to encourage the startup in trade. It would also make the Iron Fleet a viable strategic asset to be called upon quickly by the Iron Throne to supplement the Royal Fleet. Incidentally, it would also seriously cut down the response time of the Royal Fleet to any future misconduct on the part of the Ironborn. After Stannis retires, the title of Master of Ships could be granted to a younger son of an Ironborn Great House, perhaps.

 

   So, what does everyone think? The carrot or the stick? Other thoughts? 

 

[TMIFairy]

Stick.

Resettle the lot of them to the Gift.

And throw all Downed Men overboard during transport too.

[Graydon Hicks]

while your carrot seems very reasonable and long term profitable solution, i say stick. i really hate the ironborn culture, they giving norse raiders of the real world a bad name, so i say burn it all to the ground, salt their fields, and hand the lot of them over to the ghiscari, let them see what true slavery feels like for the other end of the chain.

[Lord Vance II]

I mean, I tend to stay away from total genocide, so I don't know about your "stick." Robert probably should have wiped out the Greyjoys, but slowly killing everyone on the islands doesn't seem like the call. 

10 hours ago, Dukhasinov said:

Tywin Lannister (The William Tecumseh Sherman of Westeros.) might have preferred a more long-term solution if he had been in overall command. He might have seen the unpleasant truth that the Ironborn would always be a blade hovering over the neck of the Seven Kingdoms. The royal army would not have the numbers, resources, or stomach to scour the islands clean of human life, but they could be removed as a threat for generations to come by tearing out the root of the Ironborns` culture and economy. I would suggest  Tywin`s March to the Sea start with the destruction of every boat too large to be rowed by one man. If this results in the destruction of the Iron Islands` fishing fleet, the resulting famine will result in far fewer Ironmen to trouble the kingdom in the future. Close the entrance of every mine that can be found. Seal the mouth of every major harbor-starting with Lordsport with boulders, or the scuttled hulks of the Iron Fleet. By the time they rebuild their fishing fleet, hopefully they will have stripped their forests so badly that they won`t have the timber to build longships. The Wardens of the West and North could enforce an embargo of trading timber to the Iron Islands.

W..what do you think Sherman did? The South still exists, I've been there. 

If it was up to me, I'd have sent the Ironborn out to map the known world in force. They definitely aren't who you want as the face of your kingdom to a new people, but if they had some respectable emissaries and maesters it could work out. And if the Iron Throne ever had a serious dispute with a Free City or something, I'd call them up as Privateers. Both of the options could help build unity, but are admittedly not a whole lot. 

Trying to create more marriages between the island and the mainland would always help shore up ties. It happens already, but not super often. 

A Blue fork canal would be interesting, but I don't know if they could pull it off. Could I suppose. 

But overall, the lack of depth in Ironborn culture makes it nearly impossible to totally integrate them. I've always thought it may partially be that they are, as they claim, a different people entirely from elsewhere. 

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Use the carrot , have the Iron Throne to go into business with the Iron Born as long as they don't raid Westeros .

[The Hoare]

The carrot idea is insane. It would only make the ironborn even more insular than ever, and push the "greenlander" ironborn into the Old Way. Not only insane, but also impossible. The ironborn would never weakly accept the destruction of their holy places and fishing boats. The first Greyjoy Rebellion ended quickly because King Balon decided to bend the knee, but it could've lasted years and a lot of resources to truly end the rebellion if he didn't, fishers, common miners and farmers would all raise in rebellion agains't the invasors, probably even the thralls. The lords that buy metals from the Iron islands would stand agains't it too.

I don't think Tywin would ever destroy the culture and economy of the islands. He didn't wanted to destroy the northern and river lords that fought agains't the crown after they abandoned the rebellion. They're as much traitors as the Greyjoys and a even bigger threat to the Lannisters than the ironborn.

16 hours ago, Dukhasinov said:

Tear down Nagga`s Ribs and have them carved into statues of the Seven.

King Aenys I allowed lord Goren Greyjoy to banish the Seven from the Iron Islands. Another King could break this promise, but it would weaken the Crown's prestige.

Stick is the better idea. Seats in the Small Council and perharps a marriage within the royal family would cement their loyalty. The canal would be good too, if possible.

[TMIFairy]

Hoare, I have the impression that your have your carrots and sticks reversed

[John Doe]

Carrot. It's weird how many readers push for genocide of all the ironborn when their killcount in the last 300 years probably doesn't even come close to the Targaryen's, for example. 

Quellon Greyjoy I think showed that it can work. What the throne should do is to actively support lords who want to abandon the old way. For example, if I were king, I'd put a Harlaw or a Goodbrother in charge, not a Greyjoy. Maybe give them some good land to settle so they don't need to turn to reaving, but that would probably be problematic as every bit of land is already claimed.

Robert's approach wasn't terrible, he justed trusted the wrong person. But his mercy worked for a ton of other lords.

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

You can deduce by my screen name what I think of slavers, rapists, and raiders. I'd round up the reavers and make the nearest godswood look like fucking halloween-christmas. Heads on the ground, guts in the trees. Not necessarily in that order. 

Under new management -- by which I mean NOT Ironborn management -- the peasants and now-free thralls would prosper. Plenty of fishing, trade, and mining to go around, and they would get a generous share. And no Iron Fleet. Ever again. The fleet stays on the mainland.

They can keep their silly god. But if any of those priests preach the old ways, well, our heart trees are always thirsty. 

[Davjos]

After the Greyjoy Rebellion I'd personally take all their ships and give half/three quarters of them to Deepwood Motte/Barrowtown, give the rest to the King's Fleet and force someone with a strong claim on the Seastone Chair to sail West with a part of their fleet and explore/trade/make connections. 

 

Next I would give a anti-reaver a position in Lannisport/the Reach/Small Councill. This will ensure we fight fire with fire and have someone focussed on the realm instead of the Iron Islands. 

This would seriously handicap the Iron Islands for years to come, something I feel is needed. The Old Way is the Old Way for a reason, it hasn't been feasible for the last 300 years and Still they continue to rape and plunder the 'Green'. So I honestly think they deserve to be raped and plunderd themselves. I'd take all Thralls from them. The wood and iron it would take for them to rebuild and rearm should cripple them. And honestly, just forcibly uninherit Balon's last living heir. Let his line die with that shitface. 

 

So I'd give them the mild stick. 

[Jon Ice-Eyes]

Also, the thread name 'Final Solution'... really not a good look. Super bad. 

[Graydon Hicks]

i know the targs have large kill count, in individual wars, but the iron born have this way of just aggravating everybody. their lifestyle is so purposefully contradictory to the rest of westeros. that need to pillage and rape and murder and steal, even when trade would be far more profitable and saves lives, which they know it does. "We Do Not Sow" is a saying that they take to heart, and their own religion, and the lifestyle is almost nihilistic or entropy in nature.did cthulu sneak in when no one was watching and take over millennia ago? the iron born have been the bane of the western coasts of thousands of years, and any changes for a more peaceful life, or progressive nature, only last for a generation of so, then its straight back to pirating and reaving the coast from bear island to old town. i dont think any carrot would appease them, they would be right back tot he old ways the moment they could get away with it.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Surely you can find a way to make these points without using the term "final solution"? I don't know if you're being purposefully provocative, or just ignorant, but either way, stop it. 

[Orphalesion]

Usually I'm the first person who opts to use the carrot rather than the stick.

However the Iron Born have had ample time, some 300 years of it, to integrate themselves into larger Westeros and opt to become merchants and explorers rather than reavers and rapists. Plus everything we see of them on page has them glorify and yarn for their old lifestyle. 

So I regretfully have to agree with those that propose the more drastic courses of action. as horrifying and brutal those courses of actions might be. For the safety of the rest of Westeros the Iron Islands can't be allowed to continue to exist the way they do. 

I agree with others that only the ruling class needs to be dealt with by forcefully resettling them into the Gift or exiling them beyond the wall. In any case their new home should be far away from the sea, they should be stripped off their titles, weapons and basically be forced into serfdom. Their fleet and their castles should be destroyed.

The Iron Islands with their remaining population (thralls, peasants, fishers) would either be added to the Westerlands or become property of the Crown. While the north might have closer cultural ties, the missionary character of the Faith of the Seven allows for easier cultural conversion/change. The Faith of the Drowned God must be destroyed, no way around it. The Iron Islands should also be renamed into something else, along with its population (No more Iron Born) and the Bastard name. 

That would probably be the least horrible "stick" solution. The only other "less horrible" method I can think off would be to take away all their ships, deforesting the islands and basically quarantine them there, which would likely lead to mass starvation.

5 hours ago, Graydon Hicks said:

i know the targs have large kill count, in individual wars, but the iron born have this way of just aggravating everybody. their lifestyle is so purposefully contradictory to the rest of westeros. that need to pillage and rape and murder and steal, even when trade would be far more profitable and saves lives, which they know it does. "We Do Not Sow" is a saying that they take to heart, and their own religion, and the lifestyle is almost nihilistic or entropy in nature.did cthulu sneak in when no one was watching and take over millennia ago? the iron born have been the bane of the western coasts of thousands of years, and any changes for a more peaceful life, or progressive nature, only last for a generation of so, then its straight back to pirating and reaving the coast from bear island to old town. i dont think any carrot would appease them, they would be right back tot he old ways the moment they could get away with it.

^This. The Iron Born are just like the Dothraki in this manner. Those two peoples are also laughably "evil" when compared to the real world. In our history the Vikings eventually either 1)settled in nicer lands, assimilating into the local culture or 2) used the resources to improve their homes and eventually stopped being Vikings, while various warrior nomads over the ages conquered more advanced people and became their ruling classes. The Iron Born and Dothraki, meanwhile, practice killing, plundering and raping for the sake of killing, plundering and raping, tying them to both their cultures and religions.

[devilish]

The Iron Islands are simply too poor to thrive without reaving. If you force a land to choose between rebellion and starvation then it will choose the former everytime.

So how would I sort the IR situation. Simple, the IR are no more.

Balon loses his head and his children are taken as wards. The IR is divided into regions between the Westerlands (the Wyks), the Reach (Blacktyde and Saltcliffe) and Stannis (who'll hold the richest parts of the islands ie Pyke, Harlaw and Orkmont) with the major houses being forced to give wards or lose their lands. The Wyks, Blacktyde and Saltcliffe with prosper thanks to the gold flowing from the Reach and the Westerlands. Without the heavy burden of carrying the rest of the IR + the crown/dragonstone backup, Harlaw and Orkmont will prosper. 

 

[Lord Vance II]

26 minutes ago, devilish said:

Balon loses his head and his children are taken as wards. The IR is divided into regions between the Westerlands (the Wyks), the Reach (Blacktyde and Saltcliffe) and Stannis (who'll hold the richest parts of the islands ie Pyke, Harlaw and Orkmont) with the major houses being forced to give wards or lose their lands. The Wyks, Blacktyde and Saltcliffe with prosper thanks to the gold flowing from the Reach and the Westerlands. Without the heavy burden of carrying the rest of the IR + the crown/dragonstone backup, Harlaw and Orkmont will prosper. 

Probably the most reasonable solution on here (besides my own, of course). Maybe the North deserves cut more than the Reach though. Especially if it was Ned, Tywin and Stannis who did the heavy lifting in quashing the rebellion.

[The Sleeper]

This is a bit excessive. During the Targaryen reign, the Ironborne became belligerent three times and even before that they had long periods where they chiefly traded. The first time they got away with it because they it was in the context of the Dance (getting away with it, is relative provided the destruction Joanna Lannister visited on the islands). We don't know what happened with Dagon Greyjoy because Martin is saving it for the Dunk & Egg series. It still happened during other domestic troubles.

The one thing that is a mistake is that house Greyjoy continued to be recognized as overlords after the third insurrection they led. If they were not attainted they should have at least been relegated from overlords. It doesn't even need to be especially bloody. Balon and Theon could have been sent to the Wall and Asha married off somewhere. The castle could have been pulled down. That should dampen the ardor of the next overlords of the Iron Islands for rebellion. Robert probably pardoned Balon because he had fun.

The other thing that is a mistake is that the IT has this policy of not in my backyard about reaving. They don't care as long as it is donr on the Stepstones and beyond. Not only does this damage trade heading for the seven kingdoms, it allows the practice and the myth of the old way to perpetuate.

Another way to diffuse the sitaution, would be, instead of having them be pirates, to hire them to hunt pirates. They are also the finest sailors, they really should hold positions in the royal fleet. This would provide an outlet for the Ironborn to go out and make their fortune in other ways.

[TMIFairy]

20 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Another way to diffuse the sitaution, would be, instead of having them be pirates, to hire them to hunt pirates. They are also the finest sailors, they really should hold positions in the royal fleet. This would provide an outlet for the Ironborn to go out and make their fortune in other ways.

This ties with the issue of overpopulation somebody mentioned.

Work?

As in trade, serve as seelsails to hunt other pirates?

Oh, no, that is not our way!

We! Do! Not! Sow!

We! Want! We! Take!

This is their "culture" - or at least the "culture" (mindset) of a sizeable part of the population. This leaves genocide or mass deportations as the only solutions. Either approach including the extermination of the ruling class and the "clergy" of the Drowned God.

 

[The Sleeper]

4 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

This ties with the issue of overpopulation somebody mentioned.

Work?

As in trade, serve as seelsails to hunt other pirates?

Oh, no, that is not our way!

We! Do! Not! Sow!

We! Want! We! Take!

This is their "culture" - or at least the "culture" (mindset) of a sizeable part of the population. This leaves genocide or mass deportations as the only solutions. Either approach including the extermination of the ruling class and the "clergy" of the Drowned God.

 

And there is significant portion of the lords who mind their own business. Even the rest stay quiet for the most part. If there was gold involved and a chance to make a name there would have been plenty of volunteers.

[Stormking902]

The only true solution is to exterminate house Greyjoy for their defiance and install house Harlaw as the new Great house, with the reader as lord I would grant him lands in the North probably a lot of the gift so that the Ironborn can logically survive without reaving in the first place and if house Umber had something to say I would tell house Stark handle it or I will. I would force marriages upon houses so family ties were built, I would destroy 2/3 of the Iron fleet untill there loyalty is assured. Each house gives up a "ward" for even more security.  

I would PROMISE this would be the last chance for the Ironborn the next time would be genocide unfortunately, I would have this in writting and make each lord sign so that they ALL know the consequences of another rebellion.  I wouldnt actually go threw with the genocide but I would have my poker face on for sure lol.